Mid 70s 470

[Pierson]

Hey everyone. Im hoping this thread gains some traction and people respond.

I am a high school sailer in New York and I just bought a mid 70s 470 sail number 510. Im not sure exactly what year its from but I'm thinking after 1973 but before 1980.

Does anyone know if there was a lot of 470 racing in New York back when the class was big? I only know of 2 470s in New York State.

While I have a good idea of what everything is for there are a few things which are a bit confusing. Can anyone point me in the right direction in the best way to rig this? Every boat from this era looks a little bit different and that's kind of why its difficult to pinpoint a year. I don't want to give it a complete overhaul but I would like to update some things. Just to make it work well and go as fast as possible.
What can you guys tell me about it?

Where do I cleat the jib halyard? There used to be a magic box on the mast but I don't see any where to cleat it on the mast. Was it led back somewhere?

On both tanks there is a harken 29mm block that lines up with the roller on the centerboard trunk but it is turned horizontally. It would make sense to put a cleat for the Cunningham there but the block is in the wrong orientation and it looks like there is a horn cleat on the mast for that. What is that block there for? How would the Cunningham be rigged as the boat is?

The boat needs spinnaker hardware but I have the spinnaker from this boat (its all purple) and a spin pole from another boat that would probably work. Did this boat originally have spinnaker rigging on it? Why would it be taken off and not replaced with new stuff? It looks to me like there are holes for where some spin hardware might have been.

The trapeze has been rigged with Murray ball and socket stuff. It feels cheap and the receiver (which I don't have) to go on the harness itself is 150$. To me this is an absurd price for something which isn't universal to all trapeze harnesses so I'm probably going to take it off and put standard stuff on like you would see on any c420 or Hobie or anything. Good plan or is the Murray stuff better? What was original to the boat?

The gooseneck goes into a track on the mast but there is nothing keeping it from falling out the bottom. Will it stay on the mast when the sails are up? There are a bunch of holes drilled in that area. If anyone responds I can send pictures.

In the pictures you might be able to see on the starboard side there is a block on the floor just behind the centerboard trunk. What does that do? Under the combing of the centerboard trunk there is a block hanging under 2 silver screws which you can see on the top of the centerboard trunk are these 2 blocks related? What do they do? it looks like it might work as a purchase for the downhaul for spin pole or maybe its part of the jib hallyard system?

Is the shoelace stitching on the gunwale original? I think it is based on other pictures I've seen.

There is a soft spot on the starboard side tank just behind the shroud chainplate. What is the best way to fix this?

As I peel back the layers of history of this boat its cool to see what each owners contribution was. Each modification dates its self. Various fittings have been taken off over the years( whether they were replaced or not) and I'm getting a better idea of what everything was there for.

Thank you all. I can send more pictures if needed
.

 

[LaLi]

Hi Pierson,

just a short note before I delve into the details

The number US 510 points to the early 1970s, maybe '72. The boat looks somewhat newer though, so that main isn't necessarily originally from that boat. Does the Vanguard sticker/plaque next to the IYRU plaque say anything significant?

Lots of relevant information is already posted in these threads:

470 Layout
470 Questions

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[LaLi]

Where do I cleat the jib halyard? There used to be a magic box on the mast but I don't see any where to cleat it on the mast. Was it led back somewhere?

The jib halyard cleats traditionally on the top of the centreboard case in front of the traveller.
Magic boxes disappeared from all boats pretty soon after the 1970s as people realized that you had less friction with regular blocks. A typical multi-block system today would be a 12:1 but you can get away with less.

On both tanks there is a harken 29mm block that lines up with the roller on the centerboard trunk but it is turned horizontally. It would make sense to put a cleat for the Cunningham there but the block is in the wrong orientation and it looks like there is a horn cleat on the mast for that. What is that block there for? How would the Cunningham be rigged as the boat is?

Those blocks are most likely spinnaker sheet turning blocks. The only thing a horn cleat on the mast would be good for is the main halyard. The main cunningham can of course be double-ended, but I wouldn't bother with that; a single cleat on top of the centreboard case is good enough.

The boat needs spinnaker hardware but I have the spinnaker from this boat (its all purple) and a spin pole from another boat that would probably work. Did this boat originally have spinnaker rigging on it? Why would it be taken off and not replaced with new stuff? It looks to me like there are holes for where some spin hardware might have been.

What other boat is the spinnaker pole from? Your boat actually does have at least some spinnaker hardware, so it very likely had all of it. I believe Vanguard didn't sell spinnakerless 470s. Over the years, I've seen people remove perfectly good systems and replace them with something crappy, or nothing. It's a mystery

The trapeze has been rigged with Murray ball and socket stuff. It feels cheap and the receiver (which I don't have) to go on the harness itself is 150$. To me this is an absurd price for something which isn't universal to all trapeze harnesses so I'm probably going to take it off and put standard stuff on like you would see on any c420 or Hobie or anything. Good plan or is the Murray stuff better? What was original to the boat?

I believe the ball-socket harness plate is made of carbon fibre, so it's no wonder if it costs almost as much as a Laser tiller. It's inherently safer, but "normal" stainless rings + hook aren't likely to kill you, either. And those were what your boat originally had, plus handles that are very likely way too low.

The gooseneck goes into a track on the mast but there is nothing keeping it from falling out the bottom. Will it stay on the mast when the sails are up? There are a bunch of holes drilled in that area. If anyone responds I can send pictures.

