Mid 70s 470

[LaLi]

I measured the mast step a while ago but I guess I forgot to put the measurements in here. From the Aft measurement point to the back of the mast is 10 feet almost exactly.

3048 mm is close enough to solve this one by simply moving the bolt to the forward hole. But it's strange that the mast step looks like it has been moved aft from an original position.

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[Pierson]

Wow were on a second page now!

The boat is still flipped over on blocks. Sanding and waxing is done. The hull is looking so much better than before.
I did my best to remove the corrosion on those metal pieces. I think Im gonna sail the boat first and see how much water comes in. When I replace the gaskets Im going to try to reuse the metal pieces if I can.

Im gonna flip it over probably today or tomorrow so I'll have to make sure I measured correctly. The mast step was moved back at one point but I think if I just move the bolt like you said it will all work fine. What is the correct length of the forestay wire? I think i'll end up just adding some line in to lengthen instead of buying a longer wire. Do you think my stays have been in the right place? I just put them in the spot that looked most worn.

 

[LaLi]

What is the correct length of the forestay wire? I think i'll end up just adding some line in to lengthen instead of buying a longer wire.

The correct length is the maximum length, or at least reasonably close to it... I can't give you a number, but the method of measurement is in class rule C9.2(a)(4) on page 12 of the class rules. The diagram describes it better than any words.

Do you think my stays have been in the right place? I just put them in the spot that looked most worn.

1) There's no guarantee whatsoever that the former owners had any idea how to tune the boat, and 2) The whole answer to "what is the right shroud setting?" is worth its own thread. I have toyed with the idea of writing a post/thread/resource with the title "Basic 470 tuning for newbies" so one wouldn't have to repeat the same things over and over again... But the short answer is: you'll find out when you start tuning. You already have the mast step figured out, and a working jib halyard tensioning system. Now you need a long tape measure (ten metres or so) to get the rake right. Ideally you also need a tension meter for the luff wire, but you likely have to make compromises about that (more on that later) so it's not a must. If you can borrow one it's a plus.

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[Pierson]

You should totally make a tuning thread! That discussion would be pretty interesting. And it would not only help people new to the boat but it would probably teach experienced sailers as well.

Is the right forestay length when the widest part of the mast is at the very back of the mast gate? I remember seeing that somewhere. I think 420s are the same. Why does this matter if the forestay doesn't have any tension on it when the jib is up?

Surprisingly my jib doesn't have a luff wire. Well there is a wire in the luff but it isn't adjustable and you cant take it out of the sail. I would like to get new(new to me) sails but no one really sells used 470 sails. I don't think my sails are blown out really they just aren't crisp like new ones.

I think I just need to print out a tuning guide and start working on it once my lines come

 

[LaLi]

Is the right forestay length when the widest part of the mast is at the very back of the mast gate?

Yes - like in the link in my previous post

Why does this matter if the forestay doesn't have any tension on it when the jib is up?

It's because you want the shrouds to be as loose as possible when adjusting them.

Could you post pictures of the head and tack areas of your jib? Is the luff wire sewn in place?

(I see you've already contacted David Hughes. Guys like him usually have tons of relatively little-used sails at very good prices.)

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[Pierson]

Ya when I have my mast up with no sails the shrouds are not loose like a 420s.

I emailed Mr. Hughes about a week ago but id imagine he's pretty busy so he hasn't responded. I might shoot him another one in the next few days if he doesn't respond but I'm not really in a huge rush to get new sails anyways.

I'll post some pictures of the jib later today.

 

[Pierson]

Here are those pictures of the jib.
I’ve started splicing my lines today. Looking good so far!
I also got the mast in the right spot.

 

[LaLi]

The magic box: I actually had one of those Harkens (a bigger one though) in my 505 Hope it works ok.
But is the hook the right way?

The jib: ok, so you adjust neither sail height nor luff tension on that one...
Is that a snap shackle (or something similar) on the luff just below the head? (Just take it off.)
If you're buying new (used) sails, remember to ask to include a luff wire for the jib. It's not necessarily included, as they haven't been attached like that for the last fortysomething years...

