Exactly. None of this would be happening without LP's global dominance (93 % of WS member nations, if my count is right), and its incompetence in adequately serving that market. The whole territorial trademark monopoly system that's been in place since 1983 probably breaks all competition laws anyway. WS isn't against single-manufacturer classes per se, but the spirit (and letter) of these documents isn't exactly encouraging for operators like LP:All the documentation mentions "ILCA", but we all know the bogeyman in all of this is LP.
We're talking about the monopoly within the Laser class. Or rather, it's a set of regional monopolies, but the individual consumer is limited to one choice nevertheless. I have personally tried buying certain Australian parts (which at the time were fundamentally different to the European counterparts) and was refused!A monopoly exist only where there is no alternative and the supplier controls the market, in sailing there are alternatives to the Laser.
Exclusive distribution rights which is what you're talking about are still excluded from the definition of monopolies. There are still alternatives to them. If anything, the builders, distributors and the ILCA act in a quasi cartel.We're talking about the monopoly within the Laser class. Or rather, it's a set of regional monopolies, but the individual consumer is limited to one choice nevertheless. I have personally tried buying certain Australian parts (which at the time were fundamentally different to the European counterparts) and was refused!
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It's a fact that there are "several" (three) Laser builders producing "several" (about two) thousand boats/year, but it's also a fact that they all are regional monopolies, with one of them (LaserPerformance, in England) covering roughly 90 % of the global market.So we have a "monopoly " with Laser, BUT they have several very active manufacturing plants around the world still producing several thousand Lasers a year! Is that a fact or fiction , I don't Know.
They are all Single-Manufacturer One-Designs, sure, but there is all reason to believe that they are more than willing to adopt any WS-approved business model in exchange for Olympic status. That would likely include multiple more-or-less independent builders, and no regional restrictions on equipment sales. The big question is, is the Laser (ILCA and/or LP) willing to do the same?If there is only one manfacture of Areo, M14, or Devoti is that a Monopoly?
Devoti has its headquarters in Brno in the Czech Republic and a plant in Poland. I don't know if the D-Zeros are actually built there or somewhere else; England would at least be closer to their current core market.Let replace a class with 200K boats with a single manufacturer in , Italy, or France or GB do they have other manufacturing sites?
Could you be more specific about the "many field issues"?These classes cost 33-50% more than a new Laser and have built fewer that 3000 units, and have many field issues.
Yes. This is what the Laser class will likely need to do to stay in contention. Whether that will happen is highly dependent on LP, whom many of us have learned not to trust to do what is best for the sailors.A Laser Solution would be to certify new boat builders, who were certified and labeled for boats and parts and allow easy access of generic parts.
Is it a good thing for the bulk of regular, amateur sailors in a class for their class to be selected for the Olympic?
I sailed a Laser for over 30 years from the time way before it was in the Olympics. I didn't see any changes to the class that were of benefit to me after it became an Olympic class. And in some ways things got worse.
Now I sail an RS Aero and already it is being considered for the Olympics. Nobody asked us members of the RS Aero Class if we wanted this. And I am not sure how I would have answered if I had been asked.
More of my insane ramblings on this topic at RS Aero in the Olympics? – Aerobian
Sounds like a very bad idea. In practice you'd need two rigs instead of one, and/or to choose between "elite" and "people's" fleets. Can't see how anybody would be happy with that.I thought I read somewhere it was proposed to use a slightly different rig for the Olympic RS Aeros, which would isolate the existing class from Olympic shenanigans.
Sounds like a very bad idea. In practice you'd need two rigs instead of one, and/or to choose between "elite" and "people's" fleets. Can't see how anybody would be happy with that.
Can you find the source for this?
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That's a good point of view!
It will take years before another Dinghy class can match this sort of sailing-coaching-sailing-coaching level. And it will take a few years before we (sailors, trainers, those who have an interest) have reached the level of 'understanding' the new dinghy. As said, I don't mind replacing the Laser, but the period to the Olympics is too short.
I don't know how long an optimal transition period might be, but this time it would be a whole year longer than before. In the past, Olympic classes have been chosen only after the previous games.I don't mind replacing the Laser, but the period to the Olympics is too short.
I don't think that is a problem. Just like there were cat people ready to jump into the Nacra 17, there are even more singlehanded sailors eager to get their hands on a new Olympic singlehander. What I am worried about is that dropping the Laser would further deepen the division between the elite and the grassroots, which is especially problematic in a small sailing country like mine.Most boats that were 'changed' over the years, were boats that attracted experienced sailors from other classes. (The Argentinian Nacra 17 winners are a great example of that). Changing a 'fundamental' boat from Laser to ... should be done with a longer timescale in mind.
Might you be able to strike some deal with the Portuguese Melges 14 builder?As for testing the new boats: most Dutch National (& National Youth) Squad members are off to Vilamoura in December, January and February. Launching a few of these test-dinghies in Vilamoura would give instant response and feedback - and enough interested sailors.
Thanks Rob for clearing up things a little. That means the Laser is setting itself up for a benchmark role at the Sea-trials: are the new boats technically advanced enough to warrant a change?I was told from the NA class office the word from Andy Roy and Tracey Usher was we're sticking with the current full and radial rigs for the Olympic trials.
From the C5 thread:Thanks Rob for clearing up things a little. That means the Laser is setting itself up for a benchmark role at the Sea-trials: are the new boats technically advanced enough to warrant a change?
It would be a gamble for the Laser to take the "C" rigs to the trials and take the risk of still losing outright to some (or even all) of the others. But it's also a gamble to place all the bets on a political victory next November.
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Yes, it takes no genius to figure out that the Australian C-rig won't be in the Olympic trial event because LP would object. Moreover, the Laser was invited to participate, not some non-legal off-shoot.
I think past trials have consisted mostly simply of free sailing and some course racing. Some measurement (such as weighing) may also take place.what and how are they going to test the various designs
Every WS member nation is entitled to send one male and one female sailor. One would think any bias would be toward the Laser, as it's what the test group most certainly will be most familiar with.who's going to sail the boats (non-biased...)
The place will be chosen in a couple of weeks, and of course it would be best to have a wide variety of conditions there. Marseille would be the "natural" choice, but I can think of places like Garda and Barcelona being in the running, too.where are they going to be tested: waves, wind force etc)
Noam I too naive to ask these questions?
February, March, or April. Supposed to be chosen in January. Any day now.It's either in the FB post from LP or Andy Roy's letter in the Laser Sailor about the trials being in the first quarter of 2019. So, that's any month now...
Well, it didn't take even a week: Information for ILCA Members About New Rig Development – International Laser Class AssociationAt this point I'd say all bets are off until we get "official" notices in writing from the ILCA.
It's quite a monumental achievement... I saw the C5 thread featured in a Sailworld Facebook post recently as well...Well, it didn't take even a week: Information for ILCA Members About New Rig Development – International Laser Class Association
I think people high up in ILCA have been reading this forum lately... at least it's nice to think we've actually influenced them to come out in public. Special thanks to Rob B!
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Well, it didn't take even a week: Information for ILCA Members About New Rig Development – International Laser Class Association
I think people high up in ILCA have been reading this forum lately... at least it's nice to think we've actually influenced them to come out in public. Special thanks to Rob B!
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