The C5: What we know so far

LoonyGryphon

New Member
At the currently running Australian Championships I was fortunate enough to talk to ALCA president Ken Hurling, and he gave me some information on the C5, which is currently on display in Tasmania at the event. Below is some of my notes on the conversation.
The rig is able to be tested, and I'll take it out if I have time and give a review.

These are the currently suggested prices for the full package: the mast, boom, sails and rigging, in Australian Dollars.
C5: $2000
C6: $2600
C8: $3600

The mlylar sails will be able to be ordered in different colours, and the rig is designed to be able to be put in oversized luggage at the airport, reducing charter prices.
Unfortunately, the rigs will still only be available through the current dealers (In my case, PSA).

The C5 was designed to contend for the lightweight women's category at the Olympics (Which does not exist), and was implied that it is intended for these new rigs (C6 and C8) to replace the Standard and Radial at the Olympics.
The current 4.7 doesn't look like it fits the boat, so the C5 is more visually appealing

There is no outhaul! the Cunningham line appears to run up the mast and work from the top, and the Gnav is visible in the below picture.
The overall rigging reminds me of a 29er (Especially the boom), which is to be expected as it is Julian Bethwaite designed.
Somewhat confusingly, Hurley mentioned that the ultimate aim is to have four rigs, but only talked about the three that we know about. Perhaps keeping one of the old rigs?
Finally, the names are not set in stone, but the rigs should come out this year.
C5.JPG
 
Thank you Gryphon for this firsthand information!

The C5 was designed to contend for the lightweight women's category at the Olympics (Which does not exist), and was implied that it is intended for these new rigs (C6 and C8) to replace the Standard and Radial at the Olympics.
...
the ultimate aim is to have four rigs, but only talked about the three that we know about.
It's what I already thought a couple months back: if there's already a 5 and an 8, it shouldn't be too hard to design a 6 and a 7... It's going to be a very interesting Olympic "sea trials" in the near future.

There is no outhaul! the Cunningham line appears to run up the mast and work from the top, and the Gnav is visible in the below picture.
Well, there obviously is an outhaul in the picture, so you mean it's not remotely controllable? The deck cleats would then be for the cunningham and the vang (or "gnav"), right?
As in the video that was published earlier, there is a crease some 10 cm above the clew, which is most likely where the cunningham is attached to the sail, inside the pocket?

Even if you don't test it, could you take and post some more pictures...? Please :D

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Thank you Gryphon for this firsthand information!

It's what I already thought a couple months back: if there's already a 5 and an 8, it shouldn't be too hard to design a 6 and a 7... It's going to be a very interesting Olympic "sea trials" in the near future.

Well, there obviously is an outhaul in the picture, so you mean it's not remotely controllable? The deck cleats would then be for the cunningham and the vang (or "gnav"), right?
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On a thread on another website, it suggests that there was going to be a C7, but it was delayed. Maybe that will be the fourth rig?

And Yes, the outhaul is not controllable, like on a 29er, and the port deck cleat in the picture is for the gnav.
Will post more pictures when I get them.
 
Pricing is bizarre! 3600 AUD = 2220 euros / US $2500.

Let me guess: only one supplier for all parts, off course. No room for other, cheaper suppliers.

Over here, a new Laser with the new set-up will hit the 9000 euros easily. For consideration: the step towards a Waszp Foiling dinghy becomes very small. Given the extreme growing popularity of the Waszp here in Holland, a lot of young sailors will not even look at the old-fashioned (...) Laser and step onto a mini-America Cup racer!

In the UK, the Aero will become a sensible alternative; more and more UK sailors (even top Laser sailors - just look at the result lists of Laser venues and Aero venues) are making a detour to the Aero. When you have to decide between an old design with a new sail, or a completely & balanced new design, things will be in favour of the modern Aero dinghy.

Upgrading the Laser is a good idea. Adding 25%+ to the price isn't...


Menno
 
Pricing is bizarre! 3600 AUD = 2220 euros / US $2500.

Let me guess: only one supplier for all parts, off course. No room for other, cheaper suppliers.

