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LP no longer an approved builder-- why?

thieuster

Active Member
2017 LPE boat here; #212xxx. 'Driven in anger' so to speak: >120 days/year in -sometimes- atrocious weather conditions, hauled across Europe (20k kms) on the stackable A-frame trailer. No cracks, no flex. The only thing that has failed is the lower mast. Besides, when sailing a Laser after the Dutch design Splash, you're in for a treat. Those Splashes are só prone to failure, production quality differences etc. Luckily, we had a 'good one'.

I have seen AUS Lasers as well; some people have managed to get one or two shipped to Europe. No-one has been able to show me (not: tell me - I've heard the stories as well) the difference in quality. The main problem is that LPE suppliers here in Europe are reluctant to work on AUS boat when there's damage to the hull etc. Must say I do love the colour of the AUS boats more than the Ice Blue hull.

Back on topic: it is it's odd that EurILCA and ILCA are not on the same page in this one.

Menno
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
2017 LPE boat here; #212xxx. 'Driven in anger' so to speak: >120 days/year in -sometimes- atrocious weather conditions, hauled across Europe (20k kms) on the stackable A-frame trailer. No cracks, no flex. The only thing that has failed is the lower mast. Besides, when sailing a Laser after the Dutch design Splash, you're in for a treat. Those Splashes are só prone to failure, production quality differences etc. Luckily, we had a 'good one'.

I have seen AUS Lasers as well; some people have managed to get one or two shipped to Europe. No-one has been able to show me (not: tell me - I've heard the stories as well) the difference in quality. The main problem is that LPE suppliers here in Europe are reluctant to work on AUS boat when there's damage to the hull etc. Must say I do love the colour of the AUS boats more than the Ice Blue hull.

Back on topic: it is it's odd that EurILCA and ILCA are not on the same page in this one.

Menno
I think EurlLCA is sort of playing the middle.
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
I'm partial to the Vanguard hulls, (on my 3rd one now) as I feel they have a nice quality build. Everyone "says" the Aussie boats are the ones to have. I have seen LPE boats with stress cracks along the center board trunk and I've heard direct from dealers how getting "complete boats" from LPE in the US is near impossible. A friend of mine bought one and it was shipped with the LPE practice sail! The best way to get a new LPE hull in the US is buy one from a builder supplied charter event.
 
2017 LPE boat here; #212xxx. 'Driven in anger' so to speak: >120 days/year in -sometimes- atrocious weather conditions, hauled across Europe (20k kms) on the stackable A-frame trailer. No cracks, no flex. The only thing that has failed is the lower mast. Besides, when sailing a Laser after the Dutch design Splash, you're in for a treat. Those Splashes are só prone to failure, production quality differences etc. Luckily, we had a 'good one'.

I have seen AUS Lasers as well; some people have managed to get one or two shipped to Europe. No-one has been able to show me (not: tell me - I've heard the stories as well) the difference in quality. The main problem is that LPE suppliers here in Europe are reluctant to work on AUS boat when there's damage to the hull etc. Must say I do love the colour of the AUS boats more than the Ice Blue hull.

Back on topic: it is it's odd that EurILCA and ILCA are not on the same page in this one.

Menno
A lot of the load on the boats depends on the size and strength of the sailor. A smaller radial sailor abuses the hull a massive amount less than a big strong full rig sailor. Many of the top US full rig sailors buy a new LP boat each year because how quickly they wear them out. A large amount of the wear on the boat depends on how much you tow your boat, especially in waves. At my club it is a 30 plus min tow to the sailing area. About half of that tow is in the open ocean. A good trailer will do no damage to the hull. You also just might have gotten a stiff hull. The person who organizes shipments of PSA boats in my area says that the AUS lasers are just better quality in production. But hey that makes sense as they make far less boats per year.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
it's odd that EurILCA and ILCA are not on the same page in this one.
I think EurlLCA is sort of playing the middle.
It was a bad move from Jean-Luc and Heini to publish what they did. They're effectively letting LP use their position against the ILCA leadership now, no matter how well-meaning (or naive) their intentions are. This may very well be one of those things where there is no "middle" really.

_
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
I wish we had some reliable data to compare Lasers from LP to Lasers from Down Under, or Japan.
I can see that towing a boat in the open ocean may be deleterious to its long(er) term health. Especially because towing should only be done at low speed. But not many 'weekend' Laser sailors face that scenario.
 

ang

Member
I also feel the new lp boats quality is pretty bad. I had a 2008 vanguard. My boat next to a newer lp, the bottoms of the rails are half as thick, and not a consistent thickness the length of the hull. On my 2008 the thickness is fairly consistany. There is a psa boat in my area. It seems to be a better build boat then the lp ones.