The main and the boom will hold it on the mast but it shouldn't run up and down. You'll need a long tape measure (for which you'll have later use, too) and a riveter for this.

In the pictures you might be able to see on the starboard side there is a block on the floor just behind the centerboard trunk. What does that do? Under the combing of the centerboard trunk there is a block hanging under 2 silver screws which you can see on the top of the centerboard trunk are these 2 blocks related? What do they do? it looks like it might work as a purchase for the downhaul for spin pole or maybe its part of the jib hallyard system?

That could be anything. The blocks "inside" the top of the centreboard case aren't likely related to it. The spinnaker pole downhaul doesn't need a purchase, but it could be a turning block for the tail of the jib halyard adjustment. There should be a cleat somewhere in front of it, though,

Is the shoelace stitching on the gunwale original? I think it is based on other pictures I've seen.

It could, I am not sure when the practice started. Vanguard didn't do it, but it could still have been done by the original owner. Anyway, it's pretty neat and working, although I would add some non-slip material on the side decks.

There is a soft spot on the starboard side tank just behind the shroud chainplate. What is the best way to fix this?

If that's the only soft spot then the hull is incredibly stiff Unless there's a real risk of puncture, I wouldn't do a thing.

I'll blow up the pictures later today to see if there are any other interesting things visible (usually there are)

_

 

[LaLi]

Ok, let's go through the pictures...

Number 2: The Clamcleat is quite unusually placed; not the original way the centreboard uphaul was rigged.

3: Here you can see some of the (actual) 70s-typical centreboard adjustment system, with the cam cleats at the aft end of the case. Except that there are two through fairleads here, which indicates that some later owner didn't quite understand how this works (there's supposed to be only one uphaul line that comes through the port fairlead and cleats on either cleat). These cleats may have been repurposed for other systems.

4: The hiking straps obviously need some elastic lines to hold them up. The crew's straps are only in the way and should be removed.
The cleat at the extreme left is for the spinnaker halyard. Yes, you need to step on it to cleat it!

5: There's been a small cam cleat and a big Clamcleat here. For spinnaker guy and jibsheet, respectively, I guess.

6: These holes are a mystery! The ones on the left make sense for a guy hook/cleat, but there shouldn't be anything else on the foredeck. (Except jib cunningham fittings, but that's post-2000 equipment.)

7: Interesting chainplate with four holes. You have to measure which hole you can actually use for the shroud (I'll link to the class rules later, if you haven't found them yet). Also, it's not a good idea to have the trapeze elastic attached at the same place; you want to separate it from the shroud. The edge of the curved part of the side deck is a much better place.

8: The horn cleat on the mast makes no sense as the main halyard obviously locks on the hook that's visible in picture 3.
The trapeze system looks like it's rigged catamaran-style with the elastic pulling up instead of in. The handles are ok, but the wires are probably too long - you have to pull them tight along the mast to check that. No height adjustment either, so you have to rebuild the system anyway. The choice between the balls or rings is a separate issue, though.

12: The differing colour and the generally fresher appearance of the centreboard case top makes one think that the whole piece is a later replacement. The same goes for the centreboard itself, as I believe that Vanguard used exclusively wood for the foils at the time that the hull was built (what does the rudder look like?).
The angle/location of the vang cleats indicate that the line is supposed to go there directly from the centreboard case. That makes the other block(s) next to the traveller even more mysterious.

The whole boat looks like previous owners haven't always had a clue how a 470 works, and so they have added and deleted equipment in rather nonsensical ways. This is typical, but don't worry, it all looks totally fixable.

More pictures please! I'd like to see the mast step area, the mast gate area, the vang system, the underside of the centreboard case top...

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[Pierson]

Wow that was quick! I'll try to send some more pictures today. Thank you for taking so much time. I think I have seen you reply on other 470 forums like the layout and questions ones.

I think the boat was probably raced by the first owner or 2 but then the owners after that did not race it. You can only make the boat slower!

The centerboard and rudder are pretty much perfect, which would make sense if they were put on later. The rudder is fiberglass with no cutouts on the rudder head. Kinda looks like a big laser rudder. The tiller is wood with 2 plastic cleats for an up haul and down haul. Its got what presumably is the original tiller extension with metal universal joint.

The IYRU plaque says the serial number is 4978. So should I assume 78 is the year of the boat? and 49 being the number boat made in 78?

Wow you're good, the trapeze elastic is from a catamaran! I took it off and I'm gonna remount it where the new boats have it. Who ever put it on the boat didn't even bother to cut it to the right length...

The spinnaker pole I have is for an Oday daysailer. Its about 6'-6'4".

The vang that the boat came with is completely insufficient for the boat. Its one of the old style laser vangs jerry rigged to work on the 470. The old laser vangs weren't even enough for the laser so why they put one of those on this boat is just amazingly stupid.

The soft spot is the only soft spot and at most is about 8-10 inches in diameter. When I sit on it it will dip in a bit. I don't want to step or fall on it and end up putting my elbow through the hull. Other than that its the only structural issue other than the holes from old fittings.

So with your seemingly expert opinion, how would you rig the boat as it is. What would you put on and move and replace....How exactly would you run and cleat things? I plan on trying to sand some of the big scratches down and make the holes that I can't put finings over a little less visible. Maybe bring some of the color back too... well see.

