Mark II Standard Sail

old laser guy

New Member
I have the practice sail and class legal sails, you do not have use the same amount of vang. Sailing upwind I just snug it up and that seems to work. I almost never get the sail block to block, mostly 6" apart.
 

torrid

Just sailing
Question for those of you who have sailed with the new sail. Did you have to make any alterations to your outhaul and cunningham rigging? Or did everything fit about the same as the old sail? My concern is the control lines may not have the same range of motion and could bottom out with adjusting the rigging.
 

old laser guy

New Member
Everything fits the same. I made black marks on the cunningham and outhaul with the class sail and put up the practice sail and the marks were less than 1 inch different.
 

Andy B

Member
I checked as well and it is about an inch on the boom. The foot of the MKII is only a few mm longer than the MKI and measures with 25mm to spare. The clew eye is set closer to the edge of the training sail giving a combined difference in outhaul hook placement of about 25mm from the MKI standard and 35mm from the MK6 Radial. 35mm is an extra 150mm draft in the sail. On my 8:1 outhaul the difference was very noticeable.

It’s not a problem I just had to adjust the control lines and can’t wait to buy the class legal sail.
 
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monkey_feet

Arlington, TX
Only thing that totally sucks with the new sail is the fact that I got to buy $65 in battens since the old ones won't fit!
 

jecoolidge2

New Member
I would like to hear what people are thinking about the new Mark II sail in the 3-8mph range. I spent about two hours with 6 other boats in flat water. I was the only boat with the new sail.

My observations during this time, include the thought that this new sail is a completely different animal! I was constantly experimenting, changing vang, cunningham, outhaul, all while trimming constantly. I thought I used more vang than with the old sail, to simply match the mast to the luff curve built into the new sail and was thus NEVER close to two- blocking. Two-blocking made the sail way too flat. I also had to use a longer cunningham, as the old minimum setting was just too tight. A tiny amount of cunningham seemed to cause a terrible wrinkle in the luff, which I would not think to be fast. I did not ease the vang from my old base setting, but suspect that to be a point of experimentation.

I think by comparison in these conditions this cut is slow! I had a difficult time matching other boats for both speed and height! During starts the regular cut would just shoot off the line with faster acceleration, and seemed to point more easily. As new pressure would fill, the older cut would slowly walk away. It is my thought that the tacking angles in these conditions, differ between the cuts as well. I think the new sail has definite gears one must shift through to achieve its full potential, it just seems the older cut moves through those more easily.

I am very interested to hear what others have experienced in the light stuff, as I am a lake sailor and will probably sail in that most. Initially I think that this sail was not built for the light end of the range, but I would like to hear what others think. What are you doing for set up?
Thanks,
John
 

torrid

Just sailing
Question for those who have applied sail numbers to the mkII. Do you still apply them with the same offset to the middle batten as with the old design?
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Thanks for this. But remember that these are only instructions. The rules still have to be amended for the national letters, as the current rule measures them from the bottom horizontal seam. It's probably safe to assume, though, that the measurement will be 400 mm from the bottom batten pocket (as in the instructions) +/- 12 mm (the tolerance for all other character placement).
 

torrid

Just sailing
Think of it like this. The sail is basically an airfoil turned up on end. You want to have the curve at the forward portion of the airfoil. The skinny/flexible end needs to go in first to help maintain that curve.
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
Think of it like this. The sail is basically an airfoil turned up on end. You want to have the curve at the forward portion of the airfoil. The skinny/flexible end needs to go in first to help maintain that curve.
Thanks for the explanation.
 
Think of it like this. The sail is basically an airfoil turned up on end. You want to have the curve at the forward portion of the airfoil. The skinny/flexible end needs to go in first to help maintain that curve.
Yes, it helps by allowing a soft transition into the stiffer leech that the battens give. This softness also reduces wear that can result in softer sailcloth and stretch at the "bow end" of the battens.
 

opT

New Member
I didn't use the new sail at Sail Sydney but I used it on one training day and heard plenty from sailors who used it. I had some personal thoughts but mostly we agreed on the strength and weaknesses of the sail.