Edit: I only did competitive racing with that boat for 4 years. that including plenty of hugh speed towing. my boat did develop spider cracks around the daggerboat truck. but it took alot longer and isnt as bad as my team mates with lp
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
Whilst PSA makes fewer boats, they also have significantly fewer moulds. I think the real difference is in the management and production staff, they are qualified shipwrights and most of them actually sail. They actually understand the product they are building and if anything find themselves restricted by the construction manual in building better boats.

They attitude in the factor from my couple of visits on the factory floor was we want to make the best most consistent boats possible within the constraints of the construction manual. It seems LP will use anyone wanting a job laying up fibreglass, they couldn't care whether it's a swimming pool, garden pond, sailing boat or a fridge, it's just a job. This sort of matches my experience of assisting running a manufacturing factory in the UK. Poorly trained and qualified staff with little enthusiasms for what they are doing.
 

Laser41420

New Member
I sold my 40+ year old laser last year and when I was offered a much newer hull, the new hull had some deck delamination and several small areas of missing gelcoat due to air bubbles from the construction process. It is an LP boat and it looks to me like the quality is far inferior, basically knocking them out on a production line with very poor quality control.
 

bclark3862

New Member
Given the scale on which these boats are produced, I think it ultimately boils down to who is on the production floor when they're being built. In the world of boatbuilding, a Laser can be built well by a trained ape relative to other boats. It mostly depends on who the boat you end up buying was built by, regardless of the company.
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
I agree with the above. I remember a post not too long ago where someone commented how carefully the hulls were being built in the UK facility.
And following up on Laser41420's post, I inspected my (third-hand) hull (210xxx series; built by LP); it looks quite smooth. But I still don't win any races!
:(
 

gouvernail

Super Opinionated and Always Correct
What a stinking lousy mess!!! Everyone wants the exact same thing.... lots of Lasers sold all over the planet.
This should not be so damned difficult!!!
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
What a stinking lousy mess!!! Everyone wants the exact same thing.... lots of Lasers sold all over the planet.
This should not be so damned difficult!!!
I don't think it will be. Any boats having the ISAF Sticker in the cockpit qualifies as a "class boat". We just need a new name for the class. LP and Nasty Rasty can suck it!
 

thieuster

Active Member
After reading this here and talking about the situation with people from the Laser sailing community from Germany and The Netherlands (the Germans attended a two-day race-training with Dutch crews in Medemblik) I can safely say that there's a difference in perception between what I hear on the slipway and what I read here. I am under the opinion that it has to do with the long-time struggle with the supplier from a non-European p.o.v.
 

thieuster

Active Member
Maybe we need to have an independent North American builder like many years ago?
Well, given the size of Northern America, you guys should have one. Numbers-wise, perhaps things are different. 61% of all Lasers is in Europe. Numbers-wise, CAN and USA house more or less the same amount of boats as you can find in Germany and as you can find in Italy. (Given the number of Lasers in Germany and the relatively small amount of training water, it's always busy here in Holland with German crews training here)
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
I am under the opinion that it has to do with the long-time struggle with the supplier from a non-European p.o.v.
There have been "struggles" here, too, but maybe it hasn't been that visible at the ground level.

I remember our former national dealer complain how things changed around the time LP was formed. He said that there were suddenly new people in charge, who wouldn't listen to dealers' wishes, but rather wanted them to push new products, such as the then-new Laser Vago. So there was one Vago standing in front of the shop for many years... I don't know if anybody ever bought it. At the same time spare parts became harder to get, and at one point the dealer had to import "extra" complete boats (which LP preferred to sell) just to get foils, spars, etc. for which there was actual demand.

By 2015 the guy had had enough, and let the dealership lapse. Our current dealer operates online only, so one might just as well order the stuff from anywhere. I kind of hope for the good old times to come back with a new builder...

_
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
There have been "struggles" here, too, but maybe it hasn't been that visible at the ground level.

I remember our former national dealer complain how things changed around the time LP was formed. He said that there were suddenly new people in charge, who wouldn't listen to dealers' wishes, but rather wanted them to push new products, such as the then-new Laser Vago. So there was one Vago standing in front of the shop for many years... I don't know if anybody ever bought it. At the same time spare parts became harder to get, and at one point the dealer had to import "extra" complete boats (which LP preferred to sell) just to get foils, spars, etc. for which there was actual demand.

By 2015 the guy had had enough, and let the dealership lapse. Our current dealer operates online only, so one might just as well order the stuff from anywhere. I kind of hope for the good old times to come back with a new builder...

_
Yeah. Our long time local dealer couldn't take it anymore and got out. I saw an LP box trailer in a contractors garage recently. He'd made a "man cave" out of it. Guess he picked it up at a pawn shop or something....
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
Mmmm perhaps is the discussion between Aussie and LPE boats not so far off topic as we initially thought...

LPE claims that Australian boats don't comply with the rules and that ILCA was informed quite some time ago.

LPE on 'too fast Aussie boats'
Well. for LP's sake it better be true or LP just hand delivered a nice slander suit to ILCA and PSA with a nice bow wrapped around it!.
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
Mmmm perhaps is the discussion between Aussie and LPE boats not so far off topic as we initially thought...

