The C5: What we know so far

Rob B

Well-Known Member
#41
I don’t think introducing a new rig threatens the one design ethos. The Radial and 4.7 were both newly introduced rigs once upon a time as well. This is just a new choice. When those rigs were brought out there was concern they would fragment the class, but imho they’ve only made it stronger.

I think the Radial weight range of 58-72 is very optimistic for the Radial as well. Even 65kg is a lightweight, and will only work if you’re close to six foot. Conventional wisdom here in Oz is that 65kg is the transition point to a Radial. A lot of women never get there.

I know plenty of girls and women around 55-60kg though who are excellent sailors and too small for a Radial. They’re crying out for a rig that works for them.
Good post Redstar. This makes perfect sense. I was thinking the intent was to design complete new rigs for both radial and standard rigs. That said, I see this as more of a high end ladies Olympic OD single handed version of the Radial. It could well proliferate throughout the class, but I have a hard time seeing that happen at the price point, but who knows? Anyone know if this is the rig the class will sail for the trials in May?
 

beldar boathead

Well-Known Member
#42
The reason is that it's hard to bring new blood into a class when you tell a new sailor that they need to spend another $500 to updated the vang and rigging,
I am not sure you are right about that. I have talked to people who would not have bought a Laser were it not for the new vang. It's still a hard boat to sail, and it was even harder with the old 4:1 and its terrible cleating system.
 

torrid

Just sailing
#43
How many years ago were the rigging upgrades implemented? Wasn't that about 2001?

Any competitive second-hand boat on the market will already have the upgraded equipment. Anybody looking at an older boat without the upgrades is a novice sailor still learning the basics, so the upgrades are not as much an issue for them.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
#44
I don’t think introducing a new rig threatens the one design ethos. The Radial and 4.7 were both newly introduced rigs once upon a time as well. This is just a new choice. When those rigs were brought out there was concern they would fragment the class, but imho they’ve only made it stronger.
Neither the Radial or the 4.7 ever threatened to reduce the number of sailors in the then-existing (Standard) fleets, as they targeted a different weight group. The current rigs aren't one another's choices in the same way that they would be against their respective-sized "C" rigs .

I think the Radial weight range of 58-72 is very optimistic for the Radial as well. Even 65kg is a lightweight, and will only work if you’re close to six foot.
Medal racers in Rio (cm/kg):

1. Bouwmeester 176/66
2. Murphy 185/72
3. Rindom 170/68
4. Van Acker 171/66
5. Tenkanen 167/62
6. Olsson 172/67
7. Scheidt 172/63
8. Young 181/67
9. Stoddart 172/70
10. Railey 173/68

Average: 174/67

(Source: olympicchannel.com)

Anyone know if this is the rig the class will sail for the trials in May?
That's the big question now - will ILCA come to the trials with the "traditional" or "C" rigs? But even in the latter case, it's more likely that they come with the bigger versions of the C5.

By the way, how do you know the trials are in May? The invitation to tender for venue selection talks about February - April. (If you have any new information, could you post it in the "Olympic status" thread?)

How many years ago were the rigging upgrades implemented? Wasn't that about 2001?
Yes. 1 October 2001.


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thieuster

Active Member
#45
Interesting list with length/weight. I've spoken a few on that list, but 'what's your weight?' isn't really something that came up during the conversation :D

I'm under the impression that a lot of the current male U19 sailors are heavier than those around who are now 20 - 25 y/o - but those youngsters lack height for the transition to the Standard. Given the athletic posture of most young men, I would say that spending hours and hours in the gym has a downside, weight-wise that is. And those Standard men are really big and long!

Now with the Finn off the Olympic list, it's going to be interesting what will happen with those 'heavies'. Perhaps a more demanding large sail can compensate for the loss of the Finn.
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
#46
Neither the Radial or the 4.7 ever threatened to reduce the number of sailors in the then-existing (Standard) fleets, as they targeted a different weight group. The current rigs aren't one another's choices in the same way that they would be against their respective-sized "C" rigs .

Medal racers in Rio (cm/kg):

1. Bouwmeester 176/66
2. Murphy 185/72
3. Rindom 170/68
4. Van Acker 171/66
5. Tenkanen 167/62
6. Olsson 172/67
7. Scheidt 172/63
8. Young 181/67
9. Stoddart 172/70
10. Railey 173/68

Average: 174/67

(Source: olympicchannel.com)

That's the big question now - will ILCA come to the trials with the "traditional" or "C" rigs? But even in the latter case, it's more likely that they come with the bigger versions of the C5.

By the way, how do you know the trials are in May? The invitation to tender for venue selection talks about February - April. (If you have any new information, could you post it in the "Olympic status" thread?)

Yes. 1 October 2001.


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I thought I read it online somewhere about the trials being in May. Maybe in one of the WSO letters? I could be wrong...
 
