The C5: What we know so far

Thread starter #1
At the currently running Australian Championships I was fortunate enough to talk to ALCA president Ken Hurling, and he gave me some information on the C5, which is currently on display in Tasmania at the event. Below is some of my notes on the conversation.
The rig is able to be tested, and I'll take it out if I have time and give a review.

These are the currently suggested prices for the full package: the mast, boom, sails and rigging, in Australian Dollars.
C5: $2000
C6: $2600
C8: $3600

The mlylar sails will be able to be ordered in different colours, and the rig is designed to be able to be put in oversized luggage at the airport, reducing charter prices.
Unfortunately, the rigs will still only be available through the current dealers (In my case, PSA).

The C5 was designed to contend for the lightweight women's category at the Olympics (Which does not exist), and was implied that it is intended for these new rigs (C6 and C8) to replace the Standard and Radial at the Olympics.
The current 4.7 doesn't look like it fits the boat, so the C5 is more visually appealing

There is no outhaul! the Cunningham line appears to run up the mast and work from the top, and the Gnav is visible in the below picture.
The overall rigging reminds me of a 29er (Especially the boom), which is to be expected as it is Julian Bethwaite designed.
Somewhat confusingly, Hurley mentioned that the ultimate aim is to have four rigs, but only talked about the three that we know about. Perhaps keeping one of the old rigs?
Finally, the names are not set in stone, but the rigs should come out this year.
C5.JPG
 

LaLi

Active Member
#2
Thank you Gryphon for this firsthand information!

The C5 was designed to contend for the lightweight women's category at the Olympics (Which does not exist), and was implied that it is intended for these new rigs (C6 and C8) to replace the Standard and Radial at the Olympics.
...
the ultimate aim is to have four rigs, but only talked about the three that we know about.
It's what I already thought a couple months back: if there's already a 5 and an 8, it shouldn't be too hard to design a 6 and a 7... It's going to be a very interesting Olympic "sea trials" in the near future.

There is no outhaul! the Cunningham line appears to run up the mast and work from the top, and the Gnav is visible in the below picture.
Well, there obviously is an outhaul in the picture, so you mean it's not remotely controllable? The deck cleats would then be for the cunningham and the vang (or "gnav"), right?
As in the video that was published earlier, there is a crease some 10 cm above the clew, which is most likely where the cunningham is attached to the sail, inside the pocket?

Even if you don't test it, could you take and post some more pictures...? Please :D

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Thread starter #3
Thank you Gryphon for this firsthand information!

It's what I already thought a couple months back: if there's already a 5 and an 8, it shouldn't be too hard to design a 6 and a 7... It's going to be a very interesting Olympic "sea trials" in the near future.

Well, there obviously is an outhaul in the picture, so you mean it's not remotely controllable? The deck cleats would then be for the cunningham and the vang (or "gnav"), right?
_
On a thread on another website, it suggests that there was going to be a C7, but it was delayed. Maybe that will be the fourth rig?

And Yes, the outhaul is not controllable, like on a 29er, and the port deck cleat in the picture is for the gnav.
Will post more pictures when I get them.
 

thieuster

Active Member
#4
Pricing is bizarre! 3600 AUD = 2220 euros / US $2500.

Let me guess: only one supplier for all parts, off course. No room for other, cheaper suppliers.

Over here, a new Laser with the new set-up will hit the 9000 euros easily. For consideration: the step towards a Waszp Foiling dinghy becomes very small. Given the extreme growing popularity of the Waszp here in Holland, a lot of young sailors will not even look at the old-fashioned (...) Laser and step onto a mini-America Cup racer!

In the UK, the Aero will become a sensible alternative; more and more UK sailors (even top Laser sailors - just look at the result lists of Laser venues and Aero venues) are making a detour to the Aero. When you have to decide between an old design with a new sail, or a completely & balanced new design, things will be in favour of the modern Aero dinghy.

Upgrading the Laser is a good idea. Adding 25%+ to the price isn't...