Over here, a new Laser with the new set-up will hit the 9000 euros easily. For consideration: the step towards a Waszp Foiling dinghy becomes very small. Given the extreme growing popularity of the Waszp here in Holland, a lot of young sailors will not even look at the old-fashioned (...) Laser and step onto a mini-America Cup racer!

In the UK, the Aero will become a sensible alternative; more and more UK sailors (even top Laser sailors - just look at the result lists of Laser venues and Aero venues) are making a detour to the Aero. When you have to decide between an old design with a new sail, or a completely & balanced new design, things will be in favour of the modern Aero dinghy.

Upgrading the Laser is a good idea. Adding 25%+ to the price isn't...


Menno
A new hull in Australia is only about $6,000, and so for us it will actually be cheaper ($9600 compared to newly priced $11,235 for a pre order before the worlds next January in Melbourne). For me, whose 1999 worlds boat cost $2,000 with the two rigs, I would happily buy another rig, especially because it was Bethwaite designed. Lasers retain their value well, and thats what people like in an old boat. Waszps in Australia are about $15,000, and so for many people a rig upgrade is extremely viable.
 
Are these rigs intended solely to maintain Olympic status? Or do they want to completely supplant the existing rigs within the class?
 
Are these rigs intended solely to maintain Olympic status? Or do they want to completely supplant the existing rigs within the class?
From what it sounded like when Hurling addressed us competitors at the briefing the aim is for the current rigs to exist side by side with the C-Series rigs for a few years, and for the new rigs to eventually replace the current rigs for the Olympics and other high level events with some support still available for the old rigs.

But, to do that, they have to go through the political process that is World Sailing
 
Those prices look actually quite reasonable, especially considering that you're getting all-composite spars and a fully-battened laminate sail +new vang and cunningham equipment. The C5 would actually be cheaper than a 4.7 rig.

the aim is for the current rigs to exist side by side with the C-Series rigs for a few years, and for the new rigs to eventually replace the current rigs for the Olympics and other high level events with some support still available for the old rigs.

But, to do that, they have to go through the political process that is World Sailing
I don't think WS is going to set any obstacles to whatever the class wants to do. Most member nations will most likely prefer upgrading just the Olympic rig rather than the whole boat.
The real problem is that this will further fragment the class, which is especially problematic in smaller fleets. Which rig are you going to use in five years? And what about your friends in a national masters fleet, for example?

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Hmm. Maybe we need another thread, but I'll throw in my two cents.

Even if these prices are reasonable for a composite spars and laminate sails, they are at the level that would have me thinking about just buying a whole new boat. And if the plan is to eventually upgrade the class at the club level, the time to do this was five years ago before these new classes started appearing.

edit - I now realize the fallacy of something like this happening five years ago given all the recent class drama (couldn't even get the Mk II sail), but the new classes have still stolen much thunder.
 
Indeed, a 4.7 rig with carbon top part mast is more expensive than the C5. When you still use an alloy top, things are the other way around

But after getting a 4.7 rig, the whole Laser concept was relatively cheap because one only had to obtain a new lower part + sail. I can't see (read) that this system works with the new sails as well. Perhaps it can. That would make things a little more 'comfortable' for the wallet.
 
Indeed, a 4.7 rig with carbon top part mast is more expensive than the C5. When you still use an alloy top, things are the other way around

But after getting a 4.7 rig, the whole Laser concept was relatively cheap because one only had to obtain a new lower part + sail. I can't see (read) that this system works with the new sails as well. Perhaps it can. That would make things a little more 'comfortable' for the wallet.
Will find out today for you. Hurling did mention that the sails can be bought separately from the package, which suggests that it *might* be only the sail that needs to be swapped out.
 
the whole Laser concept was relatively cheap because one only had to obtain a new lower part + sail. I can't see (read) that this system works with the new sails as well. Perhaps it can.
I wouldn't worry about that because if...
the rig is designed to be able to be put in oversized luggage at the airport
...then it means that the mast splits to at least two, or even more likely three pieces. I imagine that the lowest, most expensive part is identical for the different sizes, and you switch the upper and/or middle pieces. (The current system is of course the opposite, but that's because of material/technology and history.)

But we'll find out soon.