The forestay: now you see how pointless a hole-plate adjuster is at that position. Might as well change it to a small shackle. (What's the big shackle for?)
The black rope is fine as a temporary solution, and it's now easy to measure the right length for a more permanent wire extension.

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[Pierson]

I went sailing yesterday. Its so smooth and planes very easily! No water came in through the centerboard trunk either. I had everything dialed in pretty well apart from the vang. I just need to shorten up the primary lines and I'll be good I think. Everything felt pretty balanced apart from a little weather helm and the old plastic tiller didn't help with steering. When we were planing I didn't have any weather helm though. It kinda felt like driving a Melges 32 when it was planing... Super responsive.

The sails flew really nicely and I don't know if I really need new ones.

The big shackle up on the bow is for trailering.

How were the jib ratchets originally attached to the cars on older boats like mine?

I tried to attach some video but it won't let me.

 

[Pierson]

I put it in at the north end of Canandaigua Lake. US 1214 will know where that is.

 

[torrid]

Sail this boat. Have fun with it. Looks like you are learning a lot with sweat equity/doing it yourself.

Don't spend too much money on it.

 

[US 1214]

Canandaigua yup.

Looks great!

Did you end up using mast chocks?

 

[LaLi]

Oh, you already put it in the water What tuning numbers did you use The mast looks (as one would expect) awfully straight and upright...

How were the jib ratchets originally attached to the cars on older boats like mine?

Can't say for sure anymore but I assume with a swiveling shackle to an eyestrap on the car + an optional standup spring. Having problems with that?

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[Pierson]

We made one chock that we thought would work for the wind strength we were going to see and then just hoped it was the right size.

I haven’t tuned it yet but I’ve setup as much as I could according to the tuning guides. It felt really balanced even without tuning. But those numbers will be cool to see once I borrow a tension gauge.

I can get more jib hall. tension that I would ever want without the hull deforming at all so that’s a big positive. I read somewhere I ready that older boats can usually take about 320 pounds before the hull deforms but I must have had every bit of that when I was testing it on land.

I had the jib ratchet tied on because I couldn’t fit a shackle through the holes but both chaffed off. I lost one of the springs but I’ve got a few spares. I might take some wire and use that. I’ll have to send a picture or the cars.

 

[LaLi]

Rake. Rake is the single most important tuning variable. Did you measure it, and if so, how much did you have? Which tuning guides are you using?

How much tension a hull can take varies quite a bit from boat to boat, and there really is no "safe" number. One practical limit is when the walls of the centreboard case get pushed together so that the board jams... or something actually breaks. All 470s built since the late 1980s should be rigid enough to take practically anything, but what you get with earlier boats is somewhat of a lottery. Sounds like you've been lucky!

(By the way: last time I went to my club I noticed a new boat had turned up next to my Laser... a Roga 470 from 1975! Appeared to be in excellent shape for its age. Got to get a test ride later in the year )

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[Pierson]

I never measured the rake and since my sailing practices have been canceled I have no way to get a tension gauge until it’s reopened.

I would send some video of my last excursion but I can’t attach any. We sailed into a lull and I went flying around the bow. Very fun!

What color is the roga 470? Your gonna have to get out on it.

Not 470 related but I made all new rigging for my laser. Any pro laser tips?

 

[Pierson]

I just realized there are no pictures of the spinnaker up!
The purple and orange somehow work really well...

 

[LaLi]

We sailed into a lull and I went flying around the bow. Very fun!

What color is the roga 470?

Teal-ish blue. I actually remember the boat from many, many years ago when it was located some 100 km from here... it’s clearly been updated from its mid-70s configuration in some smart-looking ways. I’ll try to get some pictures once I meet the owner.

I made all new rigging for my laser. Any pro laser tips?

Welcome to spliceamania But seriously, you’ve got some pretty cool details there. What’s that splice at the end of the cleating (coloured) lines? Did you take some of the core out?