Menno
 
Thread starter #5
Pricing is bizarre! 3600 AUD = 2220 euros / US $2500.

Let me guess: only one supplier for all parts, off course. No room for other, cheaper suppliers.

Over here, a new Laser with the new set-up will hit the 9000 euros easily. For consideration: the step towards a Waszp Foiling dinghy becomes very small. Given the extreme growing popularity of the Waszp here in Holland, a lot of young sailors will not even look at the old-fashioned (...) Laser and step onto a mini-America Cup racer!

In the UK, the Aero will become a sensible alternative; more and more UK sailors (even top Laser sailors - just look at the result lists of Laser venues and Aero venues) are making a detour to the Aero. When you have to decide between an old design with a new sail, or a completely & balanced new design, things will be in favour of the modern Aero dinghy.

Upgrading the Laser is a good idea. Adding 25%+ to the price isn't...


Menno
A new hull in Australia is only about $6,000, and so for us it will actually be cheaper ($9600 compared to newly priced $11,235 for a pre order before the worlds next January in Melbourne). For me, whose 1999 worlds boat cost $2,000 with the two rigs, I would happily buy another rig, especially because it was Bethwaite designed. Lasers retain their value well, and thats what people like in an old boat. Waszps in Australia are about $15,000, and so for many people a rig upgrade is extremely viable.
 

torrid

Just sailing
#6
Are these rigs intended solely to maintain Olympic status? Or do they want to completely supplant the existing rigs within the class?
 
Thread starter #7
Are these rigs intended solely to maintain Olympic status? Or do they want to completely supplant the existing rigs within the class?
From what it sounded like when Hurling addressed us competitors at the briefing the aim is for the current rigs to exist side by side with the C-Series rigs for a few years, and for the new rigs to eventually replace the current rigs for the Olympics and other high level events with some support still available for the old rigs.

But, to do that, they have to go through the political process that is World Sailing
 

LaLi

Active Member
#8
Those prices look actually quite reasonable, especially considering that you're getting all-composite spars and a fully-battened laminate sail +new vang and cunningham equipment. The C5 would actually be cheaper than a 4.7 rig.

the aim is for the current rigs to exist side by side with the C-Series rigs for a few years, and for the new rigs to eventually replace the current rigs for the Olympics and other high level events with some support still available for the old rigs.

But, to do that, they have to go through the political process that is World Sailing
I don't think WS is going to set any obstacles to whatever the class wants to do. Most member nations will most likely prefer upgrading just the Olympic rig rather than the whole boat.
The real problem is that this will further fragment the class, which is especially problematic in smaller fleets. Which rig are you going to use in five years? And what about your friends in a national masters fleet, for example?

_
 

torrid

Just sailing
#10
Hmm. Maybe we need another thread, but I'll throw in my two cents.

Even if these prices are reasonable for a composite spars and laminate sails, they are at the level that would have me thinking about just buying a whole new boat. And if the plan is to eventually upgrade the class at the club level, the time to do this was five years ago before these new classes started appearing.

edit - I now realize the fallacy of something like this happening five years ago given all the recent class drama (couldn't even get the Mk II sail), but the new classes have still stolen much thunder.
 

thieuster

Active Member
#11
Indeed, a 4.7 rig with carbon top part mast is more expensive than the C5. When you still use an alloy top, things are the other way around

But after getting a 4.7 rig, the whole Laser concept was relatively cheap because one only had to obtain a new lower part + sail. I can't see (read) that this system works with the new sails as well. Perhaps it can. That would make things a little more 'comfortable' for the wallet.
 
Thread starter #12
Indeed, a 4.7 rig with carbon top part mast is more expensive than the C5. When you still use an alloy top, things are the other way around

But after getting a 4.7 rig, the whole Laser concept was relatively cheap because one only had to obtain a new lower part + sail. I can't see (read) that this system works with the new sails as well. Perhaps it can. That would make things a little more 'comfortable' for the wallet.
Will find out today for you. Hurling did mention that the sails can be bought separately from the package, which suggests that it *might* be only the sail that needs to be swapped out.
 