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A few thoughts, questions, etc......I wonder if the Laser loses Olympic status if these new rigs will still be launched, and how much interest will there be in them? If/when they are introduced, there certainly will be issues with fragmentation of the less-serious racers who probably won't want to pay to upgrade. We already have 3 fleets at many regattas - full, radial and 4.7 - will we now need 5 or 6 fleets???

Lastly, a big reason to not bother upgrading and instead just switching to an Aero is, in most of the world at least, our "beloved" manufacturer, LP. There is no reason to think they will become better and more helpful than they have been, and if we lose Olympic status their interest in adhering to the construction manual would likely wane. So why not just buy an Aero and not have to worry about LP?
 
Is LP even involved in this effort? On the surface, it appears to be a collaboration between the ILCA and PSA.,
 
I wonder if the Laser loses Olympic status if these new rigs will still be launched
Good question. Were that to happen, I doubt that the class membership would embrace any radical equipment changes no matter how the leaders pushed for any. We'd get the composite lower for the Radial (which is being tested), but that would probably be the end of major technical development for a long time to come.

Is LP even involved in this effort? On the surface, it appears to be a collaboration between the ILCA and PSA.,
I don't think LP has done really any pioneering work in this sense, ever - it's always the Australians, with or without help from the Japanese/Takao Otani.

why not just buy an Aero and not have to worry about LP?
LP and the whole Laser business model have to change if the class is going to stay Olympic. And despite the impression one gets from RS Sailing and the sailing press, this is not just a "Laser vs. Aero" match.

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I don't think LP has done really any pioneering work in this sense, ever - it's always the Australians, with or without help from the Japanese/Takao Otani.

LP and the whole Laser business model have to change if the class is going to stay Olympic. And despite the impression one gets from RS Sailing and the sailing press, this is not just a "Laser vs. Aero" match.
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Agree that I doubt LP has had anything to do with this. I wonder if the new C series stuff would fall under the Laser global agreements, meaning that LP would have the exclusive rights in their territories, or not? I know WS does not want "monopoly classes" but I am not sure how that problem gets solved unless they bring back the Finn and Europe :)

On top of all this, LP seems to working with Doyle on a new, bigger, monofilm sail - that could add to the confusion.

I think RS has done a good job positioning themselves as the leading dog in the fight. BB
 
I wonder if the new C series stuff would fall under the Laser global agreements, meaning that LP would have the exclusive rights in their territories, or not?
Laser equipment is either "builder supplied" or "optional". A whole rig would definitely fall under the former category, so the way things are now, it would have to be sold through LP in most parts of the world. The way things are a year from now, no one knows.

I know WS does not want "monopoly classes"
I believe WS is ok with any level of monopoly unless it potentially breaks international competition laws. They just want to stay out of legal trouble, and not to risk their relations with the IOC.

LP seems to working with Doyle on a new, bigger, monofilm sail - that could add to the confusion.
What? Could you give a source?

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Regarding the Doyle sail - can you access the Facebook post I’ve attached? There are several comments on the post from Judith Krimski that sound legit. I think there is a mention of it in the new issue of Laser Sailor that implies that it’s a bigger rig LP wants to offer - sort of a Rooster sized sail.
7C94F3BE-A045-43E9-830F-38542CEEF536.png
 
Regarding the Doyle sail - can you access the Facebook post I’ve attached? There are several comments on the post from Judith Krimski that sound legit. I think there is a mention of it in the new issue of Laser Sailor that implies that it’s a bigger rig LP wants to offer - sort of a Rooster sized sail. View attachment 29607
TBH I am skeptical about the Doyle post being legit. Currently, North and Hyde are the only sailmakers for lasers. Also, notice the mast is carbon fibre
 
Thanks Beldar - I already found the Facebook pictures but couldn't read the comments. And I agree with Gryphon: that seems very sketchy, not being sure if it's ILCA or LP they're working for, not knowing that Julian/PSA are still going forward with the "C" rigs, etc. No sign of Tracy, either :D

LG, did you get more pictures of the C5 in Tasmania?

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Regarding the Doyle sail - can you access the Facebook post I’ve attached? There are several comments on the post from Judith Krimski that sound legit. I think there is a mention of it in the new issue of Laser Sailor that implies that it’s a bigger rig LP wants to offer - sort of a Rooster sized sail.