LPE claims that Australian boats don't comply with the rules and that ILCA was informed quite some time ago.

LPE on 'too fast Aussie boats'
It's interesting, to me at least, that these statements from LP give us insight into the infamous Laser Construction Manual.
As an aside, the build issues that LP revealed in its post have nothing to do with the current disagreement between LP and ILCA (and make LP look stupid).
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Shows desperation from LP's part to clutch at any straw to make them look like the good guys in the story.

Also interesting that LP now wants the class office to be in Europe. Some kind of control thing for them I suppose, because what should that matter in reality?

_
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
Mmmm perhaps is the discussion between Aussie and LPE boats not so far off topic as we initially thought...

LPE claims that Australian boats don't comply with the rules and that ILCA was informed quite some time ago.

LPE on 'too fast Aussie boats'
The trouble with this argument is that the ICLA inspects the factories specifically to check that the boats are being built in a manner that complies with the Construction Manual and the boats do measure in within the specs. The only group not complying is LP
 

Andy B

Member
The statement below has been on the home page of laser.org.uk for several days.

Training boats

Laser Performance has introduced the Laser 'Club Edition', described as a training boat which does not bear the World Sailing Building Plaque or a Sail Button. This is fine as a training boat but we feel it is important to clarify that these boats are not Class legal based on the Fundamental Rule within the Laser Class Rules. These boats will be ineligible to compete in any UKLA sanctioned events, broadly speaking but not exclusively, those advertised on the UKLA website. Whilst the UKLA would like all Laser racing to be conducted strictly in accordance with the Class Rules, it does not consider it should dictate to sailing clubs throughout the UK over their adoption, though they would be subject to protest by competing sailors in the same way that any non-compliant gear currently is.

Please note, the UKLA is not party to the discussions between ILCA and LPE, does not possess any privileged information and considers itself a neutral party. This advisory statement is solely to ensure sailors wishing to compete in UKLA events understand the Laser 'Club Edition' is marketed as a training boat and not as a racing boat.
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
The statement below has been on the home page of laser.org.uk for several days.

Training boats

Laser Performance has introduced the Laser 'Club Edition', described as a training boat which does not bear the World Sailing Building Plaque or a Sail Button. This is fine as a training boat but we feel it is important to clarify that these boats are not Class legal based on the Fundamental Rule within the Laser Class Rules. These boats will be ineligible to compete in any UKLA sanctioned events, broadly speaking but not exclusively, those advertised on the UKLA website. Whilst the UKLA would like all Laser racing to be conducted strictly in accordance with the Class Rules, it does not consider it should dictate to sailing clubs throughout the UK over their adoption, though they would be subject to protest by competing sailors in the same way that any non-compliant gear currently is.

Please note, the UKLA is not party to the discussions between ILCA and LPE, does not possess any privileged information and considers itself a neutral party. This advisory statement is solely to ensure sailors wishing to compete in UKLA events understand the Laser 'Club Edition' is marketed as a training boat and not as a racing boat.
This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Who the hell is gonna buy a "training laser"?
 

thieuster

Active Member
No one will buy that, but what can you do when you have boats lined up waiting for a WS plaque that will never be issued? In the past, LPE told WS that they were planning to build xxx number of boats and WS would send those plaques in advance. About 400 - 500 numbers in advance. Last Summer LPE talked about 216xxx. A number only recently sold.

Menno
 

torrid

Just sailing
Given the general acceptance of aftermarket parts, I bet a large number of sailors would be willing to buy a "club Laser" if it came at a significant discount.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
Given the general acceptance of aftermarket parts, I bet a large number of sailors would be willing to buy a "club Laser" if it came at a significant discount.
Unfortunately so. It also will attract those that hope that they will be permitted at all regattas eventually.
 

thieuster

Active Member
Dutch dealer SailCenter has added 'official class legal boat' to the selling point list and '2 - 3 day delivery time' and 'in stock'.

Menno
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Dutch dealer SailCenter has added 'official class legal boat' to the selling point list
Good. Hopefully other dealers follow suit and stay away from the "training" hulls.

Of course it remains to be seen how the dealer network changes in the near future. I would expect most to prefer to keep selling legal Laser/ILCA equipment regardless of the builder(s).

_
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
None of the "training equipment" should ever have been something for the dealers to avoid, there should never have been a market for it. It was always up to the clubs to say, "If you want to compete in the Laser Division, you must be sailing a legal boat and as members of the laser class in those clubs demanding the clubs to enforce it. If you want to sail with training equipment, go find a club with an open division."

We've pretty much brought on this whole LP saga on ourselves by not demanding our clubs support official boats and equipment only, by not demanding the ILCA, via our district representatives demand value for money from the builders and for us in turn to support our dealers and builders by purchasing from them, with the counter flow of the builders and dealers supporting the class events and even the clubs.
 
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