GarbageThe Sydney guys all use the carbons for training and club races.
Garbage
$$$$ as well. It isn't cheap buying an expensive sail that lasts no time at all. even though new one might be comparable retail price, at least it will (hopefully) last a bit longer....
LaLi may be able to wait but some of us are at the time of life when every season counts.
LaLi may be able to wait but some of us are at the time of life when every season counts.
That's how I understood the situation to be earlier, and it still sounds plausible. Probably no one is telling the whole truth, or maybe isn't even allowed to.I was told by an ILCA representative yesterday that it is still PSA who will not sign the release on the new sail and top section.
Their take on it is that PSA is not going to assist someone they are taking to court, by releasing a new product that LPE could sell.
I admit that I am at a stage (and mindset) in my life when a year or two one way or another doesn't feel like a big deal. So if there's one word of advice I can give from this point of view, it's "relax".... some of us are at the time of life when every season counts.
Which is precisely why what you wrote was garbage.I admit that I quickly wrote that ALL of them use the spars. I realize that is obviously incorrect. Fast typing will often get one in trouble.
Of course, clubs, or perhaps more accurately, Laser fleets can disregard the use of illegal (or not yet approved) equipment. My fleet does and I know of several others along the East Coast of the USA. I don't have a problem with that and my opinion is shared by many others. But there is no doubt that we are not sailing legal Lasers as we strive to be first across the finish line in club/local races.Why do you say that Wavedancer? Surely clubs and fleets can choose to allow the new sail in local racing… just as they have been allowing Intensity and APS and Rooster sails etc. etc. for the last few years. Wouldn't it actually be a good thing to use the sail in local racing, get experience with it, give feedback to the sailmakers on any issues, before the bureaucrats at ISAF get round to making it official?
Any competitor that uses non-legal kit is subject to protest by any other competitor. There is no provision in the ISAF Rules for a club to over-ride the Class Rules, unless it gets permission from the Class Association. Good luck with that.Of course, clubs, or perhaps more accurately, Laser fleets can disregard the use of illegal (or not yet approved) equipment.
Yes, we know that.Any competitor that uses non-legal kit is subject to protest by any other competitor. There is no provision in the ISAF Rules for a club to over-ride the Class Rules, unless it gets permission from the Class Association. Good luck with that.
However, at the Club Level and many small multi class regattas those are in fact not Laser sanctioned events. There fore they can make rule changes as a Club or RO. Often at the Club level they do away with the 2 turns rule and make all penalties one turn.
At the end of the day common sense usually prevails in regards to legal or semi-legal boats. Everyone knows that so far there is absolutely no competitive advantage to using non class legal parts on a Laser. If there is a true advantage, I would love to hear it..
The trouble is that in my experience (4 different clubs) their priority is to get as many boats at the start line as they can. so they tolerate non-legal class equipment. Most still call it a Laser Class (though one club has switched to the "Kirby Torch"). One of the more competitive clubs voted to outlaw non-legal gear (with a year or two "forgiveness" for existing non-legal stuff), but that was changed back before the rule came into effect. There is s much non-legal stuff (mainly sails) around now, non-legal is more common than legal.LaLi at long last someone has called a spade a spade, excellent.
LaLi is quite correct, any level of racing in Lasers, the boats must be class legal and clubs can't amend this. If a club wants to have an open fleet where Lasers race against similar craft they can, but for an instant think that those other craft are lasers just because some components are Laser class legal.
Even with a longer lasting sail (if it ever gets released), it is unlikely to last much longer than 3rd party sails and they will still be significantly cheaper. Had it been released sooner then 3rd party gear would not have become so widespread. But not ... too late (I fear).
Ian
Maybe if the builders stopped charging three times (or more) of market price for sails and all parts the problem would disappear.I guess that after a while with the MkII sail on the market there will be replica sails made in the same manner. So that aspect of the situation will probably remain. /freddy
In the UK if you buy in summer when Laser are shipping large quantities of boats you will pay $600 for a sail. Buy in winter and this year the price was $375. It's supply and demand. Look at the quality of the legal part - I bought a lot of 12 sails manufactured over 6 months, by weight the tolerance was better than 0.5%. You have to pay to get tolerances like this and in turn it gives closer racing. The class legal sail also includes dues. It's easy to undercut someone by copying their design to poor tolerances using an unspecified manufacturer. Our class legal sails are of a good quality, tight tolerances and, according to the publicity, produced by suppliers paying a living wage.
