Used Sunfish: Buying Guidance

[RobbyDeanSails]

I'm relatively new to Sunfish sailing but have got the bug and am LOVING it, thinking its time to buy a used boat! After browsing local Craig's list and newspapers ads all Summer, I've come across a 2003 Sunfish that I'm excited about and considering buying, but have a few concerns.

For starters, the boat I'm looking at does not feel "heavy" and at first glance looks like its in "near mint" condition with just a few typical "bump" dings on the sides along the top of the deck (which have been epoxied over). BUT, on closer inspection I'm wondering whether or not the following issues should be "deal killers":

1) MAST STEP: Looks like there is a vertical 1" - 2" surface crack in the mast step. Not an obvious hole or gouge by any account, but definitely a break in the otherwsie completely smooth surface. Should this be repaired or just leave it? If not repaired, is this an area that will likely let water get into the hull overtime or is this no big deal (i.e. something that many 10+ year old boats face from normal wear and tear in the delicate mast step)? If repaired, is it a big expensive job (worth doing) or a simple gel coating or otherepoxy type filling that could clean it up (something that even a novice like myself could do)?

2: DAGGERBOARD SLOT: It looks like there is a faint 1" - 2" surface line near the to of the opening about 1" into the slot. Same issue and questions as with the Mast Step above (i.e. Big issue?, simple repair? or just leave it and not b concerned?).

3. STRESS CRACK. There is what appears to be a "stress crack" and some "spidering" coming off one end of the crack just behind the right side of th cockpit on the top of the deck. As I understand it, "stress cracks" like this are fairly common as boats get older. Is this true or is there something I should be more concerned about here? If its just a cosmetic issue, is there something I can do to get rid of these lines and/or keep them from getting worse? Or, do I just leave them "as is" and not be concerned at all?

MANY THANKS to all of you who share your experience and guidance. So GREATLY appreciated as I begin to take my sailing skills to the next step (hopefully)!

As an aside, I have pictures I can include that shows each of the above noted issues, but since I'm new to this forum I don't know how to attach photos (or if they are even allowed). Any guidance for adding Pix is also appreciated.

 

[minifish2]

You can post the pictures by pressing the 'upload a file' tab that should be appearing at he bottom of this message. If you are reading this site from a pc, try pressing 'reply' to this message then upload the pictures from the pc hard drive using that 'upload' tab, below.

Generally a well cared for 2003 would be a good Sunfish selection, especially at a fair price. That's about what I would recommend for anyone getting into sailing who wanted to be competitive right off and who planned to take care of their boat.

Most regular readers here wouldn't mind something like that for themselves. However, and this is a big however, something like a mast step crack can be serious stuff, and no fun for anyone. The back of the cockpit deck crack, on the other hand, sounds relatively benign, and without seeing it I'll bet it's a curved right angle crack where someone sat too hard on the corner of the cockpit. The daggerboard trunk crack is hard to tell, from the description, and pictures would be helpful. If it leaks there, that is not good either.

The do it yourselfers would likely want to take a go at it at the right price. The mast strep especially but also the trunk can be really tough to repair properly and permanently, though. It can be tougher than it might seem, and a constant headache if there is an actual leak there. I would suggest filling the mast step with water and seeing if there is an obvious seepage, with the water level dropping, however even that can be misleading because some cracks don't really leak unless there is stress there. Things can seem fine sitting there, but still leak under load when sailing.

Anyway, this is speculation so far, and pictures would be helpful.

If by some chance you are in an area where there are active Sunfish sailors, you might ask for a second look.

 

[RobbyDeanSails]

THANKS for your reply, Minifish2. I've now included some pix below. As for the mast step, I did fill it with water as a test when looking at boat, waited a while and was glad to see that the water lever stayed the same without any of it seeping into the hull. The pix of it attached show the shot I took from above looking down the hole and then an extremely zoomed in shot to greatly magnify the crack. In the photo of the daggerboard slot the stress cracks appear just below the blue gel coat as a couple of faint arcs (not as obvious to see as the crack in the mast step). The pix of the stress crack on the deck is clear to see (but doesn't form a 90 degree angle, more like stem with a bouquet of flowers!). Curious to hear your follow-up prognosis on all of these issues after viewing the pix. Thanks again for all of your help.

