It's what I already thought a couple months back: if there's already a 5 and an 8, it shouldn't be too hard to design a 6 and a 7... It's going to be a very interesting Olympic "sea trials" in the near future.The C5 was designed to contend for the lightweight women's category at the Olympics (Which does not exist), and was implied that it is intended for these new rigs (C6 and C8) to replace the Standard and Radial at the Olympics.
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the ultimate aim is to have four rigs, but only talked about the three that we know about.
Well, there obviously is an outhaul in the picture, so you mean it's not remotely controllable? The deck cleats would then be for the cunningham and the vang (or "gnav"), right?There is no outhaul! the Cunningham line appears to run up the mast and work from the top, and the Gnav is visible in the below picture.
On a thread on another website, it suggests that there was going to be a C7, but it was delayed. Maybe that will be the fourth rig?Thank you Gryphon for this firsthand information!
It's what I already thought a couple months back: if there's already a 5 and an 8, it shouldn't be too hard to design a 6 and a 7... It's going to be a very interesting Olympic "sea trials" in the near future.
Well, there obviously is an outhaul in the picture, so you mean it's not remotely controllable? The deck cleats would then be for the cunningham and the vang (or "gnav"), right?
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A new hull in Australia is only about $6,000, and so for us it will actually be cheaper ($9600 compared to newly priced $11,235 for a pre order before the worlds next January in Melbourne). For me, whose 1999 worlds boat cost $2,000 with the two rigs, I would happily buy another rig, especially because it was Bethwaite designed. Lasers retain their value well, and thats what people like in an old boat. Waszps in Australia are about $15,000, and so for many people a rig upgrade is extremely viable.Pricing is bizarre! 3600 AUD = 2220 euros / US $2500.
Let me guess: only one supplier for all parts, off course. No room for other, cheaper suppliers.
Over here, a new Laser with the new set-up will hit the 9000 euros easily. For consideration: the step towards a Waszp Foiling dinghy becomes very small. Given the extreme growing popularity of the Waszp here in Holland, a lot of young sailors will not even look at the old-fashioned (...) Laser and step onto a mini-America Cup racer!
In the UK, the Aero will become a sensible alternative; more and more UK sailors (even top Laser sailors - just look at the result lists of Laser venues and Aero venues) are making a detour to the Aero. When you have to decide between an old design with a new sail, or a completely & balanced new design, things will be in favour of the modern Aero dinghy.
Upgrading the Laser is a good idea. Adding 25%+ to the price isn't...
Menno
From what it sounded like when Hurling addressed us competitors at the briefing the aim is for the current rigs to exist side by side with the C-Series rigs for a few years, and for the new rigs to eventually replace the current rigs for the Olympics and other high level events with some support still available for the old rigs.Are these rigs intended solely to maintain Olympic status? Or do they want to completely supplant the existing rigs within the class?
I don't think WS is going to set any obstacles to whatever the class wants to do. Most member nations will most likely prefer upgrading just the Olympic rig rather than the whole boat.the aim is for the current rigs to exist side by side with the C-Series rigs for a few years, and for the new rigs to eventually replace the current rigs for the Olympics and other high level events with some support still available for the old rigs.
But, to do that, they have to go through the political process that is World Sailing
Will find out today for you. Hurling did mention that the sails can be bought separately from the package, which suggests that it *might* be only the sail that needs to be swapped out.Indeed, a 4.7 rig with carbon top part mast is more expensive than the C5. When you still use an alloy top, things are the other way around
But after getting a 4.7 rig, the whole Laser concept was relatively cheap because one only had to obtain a new lower part + sail. I can't see (read) that this system works with the new sails as well. Perhaps it can. That would make things a little more 'comfortable' for the wallet.
I wouldn't worry about that because if...the whole Laser concept was relatively cheap because one only had to obtain a new lower part + sail. I can't see (read) that this system works with the new sails as well. Perhaps it can.
...then it means that the mast splits to at least two, or even more likely three pieces. I imagine that the lowest, most expensive part is identical for the different sizes, and you switch the upper and/or middle pieces. (The current system is of course the opposite, but that's because of material/technology and history.)the rig is designed to be able to be put in oversized luggage at the airport
Good question. Were that to happen, I doubt that the class membership would embrace any radical equipment changes no matter how the leaders pushed for any. We'd get the composite lower for the Radial (which is being tested), but that would probably be the end of major technical development for a long time to come.I wonder if the Laser loses Olympic status if these new rigs will still be launched
I don't think LP has done really any pioneering work in this sense, ever - it's always the Australians, with or without help from the Japanese/Takao Otani.Is LP even involved in this effort? On the surface, it appears to be a collaboration between the ILCA and PSA.,
LP and the whole Laser business model have to change if the class is going to stay Olympic. And despite the impression one gets from RS Sailing and the sailing press, this is not just a "Laser vs. Aero" match.why not just buy an Aero and not have to worry about LP?