#47
I am not sure you are right about that. I have talked to people who would not have bought a Laser were it not for the new vang. It's still a hard boat to sail, and it was even harder with the old 4:1 and its terrible cleating system.
I've sailed both setups and I don't find the old setup too bad. I do suspect the broken or bent masts from releasing the vang too late could be avoided for newer people. Of course I'm referring to club and regional racing, not the Olympics. Only in 23 knots or higher is the old setup harder to sail. As for tall the talk about the ladies sailing radial, I can only say that the one serious female Laser racer that I race with has been talking about an Aero 5.
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
#48
This is an interesting thread, for sure. But there's a need to recognize that sailors who are aiming for the top are quite different from the great majority of Laser sailors.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
#49
Neither the Radial or the 4.7 ever threatened to reduce the number of sailors in the then-existing (Standard) fleets, as they targeted a different weight group.
As someone that lived through that era,, I disagree. The smaller guys and the women one week would be sailing standard rig and the next be sailing a radial as they switched to the new rig. At one regatta there would be 10 radials and 90 standard rigs and in a few months time there would be 25 radials and 75 standard rigs. The people sailing the radials early on we're not new to the class but seasoned laser sailors. It was only after a year or two did people come directly into the class to sail the radial. Similarly the adults sailing the 4.7 even now, have usually come from the radial, whilst the kids have gone directly into the 4.7.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
#50
The people sailing the radials early on we're not new to the class but seasoned laser sailors. It was only after a year or two did people come directly into the class to sail the radial.
It's obviously been a different story in different countries. Over here there was no Radial class before 2003, and the only Standard sailors to move to it were a small handful of Great Grand Masters. Everyone under 75 kg sailed Europes until then (and many still do).
But even in other scenarios, what I said earlier applies: the current rigs aren't one another's choices in the same way that they would be against their respective-sized "C" rigs.

there's a need to recognize that sailors who are aiming for the top are quite different from the great majority of Laser sailors.
Of course, but the strength of the Laser class has been to keep all those sailors of different levels in the same big tent so to speak. I am afraid that a complete redesign of the boat from the deck up will lead to the end of that.

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LaLi

Well-Known Member
#53
That's some statement indeed! That should be a start for a new thread (or several) in the politics section.

"... an onslaught of litigation and legal challenges from the International Laser Class Association in coordination with Bruce Kirby and his Australian partners at the Performance Sailcraft Pty group."

ILCA, Kirby and PSA suing LP? This has been a well-kept secret!

"... an unsigned Olympics 2020 contract and an expiring license to operate for ILCA ending August 2019."

Doesn't PSJ build the boats for 2020? Who haven't signed and why? Might we see the end of LP-built Lasers in seven months? Is this a game of who blinks first between LP and ILCA?

"... we will introduce the ARC in May 2019, a contemporary racing rig and sail for Laser and Laser Radial that broadens the sailor weight range and increases overall performance."

Is this the "Doyle rig" then? Is there really an apparently unfriendly competition between LP and PSA/ILCA to get "contemporary" rigs on the market?

Many, many more questions than answers... :confused:

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Rob B

Well-Known Member
#54
Tracy Usher recently posted praising the C-rig. With this announcement we know that's going to happen. Now the big question is, "what will it do to the class?"

Is there a D-Day for the MKII and current Radial rigs to be discontinued? So much for the composite top section? Will the C-rig become another class altogether?

Are the current rigged 200,000+ Lasers in garages and yards around the world now obsolete and boat anchors with no re-sale value?

I can't think of better press for Aero and the Melges 14.
 
Thread starter #56
"... we will introduce the ARC in May 2019, a contemporary racing rig and sail for Laser and Laser Radial that broadens the sailor weight range and increases overall performance."

Is this the "Doyle rig" then? Is there really an apparently unfriendly competition between LP and PSA/ILCA to get "contemporary" rigs on the market?

Many, many more questions than answers... :confused:

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There is no benefit for the class to be arguing against each other. My guess is that ARC *might* be the series name for the C-Series. I hadn't heard any mention of it before @Horizon posted the LP comment
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
#57
There is no benefit for the class to be arguing against each other. My guess is that ARC *might* be the series name for the C-Series. I hadn't heard any mention of it before @Horizon posted the LP comment
I communicated with the NA class office earlier today. The C-Rig is the ILCA rig which is being planned for "show and tell" during 2019 at area clubs with some decisions for next steps happening late 2019/early 2020. No one in the ILCA office has any idea what the "ARC" rig is that LP is referring to.
 
Thread starter #58
I communicated with the NA class office earlier today. The C-Rig is the ILCA rig which is being planned for "show and tell" during 2019 at area clubs with some decisions for next steps happening late 2019/early 2020. No one in the ILCA office has any idea what the "ARC" rig is that LP is referring to.
So the ARC is probably like the Rooster 8.1 - a mousetrap rig that is not class legal.
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
#59
So the ARC is probably like the Rooster 8.1 - a mousetrap rig that is not class legal.
Think it's deeper than that: "we will introduce the ARC in May 2019, a contemporary racing rig and sail for Laser and Laser Radial that broadens the sailor weight range and increases overall performance." Sounds like a "C-Rig" device to me.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
#60
It's obviously been a different story in different countries. Over here there was no Radial class before 2003, and the only Standard sailors to move to it were a small handful of Great Grand Masters. Everyone under 75 kg sailed Europes until then (and many still do).
But even in other scenarios, what I said earlier applies: the current rigs aren't one another's choices in the same way that they would be against their respective-sized "C" rigs.
Very different to us. We've had a growing radial fleet from its inception. Having Jacqui Ellis win the first Women's Radial Worlds in 1988 helped as most of the other females rapidly switched to the new rig, as did the smaller guys. Additionally switching to the radial for the male youths pushed more into them. The third factor was the standard rig becoming an Olympic Class, our club sailors were no longer competitive at regattas with all the overseas people flying in for our summer regattas particularly in the lead up to the Sydney Olympics . By the early 2000's the radial fleet was bigger than our standard fleet.
 
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