 

[minifish2]

THANKS for your reply, Minifish2. I've now included some pix below. As for the mast step, I did fill it with water as a test when looking at boat, waited a while and was glad to see that the water lever stayed the same without any of it seeping into the hull. The pix of it attached show the shot I took from above looking down the hole and then an extremely zoomed in shot to greatly magnify the crack. In the photo of the daggerboard slot the stress cracks appear just below the blue gel coat as a couple of faint arcs (not as obvious to see as the crack in the mast step). The pix of the stress crack on the deck is clear to see (but doesn't form a 90 degree angle, more like stem with a bouquet of flowers!). Curious to hear your follow-up prognosis on all of these issues after viewing the pix. Thanks again for all of your help.

That's a particularly attractive Sunfish. If the hull is as nice, I would say go for it. The daggerboard trunk didn't look like a problem, and the cockpit-area crack was mostly superficial. I wouldn't sweat that. The good news with the mast step is that it doesn't look like it's at a high stress spot. I might just fill that crack with a dab of Marinetex, carefully smoothed, and keep an eye on it.

That is so nice that I would hate to put an inspection port in that deck unless really necessary, but if you did decide to down the line, I would install maybe a respectable looking Beckson centered in the V behind the splashguard. You would want to be able to reach the mast step, and it would be a reach, but you want to keep this classy.

Hopefully the spars and blades are up to the caliber of this boat. The hull condition, too. If so, this would be appealing to even hard-core racers (assuming also the weight is correct).

If maintained as close to pristine as possible, and if the rest of the gear is equivalent condition, this is a boat that you could enjoy for years and end up eventually selling for what you paid for it. The picture shows it on a dolly. Hopefully the owner used the dolly and babied the hull.

If the dolly comes with it, that is a nice plus. In any event, with this boat I would always use a dolly (no dragging). I would also probbly protect it with a hull cover.

 

[RobbyDeanSails]

Thanks again. As a newbie out here I am so amazed at the generosity of people like you who share your knowledge and unbiased opinions. Truth is, that I feel this is a boat too good to pass on, but since I am not really an educated consumer with years of personal sailing experience I was paranoid about the issues I noted. Then again, its a 10 year old boat so I know I shouldn't expect it to be in brand new condition!

Your comment about the placement of the crack in the mast step make a lot of sense and has put my mind at ease a bit. I clearly see how it would be much worse if it were closer to the opening of the hole at the top of the mast step as that would be the area that absorbs most of the movement/stress from the mast. I've never used Marinetex, but have heard people refer to it on these forums. I assume its something I can find rather easily at most marine stores? However, since the crack is pretty far down the hole it will be impossible to reach by hand. Any recommendations on how to apply and then sand it in a tight recessed area such as this?

As for the other components, after a very careful inspection the hull looks blemish free. The Daggerboard is the new composite style, the rudder and tiller are wood with the newer aluminum extension . . . all of which are in excellent condition. The mast and spares also appear to be in excellent condition The sail is a white racing sail and appears to be in fine shape, but a little(although the sail does have some sticky adhesive residue where numbers had been applied). I actually spoke to the service people at North Sail and they said it would come off easily with acetone and not do any damage to the sail. . . confirming that acetone is what they use all the time to get duct tape-like adhesive reside off of sails sent in for repair). As for mast and spars, what are the typical things to look out for other than making sure they are straight?

The only thing that seems to be missing is the bungee retainer cord and brummel hooks that wrap around the front pull handle (something I'm sure I can get for just a few bucks when I pick up the Marinetex). What is the length of bungee that I will need? And, is it customary to attach it to the front pull handle? I seem to recall reading where some people wrap it around the mast, but not sure what works best.

But wait . . . there's more! It is being sold with a Seitech dolly (also is excellent condition)! The whole package is being offered for $850. Looks like I'm buying me a boat tomorrow!!!

Will keep you posted. Again, thank you SO MUCH for answering my novice questions. Hopefully this exchange will help others as well when things at first blush seem a bit too good to be true.