LaLi

Active Member
#13
the whole Laser concept was relatively cheap because one only had to obtain a new lower part + sail. I can't see (read) that this system works with the new sails as well. Perhaps it can.
I wouldn't worry about that because if...
the rig is designed to be able to be put in oversized luggage at the airport
...then it means that the mast splits to at least two, or even more likely three pieces. I imagine that the lowest, most expensive part is identical for the different sizes, and you switch the upper and/or middle pieces. (The current system is of course the opposite, but that's because of material/technology and history.)

But we'll find out soon.

_
 

beldar boathead

Well-Known Member
#14
A few thoughts, questions, etc......I wonder if the Laser loses Olympic status if these new rigs will still be launched, and how much interest will there be in them? If/when they are introduced, there certainly will be issues with fragmentation of the less-serious racers who probably won't want to pay to upgrade. We already have 3 fleets at many regattas - full, radial and 4.7 - will we now need 5 or 6 fleets???

Lastly, a big reason to not bother upgrading and instead just switching to an Aero is, in most of the world at least, our "beloved" manufacturer, LP. There is no reason to think they will become better and more helpful than they have been, and if we lose Olympic status their interest in adhering to the construction manual would likely wane. So why not just buy an Aero and not have to worry about LP?
 

LaLi

Active Member
#16
I wonder if the Laser loses Olympic status if these new rigs will still be launched
Good question. Were that to happen, I doubt that the class membership would embrace any radical equipment changes no matter how the leaders pushed for any. We'd get the composite lower for the Radial (which is being tested), but that would probably be the end of major technical development for a long time to come.

Is LP even involved in this effort? On the surface, it appears to be a collaboration between the ILCA and PSA.,
I don't think LP has done really any pioneering work in this sense, ever - it's always the Australians, with or without help from the Japanese/Takao Otani.

why not just buy an Aero and not have to worry about LP?
LP and the whole Laser business model have to change if the class is going to stay Olympic. And despite the impression one gets from RS Sailing and the sailing press, this is not just a "Laser vs. Aero" match.

_
 

beldar boathead

Well-Known Member
#17
I don't think LP has done really any pioneering work in this sense, ever - it's always the Australians, with or without help from the Japanese/Takao Otani.

LP and the whole Laser business model have to change if the class is going to stay Olympic. And despite the impression one gets from RS Sailing and the sailing press, this is not just a "Laser vs. Aero" match.
_
Agree that I doubt LP has had anything to do with this. I wonder if the new C series stuff would fall under the Laser global agreements, meaning that LP would have the exclusive rights in their territories, or not? I know WS does not want "monopoly classes" but I am not sure how that problem gets solved unless they bring back the Finn and Europe :)

On top of all this, LP seems to working with Doyle on a new, bigger, monofilm sail - that could add to the confusion.

I think RS has done a good job positioning themselves as the leading dog in the fight. BB
 

LaLi

Active Member
#18
I wonder if the new C series stuff would fall under the Laser global agreements, meaning that LP would have the exclusive rights in their territories, or not?
Laser equipment is either "builder supplied" or "optional". A whole rig would definitely fall under the former category, so the way things are now, it would have to be sold through LP in most parts of the world. The way things are a year from now, no one knows.

I know WS does not want "monopoly classes"
I believe WS is ok with any level of monopoly unless it potentially breaks international competition laws. They just want to stay out of legal trouble, and not to risk their relations with the IOC.

LP seems to working with Doyle on a new, bigger, monofilm sail - that could add to the confusion.
What? Could you give a source?

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beldar boathead

Well-Known Member
#19
Regarding the Doyle sail - can you access the Facebook post I’ve attached? There are several comments on the post from Judith Krimski that sound legit. I think there is a mention of it in the new issue of Laser Sailor that implies that it’s a bigger rig LP wants to offer - sort of a Rooster sized sail. 7C94F3BE-A045-43E9-830F-38542CEEF536.png
 
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