Thanks again!

 

[US 1214]

Was red a common color for early hulls? I’ve got a red 1974 in upstate as well, frankly I’m surprised there’s two of the same vintage in the same area. Have fun!

 

[LaLi]

Was red a common color for early hulls?

Yes, and bright yellow, and turquoise, etc. Actually boats of all classes used to be more "colourful" back in the day. Evolution has led most new hulls to be all-white or pale grey, which sure is practical but boring. A fun fact is that 470 class rules don't require the bottom to be white anymore, but it's still unlikely we'll see anything else in the future.

By the way, you guys (Ryan and Pierson) should get together as you're so close to one another, if not for else than buying boat parts (such as spinnaker bags ).

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[LaLi]

The rudder is fiberglass with no cutouts on the rudder head. Kinda looks like a big laser rudder. The tiller is wood with 2 plastic cleats for an up haul and down haul. Its got what presumably is the original tiller extension with metal universal joint.

Except for the blade itself, sounds like original equipment from no later than 1973.

The IYRU plaque says the serial number is 4978. So should I assume 78 is the year of the boat? and 49 being the number boat made in 78?

No, the number only means that it's the 4978th plaque given by IYRU, and that the boat is (about) the 4978th 470 built since the class became international.

The spinnaker pole I have is for an Oday daysailer. Its about 6'-6'4".

Probably close enough. The max length of the 470 pole is 1900 mm.

The vang that the boat came with is completely insufficient for the boat. Its one of the old style laser vangs jerry rigged to work on the 470. The old laser vangs weren't even enough for the laser so why they put one of those on this boat is just amazingly stupid.

Actually the Laser needs more vang tension than the 470, as it's got a una rig which needs more leech tension, and there's nothing to pre-bend the mast, either. The reason why a Laser-style (=mast-cleated) vang doesn't work on a 470 is that you can't reach it from a hiking position. It's the only control system that I would lead to the side tanks even on a strictly recreational boat. The standard purchase is 16:1, but 12:1 is definitely enough.

The soft spot is the only soft spot and at most is about 8-10 inches in diameter. When I sit on it it will dip in a bit. I don't want to step or fall on it and end up putting my elbow through the hull.

If there is (and it looks like there is) an inspection port through which you can reach that spot, you can feel it from the other side. If it's a case of a loose or broken stringer, a little fibreglass should fix it.

how would you rig the boat as it is. What would you put on and move and replace....How exactly would you run and cleat things?

This could turn into a very long answer But if I were you, I'd prioritize things as follows:

1. To set up and tune the rig properly, you need a working jib halyard tensioning system, and a system for deck-level mast bend adjustment (a mast puller, or chocks).
2. To actually sail the boat, you need jib cleats.
3. To sail the boat in anything but light air, you need a working trapeze system.
4. To not turn the centreboard case into a water fountain, you need reasonably fresh centreboard flaps at the bottom edge of the case opening.
5. As mentioned, a working vang is pretty important.
6. To use the spinnaker, you need all the equipment required for that, including spinnaker bags.

Everything else is really fine-tuning... and we can talk about the details endlessly. It's going to be another long thread

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[US 1214]

spinnaker bags

Harkens, in the mail

 

[US 1214]

centreboard flaps

Ah yes “water fountain.” Frankly we didn’t check to see if there was a gasket first out. “Water fountain” doesn’t quite sum up the amount of water that entered the boat. I fixed this with some aluminum strips, stainless screws and some gasket material (I followed the older style flaps but there are probably more conventional methods). Problem solved in an afternoon and maybe $12.

 

[Pierson]

Sounds like a new gasket should be high on the list! I wasn't so sure at first since not much really comes in on a 420.
I took some better pictures of the boat. Of course this raised even more questions.
What does a mast puller do? I've never heard of them until I started researching 470s. Something to do with prebend

The the one with my hand in it is where the soft spot is.

There is a picture of a Dacron halyard bag thing. Is that what they used for a spinnaker bag?

There is a piece of rope with an 8 knot loop in the middle, and a bowline with a carabiner on one end. What does this do?

All the way forward in the boat there are some fairleads which are half riveted and half screwed. Why half rivet and half screw? What are they for?

It looks like on the mast there was once a magic box. These are hard to come by now but I might be able to get one.

On the mast partner there are 2 holes on either side of where the mast slides in. What was screwed in there.

What should go on the chainplates at the mast step.

On the top of the centerboard trunk there are three empty holes in a triangle it looks like. Were these for a compass?

On the transom there are holes for where some spinnaker blocks might have been. They are in the same place as


Every time I look at the boat I see a new empty hole!

 

[Pierson]

 

[US 1214]

If your talking about the RYC Club 420s, they do in fact have gaskets - just not great ones (probably due to the way they are beached after racing). A centerboard gasket is a must! (... or a red pool noodle stuffed in the centerboard slot for a little while ).

Is there a port near the soft spot on the hull? If you think that it’s soft enough to puncture through the hull, glassing isn’t a big deal.

 

[LaLi]

What does a mast puller do?