Best,

Rob

 

[minifish2]

Thanks again. As a newbie out here I am so amazed at the generosity of people like you who share your knowledge and unbiased opinions. Truth is, that I feel this is a boat too good to pass on, but since I am not really an educated consumer with years of personal sailing experience I was paranoid about the issues I noted. Then again, its a 10 year old boat so I know I shouldn't expect it to be in brand new condition!

Your comment about the placement of the crack in the mast step make a lot of sense and has put my mind at ease a bit. I clearly see how it would be much worse if it were closer to the opening of the hole at the top of the mast step as that would be the area that absorbs most of the movement/stress from the mast. I've never used Marinetex, but have heard people refer to it on these forums. I assume its something I can find rather easily at most marine stores? However, since the crack is pretty far down the hole it will be impossible to reach by hand. Any recommendations on how to apply and then sand it in a tight recessed area such as this?

As for the other components, after a very careful inspection the hull looks blemish free. The Daggerboard is the new composite style, the rudder and tiller are wood with the newer aluminum extension . . . all of which are in excellent condition. The mast and spares also appear to be in excellent condition The sail is a white racing sail and appears to be in fine shape, but a little(although the sail does have some sticky adhesive residue where numbers had been applied). I actually spoke to the service people at North Sail and they said it would come off easily with acetone and not do any damage to the sail. . . confirming that acetone is what they use all the time to get duct tape-like adhesive reside off of sails sent in for repair). As for mast and spars, what are the typical things to look out for other than making sure they are straight?

The only thing that seems to be missing is the bungee retainer cord and brummel hooks that wrap around the front pull handle (something I'm sure I can get for just a few bucks when I pick up the Marinetex). What is the length of bungee that I will need? And, is it customary to attach it to the front pull handle? I seem to recall reading where some people wrap it around the mast, but not sure what works best.

But wait . . . there's more! It is being sold with a Seitech dolly (also is excellent condition)! The whole package is being offered for $850. Looks like I'm buying me a boat tomorrow!!!

Will keep you posted. Again, thank you SO MUCH for answering my novice questions. Hopefully this exchange will help others as well when things at first blush seem a bit too good to be true.

This is a great boat at a fantastic price. The rest of your description was better than I expected. I would buy it pronto. Actually I really would buy it pronto....if for any reason.....

If you had said almost double that price, with the dolly and equipped like that, I wouldn't have flinched.

Be assured that boats of that vintage are highly regarded - I'd probably just as soon have that hull as a brand new one. The quality control then was as good or better.

West Marine carries Marinetex or you can get it on line. Application there will be tricky and we can over that separately.

From the sail number outline you can probably figure out the original owner. I would be very sparing with the acetone if you go that route as you will likely be able to see where you cleaned with that for a long time. It will work, though. First I might try some mild detergent, and if necessary just a little bit of GooGone on a clean rag, lightly rubbing it, not scrubbing. Less is better. Before doing that though, I would spring for a Sunfish Class membership and get your own numbers assigned and sent.. They'll go right over where the old ones were and might even cover a lot of the residue.

Don't sweat the small stuff. Go to the APS site or Intensity Sails site, to the Sunfish section and get their stock Sunfish bungee and such. I tie both ends of my daggerboarf retaining bungee off a few inches up the upper mast, which can be convenient in light air. I just use the bungee alone, but some prefer it with clips. Some people just tie the bungee off around the mast.

If the boom doesn't have them already, spring for the pair of velcro mainsheet hangers for $10 or so. See what you think about the mainsheet that comes with it, But for high end stuff like Rooster, APS is good. On the Intensity site, the better mainsheets are in the Laser section.

They are expensive ($190) but for that boat I would seriously consider springing for a hull cover sometime.

Opinions vary and many on his site use that swivel mainsheet cleat, but if it were my boat that would be the first thing to go, replaced by a nice Ronstan or Harken block (and the $1 spring).

While this article is dated, it is still one of the better guides for setting up your boat:
sunfishclass.org/documents/tuning_guide.pdf

I'm envious - you are getting a nice boat.