Compare the price of a legal sail with other classes. You will find sails in most other classes are between two and three times the price.
It's the same with spars. I weighed spars at my clubs and found most of the replicas were up to 20% down by weight and if you sailed with them they are so soft you could not point. The class legal parts just point higher and sail away from you.
LaLi at long last someone has called a spade a spade, excellent.
LaLi is quite correct, any level of racing in Lasers, the boats must be class legal and clubs can't amend this. If a club wants to have an open fleet where Lasers race against similar craft they can, but for an instant think that those other craft are lasers just because some components are Laser class legal.
You must sail in less than 10 knots most of your two seasons.Tomorrow when the stores open again, I intend to go and buy a new Standard sail. Folded, if available. Should be good for the next two seasons' racing, minimum.
To tell the truth, my home waters aren't known to be a high-wind venue. And I plan to sail this year only two three-day regattas (the Nationals and the local Eurocup) plus one or at most two two-day regattas. I will be busy with the Lightning class the rest of the time.You must sail in less than 10 knots most of your two seasons.
A laser sail will last about 50 hours of 20 knots and I'm probably being generous.
No issue at all lasting 2 + seasons. Buy a new sail, for the two seasons only use it at regattas. Next two season use it for club races that are important for you if you want, and in the 5 and 6 season use it in the other club races, and trading. After two years, buy another new sail for regattas and begin the process again. You do not need a new sail for club racing. It means that you have possibly 3 sails in use at any one time, one effectively new, one in good condition and one that has seen better days.You must sail in less than 10 knots most of your two seasons.
A laser sail will last about 50 hours of 20 knots and I'm probably being generous.
Intensity sails last about the same.
New radial should last longer unless someone figures out some radical setting that makes it faster but deforms it faster as well. Time will tell.
I would be happy if they kept the same price as the current sail for the radials. Clearly they are already making money at $ 450. Not holding my breath though...
E
AlanD,
That is all great in theory and accurate in sea-lawyering terms but is that really what is best for fleet growth at a grass roots level? I can understand your view at an elite level (Olympics, etc...) but not a grass roots level.
The types of generic parts and sails that are allowed by some clubs for some grass roots events can fairly be viewed as a good thing if you accept that these deviations do not have an effect on the boat performance for that level of sailor. I think its fair to say most people, die-hard OD or not, would agree these deviations do not impact boat performance (at that level) but do reduce costs to a such a significant extent that it benefits fleet growth or retention.
Why does this have to be black or white? Elite vs club level? Are there not ways for all of us to come out ahead if accepting certain realities and having meaningful dialogue about middle ground?
The proliferation of the generic parts and sails at the club level clearly demonstrates that many clubs and fleet captains do see more benefit from these changes than they issue or risk. Now, you can condemn then for this sea-lawyering violation or you can applaud them for making reasonable small incremental efforts, that are obviously widely accepted by their respective fleets, to grow and retain fleet members.
At some point don't we have to accept that fleet members have voted with their feet and pocketboks?
They last even longer if you don't use them at all....No issue at all lasting 2 + seasons. Buy a new sail, for the two seasons only use it at regattas. Next two season use it for club races that are important for you if you want, and in the 5 and 6 season use it in the other club races, and trading. After two years, buy another new sail for regattas and begin the process again. You do not need a new sail for club racing. It means that you have possibly 3 sails in use at any one time, one effectively new, one in good condition and one that has seen better days.
Agreed!One good week end of racing on SF cityfront will make your new sail slower.
E
I believe it is the issues with the current sail (price and longevity) that have created the situation where 3rd party sails have become effective and popular. The slow reaction by the class/builder/ISAF. People have been complaining for years (just look back over this forum). And despite having a new sail, etc. it still is not available. The situation beggars belief and nobody is being told why we are stuck in this situation. The membership needs to be told where the blockage is so we can do something about it and get the new sail available. And it is the Class Association that should be accountable to the membership and should be telling us what is going on. We (the many many club sailors) are the ones who spend the money that enables the builders, class, sailmakers, etc. to stay in business. Without us there would be no Laser Olympic class (because nobody would be building Lasers). We actually have the power. So if it's a builder blockage, tell us and we'll have an e-mail campaign telling the builders to sort it out or lose out business and their income. If it's the ISAF, then we can flood their inboxes telling the how their elite minority costing are costing the grass roots and damaging the class. But we must be told.
Ian