In 6-12 knots I didn't try the sail, but others seemed to have great height. It also looked very good with only a few wrinkles. In 12-16 knots it seemed to provide consistent power which made a block to block vmg mode very comfortable. In 16 knots+ I thought the high mode was quick, but found it uncomfortable footing. There seemed to be too much weather helm which I usually quell with some firm cunningham. On the new sail, in my opinion the cunningham has too many reinforced patches along the luff and mast sleeve. It is very hard to 'crank the cunnignham' in the sense that the grommet moves close to the boom. It seems that since there is no stretch now in the lower luff, there is a large amount of tension spread out locally in the luff. This creates a nice looking flat entry of the sail (no more 'bubbling' at the luff from the grommet being pulled down 6 inches) but since the grommet doesn't move very far the extra tension doesn't effect the rest of the sail very much. The result being the cunningham has less effect to flatten the rest of the sail and twist open the top. This means the sail looked quite ugly in 16+ knots with equal or more creases than the old sail and it was a beast to handle in the big breeze. Outhaul needs to be tight and lots of vang needed. Unfortunately the extra vang adds to the diagonal wrinkles which the cunningham fails to remove. I found with the old sail using cunningham and the right amount of vang I could easily release the boat and have it 'feel free' when trying to go low for speed in big breeze.

It must be noted the other sailors and I were all using stuff Australian spars. We discussed and it may be beneficial to use softer sections with the new cut sail. More testing needs to be done to see how manage the sail in breeze and with different mast combinations.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
It must be noted the other sailors and I were all using stuff Australian spars. We discussed and it may be beneficial to use softer sections with the new cut sail. More testing needs to be done to see how manage the sail in breeze and with different mast combinations.
Stuff(sic) Australian spars?
Softer sections?
Different mast combinations?

Where can I buy those?
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
Stuff(sic) Australian spars?
Softer sections?
Different mast combinations?

Where can I buy those?
Move to Australia. All these isues with different regions having equipment in different parts of the tolerance is a non issue if people don't source equipment from outside their region. The tolerances are there to permit 2+ manufacturers to build within reasonable manufacturing constraints and not for competitors to assemble the perfect boat.
 

opT

New Member
Move to Australia. All these isues with different regions having equipment in different parts of the tolerance is a non issue if people don't source equipment from outside their region. The tolerances are there to permit 2+ manufacturers to build within reasonable manufacturing constraints and not for competitors to assemble the perfect boat.
Yes Alan but people do source the best mast combinations and one is forced to at least match at the HIGHEST level of sailing, not an issue for your club or national level sailing.

My main point is I'd like to try the MKII sail with the 'softer' north american/euro sections and/or the incoming carbon top section to see if the power management in the up pressure can be relieved somewhat by more forgiving mast bend.

I'm very interested to hear more about others who have used the sail in the 15+ knot wind range. Additionally, I used what I believe was the Pryde MKII sail. What I understand is that there is a Hyde and North version as well. Yes, they should all be the equal but as we saw with the old cut that is not always the case.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
Yes Alan but people do source the best mast combinations and one is forced to at least match at the HIGHEST level of sailing, not an issue for your club or national level sailing.
All this is relatively new and to the detriment of the class.

The reality is, that you can't beat someone using identical equipment, you're not going to beat them at the worlds or Olympics where the equipment is supplied. If you want to do well at these higher level events, you need to work on your sailing ability and not trying to make the perfect boat.
 
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Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
I would like to hear what people are thinking about the new Mark II sail in the 3-8mph range. I spent about two hours with 6 other boats in flat water. I was the only boat with the new sail.

My observations during this time, include the thought that this new sail is a completely different animal! I was constantly experimenting, changing vang, cunningham, outhaul, all while trimming constantly. I thought I used more vang than with the old sail, to simply match the mast to the luff curve built into the new sail and was thus NEVER close to two- blocking. Two-blocking made the sail way too flat. I also had to use a longer cunningham, as the old minimum setting was just too tight. A tiny amount of cunningham seemed to cause a terrible wrinkle in the luff, which I would not think to be fast. I did not ease the vang from my old base setting, but suspect that to be a point of experimentation.

I think by comparison in these conditions this cut is slow! I had a difficult time matching other boats for both speed and height! During starts the regular cut would just shoot off the line with faster acceleration, and seemed to point more easily. As new pressure would fill, the older cut would slowly walk away. It is my thought that the tacking angles in these conditions, differ between the cuts as well. I think the new sail has definite gears one must shift through to achieve its full potential, it just seems the older cut moves through those more easily.