 

[Breeze Bender]

Definitely a great deal! Beautiful boat! Grab it quick at that price!

 

[RobbyDeanSails]

THANKS so much to everyone who joined in on this forum to lend support to my issues. I'm please to say that I now own the boat and took it out for a first sail this afternoon. It handled great . . . and the truth is that this boat is significantly better than my sailing skills!!! But, I felt confident even though conditions were not optimal. I sail in a moderate size creek that empties out to a bay that empties out to the Ocean. Wind speed (approx. 13MPH) was a little much for my very basic skills, but when I "caught it" and wasn't too paranoid about how fast I was going (or felt like I was going) it was INCREDIBLY EXHILARATING and SO MUCH FUN!!!

A few things I learned from may maiden adventure:

1) I can't be afraid to hike back. That said it would definitely help if I had a hiking strap!!! Will probably pick one up tomorrow. Hardware is already mounted on boat. Just need strap. Any recommendations (or are they all fairly the same for my basic non-competitive day-sailing needs)?

2) The life vest (PFD) I had on was horrible. Not that I needed it (I didn't flip!), but the main sheet kept getting caught on the back of it when "coming about". Its the PFD I use when Kayacking . . . a very good one which feels like it has foam blocks sewn into pockets of an outer shell. I think the mainsheet kept getting wedged between the foam blocks on the back. I know, that sounds ridiculous, but it happened more time that I would have cared for!! Is there a better/smoother/less cumbersome PFD you can recommend for sailing?

3) As I said, winds were approx. 13mph. (maybe a bit more). I realize it is all relative to ones personal taste, but what is considered light, mild, strong, etc.? I'm sure many of you live for strong wind, but for now, for me, I think something in the 5 - 10 mph range would be ideal. Curious to hear whatever "wind stories" you folks have.

4) AsI noted, I sailing in a creek (not a small body of water by any means) surrounded by land, marinas, houses, trees, etc. (kind of like swimming in a fish bowl). As a result, it felt like the direction of the wind kept changing way too often (I assume depending what obstacles I happened to be passing by at the time that blocked or let wind pass through). Control and handling was definitely better when further away from shore and out in more open water. Once I get my confidence up a bit I will need to get out into the open bay (something that may need to happen sooner rather than latter due to issue #5 below!).

5) I went out at low tide and the dagger board was hitting bottom WAY TO OFTEN! This meant that I had to raise and lower it frequently in order to move. Problem is that I couldn't get it to stay up when I needed it to. That made it cumbersome to hold the tiller with one hand, the main sheet with the other and the daggerboard with . . . .! Exactly, it felt like I needed at least three hands to even move at all at times. I understand that you're supposed to tie a bungee through the daggerboard hole and then around the bow handle with with so-called brummel hooks or sister clips. Is the idea there that the tension form the stretched bungee will act as a grip that holds the daggerboard in the position you want? Any explanation/guidance would be most appreciated here (including length of bungee cord needed and where/how to place it.

6) Good news is that any of the stress cracks (including the one down in the mast step) held up perfectly without getting any worse. I have a feeling that the advice I got out previously was right . . . not a major issues. Nonetheless, I will take the advise of many and use Marine Tex, the "go-to" wonder product to address the crack issues I had as precaution, if nothing else. (again, particularly in the mast step). That said, any suggestions for applying it (especially in hard to reach areas) or other advice from those that have worked with it is GREATLY APPRECIATED. Minifish2, in a prior post you said "application there (down in the mast step) will be tricky and we can over that separately". Would love to hear whatever advice you may have on this when you have the time.

Wishing you all the very best and safe sailing!

 

[sailcraftri]

Hiking strap from Intensity sails...http://www.intensitysails.com/ingrhistfors.html

Mainsheet hangers from Intensity Sails...http://www.intensitysails.com/mamahaforsus.html

JC Strap from Intensity Sails...http://www.intensitysails.com/jcstbucomawi.html

I don't work for Intensity but he has the best collection of parts.