Things I’d do differently: I like the cunningham & outhaul deck blocks to be as close as possible to the plate ( to minimize interference with the vang), so I use ”forkhead”-style blocks there.

Class rule stuff: the cunningham primary line shouldn’t be attached to the vang cleating fitting with a hook/shackle/anything really. A quick pin should be fine (or just tie it).

Also, you can’t have spliced loop handles like the one on your traveller; control lines may have splices only at the load-bearing attachment points.

Anyway, extra credit for the Allen vang cleating fitting which I prefer over the overrated Harken

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[Pierson]

I think I’ve got at most 5 knots on the entire boat only because I couldn’t splice it.
I went a little overboard but I would have rather spent all day doing that with my neighbors watching me like I’m a crazy person than study inside!

For the splices in the control lines I did a lock splice like you would do in dyneema but instead of only twice then burying the end I did it 4 or 5 times then melted the end. I couldn’t do a double braid splice and then I tried to do a reeve but I couldn't because my fids were too big and I don't have a wire fid. I tried to make soft and wire fids but they didn’t work so I resorted to this. I think they are plenty strong but I’ll have to keep an eye on them.

I found an English company called southeast sailboats selling their Cunningham with a carabiner where my hook thing is so maybe the rules not very enforced is it?

I also found a Russian company selling a traveler with the spliced loop. I did that because the line I used for the new traveler was slightly smaller than the old line and I used to have problems with the old one slipping in the cleat. With the splice it makes the line bigger so it sits in the cleat nicer. It’s defiantly against the rules bc I know you can’t have any tapers or anything in your lines.

Do you mark your settings on your boom and vang? I found a good video on where to put them on the vang but I’m not sure the best way to mark settings for outhaul and Cunningham. I’m in a full rig 95% of the time if that makes any difference. I think I’ve only done maybe 3 radial regattas.

 

[LaLi]

Splicing is fun I overlooked it for a long time, until one day I realized that I hadn't untied most knots on my boat(s) for years. Got a fid and a guidebook and started experimenting, and soon my Lightning had 3 mm Dyneema and eye splices everywhere

I've tested "no-bury" splices like those once or twice, and they seem to be strong enough. If that rope is Marlow Excel Control, you can even take the core out as it's the cover that takes the load. (And you probably noticed that the black fibres don't melt.)

Southeast Sailboats generally know what they're doing, but there's no guarantee that their (or anybody else's) equipment is fully legal, nor are they even responsible for that. (The sailor always is.)
The relevant class rules are about making a distinction between "optional" blocks and "builder supplied" fittings, and you can attach hooks and the like only to the former. It makes no sense whatsoever, but that's how it is Enforcing is still whole another matter.

One can be highly skeptical about anything that comes out of Russia, but that traveller line looks like perfectly normal Dyneema. Is there a loop at the other end? If not, you have it backwards - the line is intended to be tied to the loop at the apex of the triangle that the traveller forms.
The "even-thickness" rule is not very well-written either, because splice length isn't restricted. I'm pretty sure though that splices aren't intended to extend into cleats!

I used to have marks at the back end of the boom for the outhaul, but once you know where the floating block is located at different settings then you look at that. The same goes for the other systems. In fact, for the vang you look at the boom height off the deck and/or the boom/mast angle, and when adjusting the cunningham you simply look at the sail shape. No need for marks really.

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[Pierson]

Yes I used Marlow excel and yes the black bits don’t melt which was a confusing surprise.
It’s good to know that I can take the core out. I’ll have a lot of the stuff left. Is there a way to tell by looking at a line if the core or shell is

I looked at the rules and they say for splices that you can have them at load bearing attachment points. Im
just gonna say that the cleatis load barring where the line attaches to the cleat.
I made the traveler out of line I ordered so there is a smaller splice at the other end where you tie the overhand knot.
I’ll have to find the part about the distinction of builder supplied parts.

I’ve always just looked at the sail shape and guessed if it’s good enough but to have marks sounds much more repeatable.

This is probably a question for the laser class politic forums but what do you think about the new radial carbon bottom section? Why not give all the rigs the carbon bottom? And wont this give a more unfair advantage to the people without one? If you’ve got both the carbon top and bottom that’s gotta be a 15-20 pound reduction in weight.