A mast puller is a system that adjusts mast bend by pulling the spar aft or forward at the deck level. On the 470, they almost always consist of a simple piece of wire and/or rope that is attached to the mast gate, wraps a half turn around the mast and cleats on the opposite side. (Current class rules actually allow for more elaborate setups, but I haven't seen anyone exploit this yet.)
An aft puller is important because it restricts how much the vang bends the lower mast. The vang doesn't really work upwind without it.
A forward puller can be used to induce pre-pend in light air. Can easily do without one.
Mast chocks - pieces of nylon or plywood (or any material really) wedged in front of the mast - can be used instead of an aft puller.

There is a picture of a Dacron halyard bag thing. Is that what they used for a spinnaker bag?

It's quite possible that the big cavity in front of the mast was used as spinnaker storage area, and and it was closed off with that piece of cloth.
This is an example of equipment that sort-of worked back in the day, but would be smarter to replace with a contemporary setup.

There is a piece of rope with an 8 knot loop in the middle, and a bowline with a carabiner on one end. What does this do?

No idea. More often than not, old boats have accumulated equipment for which there is no actual use. (Strange pieces of rope with strange knots are actually typical.)

All the way forward in the boat there are some fairleads which are half riveted and half screwed. Why half rivet and half screw? What are they for?

The rivets are probably original and the screws are a later replacement. The aforementioned spinnaker "bag" quite possibly attached here.
(By the way, I think riveting in fibreglass should be outlawed in general.)

It looks like on the mast there was once a magic box. These are hard to come by now but I might be able to get one.

You didn't read my post #3 Repeat, magic boxes are obsolete and should be replaced with "normal" block-and-tackle systems. A 12:1 is fairly standard, but even a 420-style 6:1 will work.

On the mast partner there are 2 holes on either side of where the mast slides in. What was screwed in there.

I first thought these were for spinnaker bag attachments, but I believe there's been a mast gate lock there. Which is both useless and now-illegal, so you can forget it.

What should go on the chainplates at the mast step.

Another good question. On your boat, the only thing that definitely comes from that direction is the spinnaker pole uphaul (maybe downhaul, too, if it's external). Could use them to lead anything, trapeze elastics for example.

On the top of the centerboard trunk there are three empty holes in a triangle it looks like. Were these for a compass?

Quite possibly. Would make sense as they're equidistant from one another, and that was a common compass location at the time. Later in the 1970s, people started using dual compasses, one at each forward end of the sidetanks. Nowadays everybody has a single compass on the mast between the boom and the deck.

I'll comment on the new batch of pictures later today again...

_

 

[Pierson]

Thanks again! Im getting a pretty good picture of what I need to start with.

 

[LaLi]

Picture 15 (and 50): The interesting thing here is really the location of the mast step. On another Vanguard of roughly similar vintage (the green boat in the "470 Layout" thread) the step was clearly farther forward - and the mast was still too far back in the "middle" position! Yours has obviously been moved... and you may very well need to move it back. But you have to measure it first.

16: So this is looking forward on the starboard side? What is the flotation made of, and how is it fastened? Does it extend to the area that may need repairing?

23: Ok, it's clear now that the five corners of this piece of cloth are supposed to be attached to the eyestraps on the edge of the big "hollow" in front of the mast, visible in many pictures.

24: My guess is that there's been a sideways jib lead system here. Whoever removed it was indeed right in that it's not needed!

25 (and 34 and 48): Nice classic wooden tiller, with Clamcleats for rudder up- and downhaul... but what is that V-cleat doing there near the extension swivel?

26: Hard to say why one rivet has been changed to a screw. The "empty" rivets are more interesting: is there something fastened to the laminate inside the forward tank?

27: Ok, so the rudder blade isn't original, as it doesn't fit in the head quite right. The leading edge should be parallel to (the extension of) the forward edge of the head. You may need to drill a new hole in the foil or the head, and do some measuring first. Some fibreglass work also is needed at the front corner of the blade.

31: This line of blocks didn't exist until the 1980s, so some previous owner did install at least two rivets! But the purpose is a mystery as this location makes no sense.

33 (and 41): Is there a similar block on the other side under the cap?

42: Ok, so the yellow line holds the sliding gooseneck in place, more or less. You would achieve a better result more permanently with small screws/bolts both above and below the fitting. The exact location has to be measured pretty accurately. I'll read the class rules carefully (and link to them) when the time is right.

52: Yes... it looks a little tired.

(Note: my home internet connection crashed last night and probably won't be back until next week. Having to rely on my phone will limit my posting somewhat.)

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[US 1214]

Pic 52, is that the original aluminum strips used for the slot gasket? It looks like your boats seen some salt water if the aluminum is that corroded, which may mean your boats seen the east coast.

 

[Pierson]

15: Would the measurements be in a tuning guide? 470 website? I plan on trying to get all of the measurements as close as I can to what the tuning guides say.

16: This is looking forward on the starboard side tank from the farthest aft service port. I'll have to go look again to see what the floatation is but it looked like fiberglass. It is probably foam glued in somehow. I think it does extend in to the soft spot.

25: I think Im going to revarnish the tiller to make it look a little better and hopefully seal some of the slight separations. I was thinking that the added cleat was for some sort of auto steering but I don think there is anything that it could hold... I think we have another mystery fitting.

26: I thought at first that maybe it came like that and it was used to easily put thinks on and off of the fairleads without disconnecting the from the boat but that wouldn't really make any sense because you could always tie or shackle something on and you wouldn't have to worry about a screw coming loose..... at least I know that the halyard/ spinnaker holder thing is supposed to go there.