OK, it isn't mentioned in the Laser Sailor - pretty sure it is in the November or December ILCA NA Exec Comm minutes. I'm not sure where I saw them since they are not on the website. If I recall correctly that mention implied it was more of a Rooster big sail, but the Facebook comments contradict that.
 
Ok. Before we all get carried away....Wouldn't there have to be a class vote on something like this?

Last time we went through a new Std sail change I bought the old version 3 days before it was announced that the MK II was available for ordering.

However, that was a SMALL change compared to all this stuff that's being tossed around. These are what I would call "wholesale" changes that obsolete current rigs/equipment.

Certainly without class approval you're not going to be able to show up at a Laser regatta and don your new Doyle, (or any other) rig and get scored.
 
Wouldn't there have to be a class vote on something like this?
Not necessarily. What we vote on is class rules - things we do (or don't do) to our boats, while matters like sail cuts and spar and foil materials are in the not-public construction manual, which is what the builders must follow. (This gets close to the question which no one has been able to answer: is everything that a licensed builder produces legal by definition?)

These are what I would call "wholesale" changes that obsolete current rigs/equipment.

Certainly without class approval you're not going to be able to show up at a Laser regatta and don your new Doyle, (or any other) rig and get scored.
The new rigs are certainly not intended to be used in the same fleets as the current ones, at least not without handicapping. They're going to form their own new classes, and this leads to the question of fragmentation. Who sails what in the future and will there be reasonably big fleets for everyone?

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I will second what LaLi wrote. It's my understanding (!) that drastic changes to the Laser need to be agreed upon by all manufacturers (PSA and LP, and maybe also the Japanese company). An example would be the MkII sail. But how this would play out for the various new rigs is anybody's guess.
 
Here’s an update:
I couldn’t get more pictures because the rig flew to Japan after I got the above shot. Only the C5 is in existence at the moment, but the other rigs are in production

I’ve talked with the only woman who was able to sail one (Has come no. 3 at many world champs in 4.7) and she told me this:

There will be at least 10 more rigs produced and stationed in Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne for the public, of all weight ranges, to try.

Ken Hurling’s intention is that it is just a class.

No Masters. No Juniors. No Corinthians. Just a class.
 
Not necessarily. What we vote on is class rules - things we do (or don't do) to our boats, while matters like sail cuts and spar and foil materials are in the not-public construction manual, which is what the builders must follow. (This gets close to the question which no one has been able to answer: is everything that a licensed builder produces legal by definition?)

The new rigs are certainly not intended to be used in the same fleets as the current ones, at least not without handicapping. They're going to form their own new classes, and this leads to the question of fragmentation. Who sails what in the future and will there be reasonably big fleets for everyone?

_

Thanks. My opinion is something like this would not serve the class well.
 
Handicapping all those rig variations would be a headache, I reckon... things sure have changed since I sailed Laser #2069, LOL. Whatever happened to the original old school Laser with 76 square feet of pure bliss for a mainsail? And if these folks are gonna doctor the rigs, why not doctor EVERYTHING? Carbon fiber hulls, carbon fiber rigs, state-of-the-art sails & hardware, the whole nine yards. Meh, this is why I'm not into racing, with all the rules & regs & hassles... gimme an old school Laser every time and lemme set a course for the islands, no headache required. Like Johnny Cash said, "WHAT DO I CARE?" :rolleyes:

I won the only race I ever bothered to enter, and I won it by 11 seconds against some pretty good competition, so it was exciting enough but I already knew it wasn't for me... the tactical decision which led me to choose the slightly superior side of the course, well, that was cool too, but not cool enough to make me want to sit in rush hour traffic for the rest of my nautical career. Gimme the open road with no marine traffic whatsoever, that's much more my style... and during all those island voyages made in past decades, I never did see any racers executing landings on Los Coronados. :D

Shark-infested waters too, those seal & sea lion rookeries might as well be buffet tables for 2-ton Great Whites, LOL. That's no lie either, Great Whites weighing over 2 tons have been pulled from the waters off San Diego. I always used to hunker down in the cockpit when sailing into the lee of the islands, though a hungry 2-ton Great White could easily slam-dunk a Laser like flippin' an hors d'oeuvre tray at a party, AYE??? I just saw "JAWS" again in some TV marathon, so I'm visualizing yours truly sliding like Quint down Ol' Whitey's gullet... :eek:

WITH LUCK, I'LL BE HAMMERED WHEN IT HAPPENS, THAT WAY I WON'T FEEL A THING... HERE'S TO INDIGESTION FOR OL' WHITEY TOO, LOL. ;)

 
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If you really want to stick with a classic Laser design, I'm in. As long as we start by limiting the Vang to the original 4:1 and remove all the outhaul controls from the deck. Otherwise I'm buying an 8M fathead sail.
 