 

[minifish2]

6) Good news is that any of the stress cracks (including the one down in the mast step) held up perfectly without getting any worse. I have a feeling that the advice I got out previously was right . . . not a major issues. Nonetheless, I will take the advise of many and use Marine Tex, the "go-to" wonder product to address the crack issues I had as precaution, if nothing else. (again, particularly in the mast step). That said, any suggestions for applying it (especially in hard to reach areas) or other advice from those that have worked with it is GREATLY APPRECIATED. Minifish2, in a prior post you said "application there (down in the mast step) will be tricky and we can over that separately". Would love to hear whatever advice you may have on this when you have the time.

Wishing you all the very best and safe sailing!

First off, let’s do some visualization. Take just a minute and watch this video, maybe a couple of times:

As an aside, and a bonus, I don’t know exactly what colors were offered which model years but it looks like his Sunfish is close to the same vintage as yours. I think everyone here would agree that you have a pretty nice boat. If you baby it, it will be particularly nice for years.

I would always use the dolly when I used the boat; roll the sail carefully and without creasing, or hang it from the spars in the garage or basement; adhere a couple of protective tabs to the top and bottom inside edges of your daggerboard trunk (for newer boats like yours with the smooth-finished trunks, many folks use the soft half of Velcro tabs) to prevent chipping when you accidently hit bottom with the board.

From strictly a cosmetic stand-point, you can avoid scratching those arcs you often see into the decks by using something protective, like a bit duct tape, on the lower spar and tiller where they make contact. Even the stock protective plastic caps can leave scrapes across those stripes.

Take sailcraftri’s advice and get those few items he recommended. The bungee will hold your board up. I cringed when I read about grounding – even if in mud. Your presumably class-legal board would cost over $350 to replace if it busted, plus you can damage the trunk. I would suggest getting an old board for messing around. After breaking a couple myself, I got an Intensity knock-off and save the expensive legal one for when it’s required.

I usually use a life vest similar to yours, but I also use two of those mainsheet hangars (between the boom blocks) and don’t have problems. If you still have problems when tacking you can have a look at the pricey ones, but it’s best to try before you buy. What works for teens doesn’t always fit like we imagine. http://www.apsltd.com/c-3502-life-jackets-pfds-tethers.aspx
http://www.apsltd.com/c-3502-life-jackets-pfds-tethers.aspx
Getting the basics down is easier at 5-10mph than higher, but there is something to be said for learning in windy conditions. Especially practice tacking, sailing close-hauled and doing tight tacks into the wind without stalling. I would re-read the Scott Kyle article, a couple of times, as boat set-up makes an enormous difference. http://sunfishclass.org/documents/tuning_guide.pdf

If you don’t have a gooseneck adjuster, you might pick one up, and use a magic marker on the lower spar to mark ‘inches’ settings, as described in the article. The setting does make a difference, as does using a ‘vang’ on windy days, as Kyle describes.

I was on the fence on whether I would fill or patch the mast step. I’d try filling first, and just take a bit of care taking the mast in and out so as not to make it worse. Recently I posted something on using MarineTex: http://sailingforums.com/threads/repair-help.28955/#post-134711 The key is making sure the MarineTex is actually setting (getting warm quickly) before applying it.

In this case I would use some clean paint stirrers to apply a little bit, like spreading peanut butter, but sparingly. You are just filling the open area. Then I would take some smooth waxed paper, put it in the step, and smooth it over the patched area with a clean paint stick, without wrinkling the paper. Let it harden and dry like that at least a day, then remove the wax paper.

See if that works. After days like your recent windy one, put the boat on its side and see if you can get any water out of the side drain plug. If not, you should still be good.

 

[signal charlie]

One solution to the pfd is to wear a thirty OVER it. Also how far back is your gooseneck set from the tack, and where is your halyard tied? Your boom might be too low for now, until you get used to the boat. 24 inches back on a gooseneck and 60 inches down from the gaff outhaul is a good recreational sail rig.

And yes the tension from a bungee will hold up the board, 8 feet of 1/4 inch bungee will get you all the way thru the bow handle but going around the base of the mast below the gooseneck works just as well

Paint stick, broken in half lengthwise

8-10 knots is what we like for goofing off. You might have short steep waves in the area you described, makes it a bit harder to tack.

Nice boat!