27: If it ain't broke don't fix it but maybe if I take it apart and file some of the fiberglass out it would go parallel. If I have to drill a hole that can't be the end of the world. It seems like this wouldn't really impact the flow that much or would it? I don't know.

31: Those harken 29 blocks are all over this boat it seems like and most look brand new. There are no scratches or fading on them and the rivets are shiny. They seem a little to big in some places.
The sideways block might make sense if it was lower like where the spin ratchets usually are but its right up with the other one. Should I drill out the rivets and put it the other way? It's like this on both sides.

33: There isn't another block on the other side. There is a block on the floor mounted at an angle just behind the trunk on the starboard side. Not entirely sure what either of them do.

42: I put the yellow line there so the gooseneck wouldn't come off. There are a bunch of holes drilled in that area that you can't see because they are either out of frame and higher up on the mast or are covered up by the gooseneck. I saw similar holes in another forum on the same type of mast. I think it was the green one in 470 layout.

52: It is possible that it was in salt water. I wonder where the boat was originally from. Under the jib stay chainplates there is a piece of metal Im guessing to disperse the load of the shrouds. There is a picture and they look kinda corroded. I should take them off and clean them. Maybe I should take everything off and clean under thing and make sure all the spiderwebs and dirt and stuff is all gone.



What was the thinking behind a mast gate?
On each side of the mast partner there are 2 holes spaced maybe 2 inches apart. Were these just rivets? Picture 10
There are 4 holes in a rectangle just above the gooseneck. No idea what those were for.
When the jib halyard comes out of the mast is it wrapped back to the chainplates near the mast step and then up to a purchase under the centerboard trunk? it doesn't look like there is anywhere for it to go after it comes out of the mast.

There are some interesting pictures here. This boat looks very similar to mine. 470-vanguard-for-sale.31814

Dont worry about not being able to respond. You've already helped a ton!

 

[LaLi]

Would the measurements be in a tuning guide? 470 website? I plan on trying to get all of the measurements as close as I can to what the tuning guides say.

The legal stuff is in the class rules: https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/470CR150119-[24655].pdf and the measurement diagram: https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/470005080213BuildSpec-[14399].pdf

The tuning guides of different sailmakers aren't as helpful as they should be. The ones I've seen are outdated, incomplete, and/or written in bad English. I can help with the details once you get to the actual tuning. The one thing before that would be to see if the mast step is in the right place, and if not, reposition it.

27: If it ain't broke don't fix it but maybe if I take it apart and file some of the fiberglass out it would go parallel. If I have to drill a hole that can't be the end of the world. It seems like this wouldn't really impact the flow that much or would it

It's not about the flow but the minimizing of weather helm. I wouldn't file the fibreglass as that would weaken the blade. You could try filing the lower gudgeon on the rudder head (I think it's cast aluminium) instead.

31: Those harken 29 blocks are all over this boat it seems like and most look brand new. There are no scratches or fading on them and the rivets are shiny. They seem a little to big in some places.
The sideways block might make sense if it was lower like where the spin ratchets usually are but its right up with the other one. Should I drill out the rivets and put it the other way? It's like this on both sides.

I think we're talking about different blocks here. There's a Harken 22 mm ("Micro") block up the mast with absolutely no function I can think of. That has been added after the mid-1980s.
The 29 mm ("Bullet") ones were something brand new when that boat was built, but sounds like many (maybe all) have been added later. Don't remove any just yet.

42: I put the yellow line there so the gooseneck wouldn't come off. There are a bunch of holes drilled in that area that you can't see because they are either out of frame and higher up on the mast or are covered up by the gooseneck. I saw similar holes in another forum on the same type of mast. I think it was the green one in 470 layout.

Ok. There has obviously been some other type of gooseneck there which has left those holes. Don't worry about them.

What was the thinking behind a mast gate?

If you mean the closing of it with a latch (as likely was the case), it was probably a safety feature, but a redundant one as the forestay keeps the mast up anyway. (We'll talk about forestay length later; it's quite possible that you have to lengthen it.)

On each side of the mast partner there are 2 holes spaced maybe 2 inches apart. Were these just rivets?

As I said, there's been a(n unnecessary) sideways jib lead adjustment here most likely. As with any useless holes that go through to a tank, fill them if they leak and then forget about them.

When the jib halyard comes out of the mast is it wrapped back to the chainplates near the mast step and then up to a purchase under the centerboard trunk? it doesn't look like there is anywhere for it to go after it comes out of the mast.

The tensioning system may lie along the mast, the centreboard case, or both.

There are some interesting pictures here. This boat looks very similar to mine. 470-vanguard-for-sale.31814

Interesting indeed. That really does show several relevant details, such as the spinnaker "bag" set up, and the way the centreboard uphaul fairlead + cleats were intended to be used.

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[Pierson]

Hello all! I’ve come out of hibernation now that the snow has melted.
I hope everyone is doing well with this Coronavirus thing... School here is closed until further notice.
Disappointingly the spring sailing season has been postponed!

Two days ago I ordered new trapeze stuff including a Zhik t3 harness which I found for $34 on a discount website. For a $250 harness that’s a pretty good deal!