Agree that I doubt LP has had anything to do with this. I wonder if the new C series stuff would fall under the Laser global agreements, meaning that LP would have the exclusive rights in their territories, or not? I know WS does not want "monopoly classes" but I am not sure how that problem gets solved unless they bring back the Finn and EuropeI don't think LP has done really any pioneering work in this sense, ever - it's always the Australians, with or without help from the Japanese/Takao Otani.
LP and the whole Laser business model have to change if the class is going to stay Olympic. And despite the impression one gets from RS Sailing and the sailing press, this is not just a "Laser vs. Aero" match.
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Laser equipment is either "builder supplied" or "optional". A whole rig would definitely fall under the former category, so the way things are now, it would have to be sold through LP in most parts of the world. The way things are a year from now, no one knows.I wonder if the new C series stuff would fall under the Laser global agreements, meaning that LP would have the exclusive rights in their territories, or not?
I believe WS is ok with any level of monopoly unless it potentially breaks international competition laws. They just want to stay out of legal trouble, and not to risk their relations with the IOC.I know WS does not want "monopoly classes"
What? Could you give a source?LP seems to working with Doyle on a new, bigger, monofilm sail - that could add to the confusion.
TBH I am skeptical about the Doyle post being legit. Currently, North and Hyde are the only sailmakers for lasers. Also, notice the mast is carbon fibreRegarding the Doyle sail - can you access the Facebook post I’ve attached? There are several comments on the post from Judith Krimski that sound legit. I think there is a mention of it in the new issue of Laser Sailor that implies that it’s a bigger rig LP wants to offer - sort of a Rooster sized sail. View attachment 29607
Regarding the Doyle sail - can you access the Facebook post I’ve attached? There are several comments on the post from Judith Krimski that sound legit. I think there is a mention of it in the new issue of Laser Sailor that implies that it’s a bigger rig LP wants to offer - sort of a Rooster sized sail.
Not necessarily. What we vote on is class rules - things we do (or don't do) to our boats, while matters like sail cuts and spar and foil materials are in the not-public construction manual, which is what the builders must follow. (This gets close to the question which no one has been able to answer: is everything that a licensed builder produces legal by definition?)Wouldn't there have to be a class vote on something like this?
The new rigs are certainly not intended to be used in the same fleets as the current ones, at least not without handicapping. They're going to form their own new classes, and this leads to the question of fragmentation. Who sails what in the future and will there be reasonably big fleets for everyone?These are what I would call "wholesale" changes that obsolete current rigs/equipment.
Certainly without class approval you're not going to be able to show up at a Laser regatta and don your new Doyle, (or any other) rig and get scored.
Not necessarily. What we vote on is class rules - things we do (or don't do) to our boats, while matters like sail cuts and spar and foil materials are in the not-public construction manual, which is what the builders must follow. (This gets close to the question which no one has been able to answer: is everything that a licensed builder produces legal by definition?)
The new rigs are certainly not intended to be used in the same fleets as the current ones, at least not without handicapping. They're going to form their own new classes, and this leads to the question of fragmentation. Who sails what in the future and will there be reasonably big fleets for everyone?
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Ken Hurling’s intention is that it is just a class.
No Masters. No Juniors. No Corinthians. Just a class.
As long as we start by limiting the Vang to the original 4:1 and remove all the outhaul controls from the deck.
Lasers up to seventeen years old now don't need fundamental upgrades to the control systems, and boats older than that are quite inexpensive even after upgrading. And you don't have to spend 500 dollars on it.it's hard to bring new blood into a class when you tell a new sailor that they need to spend another $500 to updated the vang and rigging
It's a one-design fleet. It's irrelevant whether the technology is "old" or "new", as long as it's more or less the same for all. The Laser hasn't represented "new" sailing technology for decades, so there must be some other reasons why serious racers are attracted to the class.telling those who are serious about racing that they can't have any new sail technology.
LP hasn't sued anyone besides Bruce Kirby and Global Sailing, if I remember it right. What they tried to do was to take over the Sunfish class by means of a rival class association, which WS stopped quite effectively.the tendency for LP to sue it's own class organization
If you think you're the wrong size for a given class, switch. If the C8 rig will broaden the weight range of the Laser, fine, but the other weight groups will have to choose whether to go for the smaller "C" rigs or not.Allowing those of us who are over 190 lbs. to run an 8 meter sail is still a much lower sacrifice that the current rules where a 190+ LB sailor has to run the same 7M sail as a 145 lb sailor.
Nonsense. Any upgrades aren't "big money" or a big deal, aren't "used against" anyone, and don't concern the 40,000 latest boats anyway.The guys above who say they want it like the good old days don't really want that. They just want their big money upgrades to use against new guys. The Laser was not designed with what is currently run at the big races.