 

[Wavedancer]

The composite Laser masts are supposed to weigh the same as the Al ones.

 

[LaLi]

Is there a way to tell by looking at a line if the core or shell is

...load bearing? Not by just looking. But as you've seen, trial by fire may work. Dyneema puffs up and becomes "cauliflower" looking when heated with a lighter flame, while basically nothing happens to aramids like the Technora in your lines. Practically all other common marine rope fibres melt. So if the cover melts, then it's most likely that the core is the load-bearing part. Ropes with a load-bearing but not high-tech cover include anti-kink sheets like Rooster Polilite.

I looked at the rules and they say for splices that you can have them at load bearing attachment points. Im just gonna say that the cleatis load barring where the line attaches to the cleat.

That's a pretty creative interpretation... and one that definitely is not the intention of the rule
But HEY, you actually LOOKED AT THE RULES. That itself is something rare and laudable I always have a hard time understanding how nearly all sailors rely on hearsay and folklore instead.

I’ll have to find the part about the distinction of builder supplied parts.

It's rule 3.a.vi that says which types of items may be attached and how. The vang cleating fitting isn't included.

Why not give all the rigs the carbon bottom?

I don't think there's any need to. It's the Radial masts that have been prone to bend permanently or break. The Standard/4.7 section has a thicker wall.

(If you want to talk more about Lasers, let's do it in the Laser Forum.)

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[btaylor]

Was red a common color for early hulls? I’ve got a red 1974 in upstate as well, frankly I’m surprised there’s two of the same vintage in the same area. Have fun! View attachment 35749

Hi, I love the red! My 1976 Vanguard 470 sail number 1358 has a weird pumpkin orange gel coat finish but other than that the restoration is coming along. Question: my boom appears to be missing the mainsail tack attachment point. Anyway you could send me a photo of that area? Also a photo of your main sheet routing? Mine is the same. Will send photos later of my project.

 

[LaLi]

my boom appears to be missing the mainsail tack attachment point.

You don't need one; just tie the tack to the mast with a length of thin line. I haven't looked at this specifically, but I believe it's how it's done on all top boats today.

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[btaylor]

Thanks, I have never seen a tie to the mast method. On my Catalina Capri 14.2, Club Flying Junior (CFJ), Y-Flyer (sold this year), Precision 16 (sold this year) and my MacGregor 26 - they all have a tack attachment method - thanks for the tip. So far I am focused on just the basics: main halyard - working, jib halyard with the original magic box - working (too lazy to make a block style 8:1 and run to the cockpit so I cleaned and ran new line in the magic box), able to raise and trim the mainsail - working, able to raise and trim the jib - working, center board adjustable - working, standing rigging inspected and looks okay, rudder and tiller (have two) are okay and working, traveler works, hull is in okay shap (fixed a big gash and "painted" the hull with oil based enamel), trailer bearings repacked and new seals, broken fiberglass trailer to boat mount - fixed, bunk carpet on the special trailer mount - done, trailer lights - fixed, rust bucket trailer cleaned and "painted" black, broken axle shackles - replaced, larger trailer tires (had them from another sailboat trailer), added a tongue jack because I was tired of breaking my back, trailer registered because rangers are checking, boat registered with the Ohio Department of Natural Resources sticker - park rangers check them - whew! I washed the sails and inspected (have two sets) and the photo is just showing the sails "drying". Nothing is rigged yet. I have ordered a generic rub rail because the pop rivets in that rub rail actually seem to be part of the deck and hull connection - not sure - but the ragged rub rail looks terrible. Just wish I could do something about the awful orange gel coat - too much work for me right now. Weather permitting I should be able to sail her soon and see if she floats!

the park

 

[btaylor]

I found this link that shows the mainsail tack to mast and the tuning method. By chance my 1976 Vanguard 470 came with North Sails mainsail with the elastic type foot. Tips for Adjusting the Bolt Rope on Your 470 Mainsail