I’m still debating what spinnaker bags to get if any.
I also need to buy cleat risers for the tweaker cleats and the cleats that sit on the gunwale. Would you say I need to get the ones that Mackay sells or would the risers made by harken work? The harkens are much cheaper and are available on amazon.
Is the spinnaker pump system worth making? I could come up with the blocks and things eventually.
What do you recommend?

I’m also debating whether I need to get a mast puller all the way from New Zealand or if I should make some mast blocks. I would rather have the mast puller but I’m a little concerned about the cost of shipping. I’ve looked and there aren’t any companies I can find that sell mast pullers for a 470. Something that just dawned on me is there might be a mast puller meant for another boat I could use... Would that work?

Yesterday I faired the rudder and centerboard. I’ll attach pictures of after I took the centerboard out of the trunk, after a light scrub with some water, and then after I used some 600 grit sandpaper. I might use some 1500 later if I feel up to it. Both turned out very nicely.
May dad set to work on sealing the separation between the pieces of wood the tiller is made of. I’ll sand it and re-varnish it when that’s done.

Today I spent many hours sanding the deck and cleaning the last bits of dirt. It brought a fair amount of color and shine back. Also many scratches and scuffs are gone. Tomorrow I’ll finish up the deck and flip it over to do the bottom.

There is some damage on the bottom of the rudder and the centerboard.
The centerboard has some separation and cracking. I’ll find someway to fix that but if there’s some sort of trick to it please share. The rudder looks like someone drove down the highway with it down or something! I’m not sure how it could get that bad but based on the other goofy things previous owners have done I wouldn’t put it past them!
At the back of the boat there is some separation between the keelson and hull. What’s the best way to fix this? I was gonna squirt some 5200 or glue in there after getting all the dirt and grime out and making sure it’s dry, and then just clamp it down and let it solidify.

I still need to get a centerboard gasket but I have 90% of everything else.
I’ve got a pretty good idea of how I’m gonna run everything now (thanks to your help).

My plans are coming to fruition.

 

[LaLi]

I’m still debating what spinnaker bags to get if any.

If you use a spinnaker you have bags, period. What choices have you looked at?

I also need to buy cleat risers for the tweaker cleats and the cleats that sit on the gunwale. Would you say I need to get the ones that Mackay sells or would the risers made by harken work? The harkens are much cheaper and are available on amazon.

Doesn't really matter. The point is that they're high enough.

Is the spinnaker pump system worth making? I could come up with the blocks and things eventually.
What do you recommend?

A well-working pump-up system is great, but fairly complicated and not really necessary for recreational sailing.

I’m also debating whether I need to get a mast puller all the way from New Zealand or if I should make some mast blocks. I would rather have the mast puller but I’m a little concerned about the cost of shipping. I’ve looked and there aren’t any companies I can find that sell mast pullers for a 470. Something that just dawned on me is there might be a mast puller meant for another boat I could use... Would that work?

Simplest choice: a piece of low-stretch rope and a Clamcleat. (More detailed instructions on request.)

At the back of the boat there is some separation between the keelson and hull. What’s the best way to fix this? I was gonna squirt some 5200 or glue in there after getting all the dirt and grime out and making sure it’s dry, and then just clamp it down and let it solidify.

No idea what "5200" is, but sounds good

_

 

[Pierson]

Ive been looking at the harken ones but its hard to find them for sale. What do you use? How much would you spend?

These are the options Im looking at:

470 Spinnaker Bags [ET470SPIN] - $40.00USD : East Textiles

East Textiles 470 Spinnaker Bags [ET470SPIN] - 470 Spinnaker Bag Recommended Retail: $60 USD Material: Waterproof, Heavy Duty Blue PVC Fibre Reinforced (Non Breathable and Non UV Protected) Colour: Blue Accessories: Features: Attachment Reinforcements and Elastic System, High Volume Water...

www.easttextiles.com

Harken 420 Spinnaker Bag (Set)

Harken 420 Spinnaker Bag (Set), sailing gear, sailboat parts, sails and running rigging at Vela Sailing Supply. Technical support.

www.velasailingsupply.com

470 Spinnaker Bags | Funky Starfish

To fit a Mackay. These bags are made from a choice of blue or black dacron sailcloth and unlike kevlar bags they do not rot and break. There is a front pocket on each bag made from Kevlar sailcloth and side pockets for halyards. We sew webbing around the top to add reinforicing and to help...

www.funkystarfish.com

Page Not Found

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www.mackayboats.com

I just ordered a pump cleat, and some cleat risers among other things.

Please go on about your make-shift mast puller. I never even thought of using some dyneema and a cleat. Do you think a cam or clam cleat would work better? What do you use?

How long do people cut their spinnaker sheets?

 

[Pierson]

Also, what does the mast puller that pulls the mast forward do? Just the opposite of the mast puller or does it have another use?
Should I make one of those?

 

[LaLi]

The red/black "Funky Starfish" bags look pretty sharp

Note: all the bags seem to be made for a Mackay hull (or a 420!), so they won't be a perfect fit on an old Vanguard. Shouldn't affect their function though.

Please go on about your make-shift mast puller

A length of 5 or 6 mm stiff double-braid rope + a CL211Mk2 cleat. A Clamcleat instead of a cam cleat because you want it as close as possible to the inside edge of the gate. Attach the cleat also as far back as it fits. Drill a hole on the opposite side of the gate, lead the rope through and dead-end it with a figure 8. At the free end, tie a big bowline or add a T-style trapeze handle.
Did this for a club boat a few years back as a quick temporary solution, but it worked well enough that I left it like that.