The reason is that it's hard to bring new blood into a class when you tell a new sailor that they need to spend another $500 to updated the vang and rigging, while at the same time telling those who are serious about racing that they can't have any new sail technology. The former keeps new guys away and the latter, combined with the tendency for LP to sue it's own class organization, leaves the Laser as a stepping stone to something better and not a premium class as it has been in the past.
Allowing those of us who are over 190 lbs. to run an 8 meter sail is still a much lower sacrifice that the current rules where a 190+ LB sailor has to run the same 7M sail as a 145 lb sailor.
The guys above who say they want it like the good old days don't really want that. They just want their big money upgrades to use against new guys. The Laser was not designed with what is currently run at the big races.
 
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it's hard to bring new blood into a class when you tell a new sailor that they need to spend another $500 to updated the vang and rigging
Lasers up to seventeen years old now don't need fundamental upgrades to the control systems, and boats older than that are quite inexpensive even after upgrading. And you don't have to spend 500 dollars on it.

telling those who are serious about racing that they can't have any new sail technology.
It's a one-design fleet. It's irrelevant whether the technology is "old" or "new", as long as it's more or less the same for all. The Laser hasn't represented "new" sailing technology for decades, so there must be some other reasons why serious racers are attracted to the class.

the tendency for LP to sue it's own class organization
LP hasn't sued anyone besides Bruce Kirby and Global Sailing, if I remember it right. What they tried to do was to take over the Sunfish class by means of a rival class association, which WS stopped quite effectively.

Allowing those of us who are over 190 lbs. to run an 8 meter sail is still a much lower sacrifice that the current rules where a 190+ LB sailor has to run the same 7M sail as a 145 lb sailor.
If you think you're the wrong size for a given class, switch. If the C8 rig will broaden the weight range of the Laser, fine, but the other weight groups will have to choose whether to go for the smaller "C" rigs or not.

The guys above who say they want it like the good old days don't really want that. They just want their big money upgrades to use against new guys. The Laser was not designed with what is currently run at the big races.
Nonsense. Any upgrades aren't "big money" or a big deal, aren't "used against" anyone, and don't concern the 40,000 latest boats anyway.

The cost of a few blocks and cleats and a few pieces of rope is less than 10 % of a complete new, undoubtedly significantly faster rig. The former doesn't and hasn't split the existing fleets, but the latter will, and that's what I am personally worried about.

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I had a chance to look over the C5 rig as well, and had a chat to Ken Hurling about it.

It’s a great idea, and I can’t see a long term future for the class without some bold steps like this. All the gradual changes in the past have taken years to implement and have had to try to match the performance characteristics of the superseded equipment. This isn’t sustainable. A bold step that will position the class for the next couple of decades is what’s needed.

If you have any doubt, ask the kids currently sailing 4.7s what they think. They’re the future of the class, and they’re having to use a silly sail shoehorned onto the existing spars. It’s not fun. The C5 is a new rig from the ground up, not a compromise like the 4.7 was.

The average healthy woman around the world is about 5’3 and 58-60kgs. To be competitive in a Radial you need to be at least six inches taller and 8-10 kg heavier than that. If the Laser class can create a new, top quality rig that caters for the average weight and height then they’ll be able to tap into a potentially huge market.

The intent isn’t to replace the 4.7 but to provide an alternative choice. I suspect the market will quickly decide which they prefer.

Lastly, I suspect that if the rig doesn’t use the Laser branding/trademark, then all the builders don’t need to agree. The class can do whatever they like with their class rules, etc, they just can’t violate the trademark in doing so.
 

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