How long do people cut their spinnaker sheets?

I don't know what exactly is considered as standard length today, but something like 19 metres should be enough. Technically, you want to be able to let the spinnaker flap completely when sheeting it from the trapeze, and still having some slack in the windward part of the sheet.

Also, what does the mast puller that pulls the mast forward do? Just the opposite of the mast puller or does it have another use?
Should I make one of those?

Read post #14 again Also, your Elvström mast with its "cutoff" sail track below the gooseneck is impossibly sharp-cornered at the deck level for a forward puller.

_

 

[Pierson]

Wow you have a good memory if you remembered post 14. Doesnt sound like I need a forward puller but I think I have all the stuff for an aft puller.
Do you think the mast gate is strong enough for this new system? As far as I know the fiberglass is pretty stiff still.

 

[LaLi]

Do you think the mast gate is strong enough for this new system?

I don't see why it wouldn't be. All that the aft puller does (from the hull's point of view) is to push the mast gate against the bulkhead. And it's worked in all boats for the last 40+ years.

_

 

[Pierson]

I went out and looked at it yesterday and it doesn’t seem like it is. I could pull up on the arms that stick out and hold the mast. I know a carpenter that can make some blocks for me so maybe I’ll try that for the time being. Are there any specific settings I should have(width of the blocks and the order those blocks should be in) or should I just have them all equal size? 1-1.5 cm or so wide?
I can’t find any pictures online.

 

[US 1214]

My mast gate was in a similar state. The fiberglass was delaminating away from the ply core. I’m guessing it was turtled in mud at some point in its life and the leverage at the mast gate (no chocks or puller) widened the gate.

I unbolted the gate from the hull and layed in new glass. My gate is probably twice as strong as new now. (Though, I’m not experienced enough to say that was necessary ).

If you take a look at “470 questions” LaLi talks about mast chocks. I made a set myself in an afternoon, very simple project. By the way, what are the dimensions of the opening for your mast gate?

 

[LaLi]

The fact that the mast gate "arms" flex when you pull them vertically doesn't necessarily mean that they couldn't deal with the horizontal load from the mast puller.

But if you don't need mast bend fine-tuning on the water, then chocks are fine. To specify a bit more, the optimal chock width should be identical to sideways mast thickness. The mast gate opening itself should really be only a millimetre or two wider,and you can attach shims and/or special tapes to make it narrower. (It may not even be exactly on the centreline, so you need to add more material to one side than the other. Ask me how I know )

Chock thickness can be anything really, but I think one or two should be very thin, 3 to 5 mm, while the rest can be 10 mm and up. You could have one very thick one, as the mast never comes very close to the forward edge of the opening. You will find out how many you actually need (it varies from boat to boat) when you start tuning for real.

You also need some system to keep the chocks from falling out when (not if!) the boat is upside down. Thin elastic line works.

_

 

[Pierson]

(It may not even be exactly on the centreline, so you need to add more material to one side than the other. Ask me how I know )
[/QUOTE]

How do you know? I’m amazed you know so much!

I keep meaning to take measurements of the gate but I keep getting side tracked.

I have made some major progress in the past few days. All the trap stuff is done, 90% of the fittings I needed to mount are on the boat including jib cleats, vang cleats... Cunningham cleats are next. I’ve refinished the tiller, fixed that separation between the hull and the keelson and more! Tomorrow I’ll finish up the fittings and start measuring how much line I need to buy.

I also will be getting a magic box from my friend this weekend. We pulled it off his interclub before Frostbiting nationals last season. I know it’s outdated... probably not the best system in the world, BUT ITS FREE and I’ll be filling the holes on the mast.

As for spinnaker bags, I sail with someone on a big boat crew in the summers (a Farr 395 and Melges 32) who makes bags and things out of old sail material so I’ll have to talk to her about making some.

My family has had a really old Oday Daysailer for a long while. I think it’s a 65. It also VERY heavy and is sailed very little. Because I have the 470 now it won’t be in the water this year. I thought the spinnaker pole for that boat might work but it’s about 6-7 inches to long. It’s also to long for the Daysailer according to class rules. Do you think that 6-7 inches over the 1900mm is too long?
My club has a big fleet of Ideal 18s and the spin pole for those is the same diameter as a 470 pole and only an inch longer. That’s one option. I also know some guys in a local Thistle fleet so I could check to see if anyone is selling anything there.

Here’s a few pictures of my recent work. Any concerns? Everything that needs to be through bolted is and I’ve used silicone sealant on every hole. In the picture where I drilled into the centerboard casing I’ll be putting one of those through deck blocks just like the other ones there. I also added that metal cleat and replaced the plastic one on the other side with a metal one. The side with the new holes will be for the rig tension.

Thanks for reading if you get this far! This is a pretty wordy post...

 

[LaLi]

How do you know?

I have the same problem with my Lightning. The opening is some 5 mm to starboard...

My family has had a really old Oday Daysailer for a long while. ... I thought the spinnaker pole for that boat might work but it’s about 6-7 inches to long. It’s also to long for the Daysailer according to class rules. Do you think that 6-7 inches over the 1900mm is too long?
My club has a big fleet of Ideal 18s and the spin pole for those is the same diameter as a 470 pole and only an inch longer. That’s one option. I also know some guys in a local Thistle fleet so I could check to see if anyone is selling anything there.

A pole that is too long is less of a problem than a too short one. The 206 - 208 cm range sounds like a Lightning pole (I've made dozens of them). A Thistle pole is a little short at 183. If I were you I'd take the Daysailer pole and cut it to 190 (or even 188 which is the DS max length). If that's not doable for some reason, go for an Ideal 18 pole.

Here’s a few pictures of my recent work. Any concerns?

Trapeze matters: the elastic is on the short side. There are numerous (other) ways of leading it so that there is more length to stretch. In any case, the final lead should be close to the inside of the flat part of the side tank, to minimize tangling with the shroud and spreaders.
Also, tie/hook the elastic to the horizontal part of that type of ring, not the ”rim”. You want it to pull inward for quick release.
The handles are, as expected, on the low side and you'd want to shorten the wires so that the crossbar of the handle is higher than the gooseneck when you pull the wire tight against the mast.

Spinnaker halyard: the cleat absolutely needs a top or aft fairlead. Position it so that the line runs as straight as possible between the mast and the turning block. You'll probably need to bolt the cleat through the aftmost part of the centreboard case.

Jib sheeting: I didn't realize that you'd keep the original system with the cleats on the windward side. You'll notice pretty soon that you want them on a bracket on the leeward side.

_

 

[Pierson]

I got an Ideal 18 pole but the jaws are too big for the pole ring on the mast! I have a 3/8 inch shackle that might work if I just tie I on there had pray it holds... Well see! The daysailer pole is just too heavy in my opinion. It was "custom" I think so I'll keep that for the daysailer. I was thinking of cutting it but I don't have a spinnaker for the daysailer right now so why bother.

Im considering shortening the trap wires and I would like to but maybe I'll do those later. If it will work for now I'm fine with them. Ive been trying to use as many of the old holes as possible so that's why I've run the trap elastic that way. So far its been stretching fine, its a little tight because the elastic is pretty new but I think it will loosen over time. Same for the Jib sheets plus the only brackets I could find were coming from New Zealand so ill do those at a later date. The Jib brackets were actually the number one thing on my list at first but its been getting moved down.
I had the Spinnaker cleat top fairlead already I just hadn't bolted the cleat down yet in that picture. I also got smaller blocks to use for the take up. I think they are 20mm now instead of the 29s.

Im almost done measuring what I need to buy for lines. I could probably sail it right now I just wouldn't have a Vang, Cunningham, mast blocks or working spin or spin bags.

How long do you cut your spinnaker halyard for the pump system? How long is the elastic for it? 40-50 feet for a halyard and 10-15 feet for elastic? or is that too long?

How long are jib sheets normally? I have sheets on the jib and they feet like and look like new but its way way way way too long. I could probably switch the main and jib sheets but I don't know how long the main sheet is. Id like to have continuous sheets so what would you say is the best way to attach them to the jib? I have a few ideas.

As for spin bags I had the marvelous idea to use old Lulu lemon bags, or at least I think its a marvelous idea at the moment. I haven't really tried it yet but they are probably too small.

Heres the measurements for the mast gate.

 

[LaLi]

How long do you cut your spinnaker halyard for the pump system? How long is the elastic for it?

2 x hoist height + distance from mast foot to transom + some extra for knots and takeup = 14.5 metres should be enough for the halyard. The elastic is a bit trickier... it has to be tested in action. It depends on its thickness and elasticity, and the purchase of the takeup system. Generally the longer the better. Something like 4 m attached at/near the transom and looped back via the mast step area should work.
Because the takeup system wants to pull the sail out of the bag, you need something between the bag and the shroud to counteract this. Popular solutions to this have included toothbrushes, of all things.

How long are jib sheets normally? I have sheets on the jib and they feet like and look like new but its way way way way too long. I could probably switch the main and jib sheets but I don't know how long the main sheet is. Id like to have continuous sheets so what would you say is the best way to attach them to the jib?

I don't have any numbers in mind, but it's again something you need to test in real life. The mainsheet length is obvious. The jib sheet should have a stopper knot so that the clew of the jib doesn't quite reach the luff (in order to not get the sail wrapped around the luff wire), while the free end at the same time extends to the gunwale. My favourite attachment is a thin connector line tied to the middle of the sheet with a sheet bend, something you can see in this picture (although I think the connector should be shorter).

About the pictures: there's a lot of air between the mast and the gate. You can fill those gaps with shims made of your material of preference (mine is nylon, or some similar plastic). You can then make the chocks the same width as the mast.
Have you measured the mast foot position yet? It's minimum 3055 mm from the transom to the aft edge of a vertically standing mast, including the sail track (although yours has been cut off right there, so you have to do a little subtracting). Only after checking that can we go on to find the right forestay length, and thickness and number of chocks.

_

 

[Pierson]

I just ordered 50 feet of single braid for the hallyard and some other lines for Vang and Cunningham.

Ive used the toothbrush method before so ill have to put that in once I get everything in shipping.

I measured the mast step a while ago but I guess I forgot to put the measurements in here. From the Aft measurement point to the back of the mast is 10 feet almost exactly. 10.5 maybe.

 

[Pierson]

Heres some more pictures to keep you busy during quarantine haha!

 

[Pierson]