I am very interested to hear what others have experienced in the light stuff, as I am a lake sailor and will probably sail in that most. Initially I think that this sail was not built for the light end of the range, but I would like to hear what others think. What are you doing for set up?
Thanks,
John
I sailed this past Sunday in light winds (5-10 mph); some hiking required (for a light-weight). Upwind, I seemed to move along with the leaders (with older sails), but downwind my sail looked UGLY because of the luff pocket. My vang was on a bit, but as I wrote, the sail shape looked sub-optimal. Tightening the C'ham didn't do much, it seemed.
Recommendations, please.
More vang?
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
... downwind my sail looked UGLY because of the luff pocket. My vang was on a bit, but as I wrote, the sail shape looked sub-optimal.
"Ugly" and "sub-optimal" aren't very specific terms... how did the shape differ from what you wanted? Was the sail too flat/full, maximum camber too far forward/aft, too much/not enough twist? Did any of the control lines run out of range of adjustment?

If "because of the luff pocket" means that you had a vertical crease right behind the mast, then you have to pre-bend more, and downwind the vang is the the only thing that you can do it with. And of course the cunningham should be completely loose.

(A bit envious of all of you who can test the Mark II... the temperature here was almost minus 30 degrees yesterday... next week it should be safe to walk on my home waters.)
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
Thanks; Yes, the sail had a vertical crease/pocket. I will try to pull on more vang.

And yes, many fleets in the Northeast of the USA are frostbiting. My area has had relatively mild weather, but the water temp is close to freezing. Dry suits are a must.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Just noticed there is a diagram of the Mark II in the latest edition of the class rules which has been effective from January 1. Small but interesting differences in the measurements with the Mark I:
  • the luff is 10 mm and the leech 15 mm shorter
  • the foot is 10 mm longer, but the 1/2 foot height is 40 mm shorter, so the foot is straighter
  • all the leech-to-luff measurements are 15 to 40 mm longer.
So it's a slightly shorter but wider sail, with more roach and/or luff curve. Of course, what (if anything) this translates to on the water, remains to be seen.
 

Old Dude

Member
I sailed this past Sunday in light winds (5-10 mph); some hiking required (for a light-weight). Upwind, I seemed to move along with the leaders (with older sails), but downwind my sail looked UGLY because of the luff pocket. My vang was on a bit, but as I wrote, the sail shape looked sub-optimal. Tightening the C'ham didn't do much, it seemed.
Recommendations, please.
More vang?
Encountered exact same thing in similar conditions while frostbiting this weekend. Using my vang off wind pre-set was wayyyyy to much vang off. New sail seems to need more vang down wind to avoid the vertical fold or pocket you described.
 

rippa

Member
We just had our Western Australian State Championship in very light winds (up to 10 knots) and the Mark II performed very well. Most master sailors, except me, had the new sail and I was definitely underpowered going upwind. Downwind I did not notice much difference. The problems with the Mark II seems to be the 15+ range. Any suggestions and pictures of the sail upwind in breezy conditions?
 

opT

New Member
We just had our Western Australian State Championship in very light winds (up to 10 knots) and the Mark II performed very well. Most master sailors, except me, had the new sail and I was definitely underpowered going upwind. Downwind I did not notice much difference. The problems with the Mark II seems to be the 15+ range. Any suggestions and pictures of the sail upwind in breezy conditions?
I've only sailed about 5 minutes with the new sail in Sydney, but heard a lot of feedback from others at Sail Sydney on the breezy day indicating there was a lot of helm and a lot of power in the rig. As I mentioned earlier in the thread it would be interesting to see if softer spars would help out in the 15+ range and not detract too much from the lighter air. Given the same spar set just have to vang and outhaul hard (cunno doesn't have the same effect) but the sail doesn't look pretty. Word is it's time to start eating and get big!
 
I would be interested to have your opinions on the value of the new Mark II for beginners. Is it worth to invest in a new Mk II to start learning with that sail as opposed to
the Mk I? I could also imagine the increased ease with which it can be depowered makes it attractive for a beginner.
Best,
Duncan
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
I would be interested to have your opinions on the value of the new Mark II for beginners. Is it worth to invest in a new Mk II to start learning with that sail as opposed to
the Mk I? I could also imagine the increased ease with which it can be depowered makes it attractive for a beginner.
Best,
Duncan
Duncan, it's my opinion that you are overthinking the issue. Just go learn to sail the boat with whatever sail you can find. More in general, the Mk II sail is supposed to be identical to the older version. Yes, there are conditions where one sail may outperform the other, but that will be apparent only to hard core Laseristas. Moreover, the idea that the Mk II sail is more tuneable, is debatable. I have read otherwise.

Good luck with the learning process; the Laser remains a challenging boat.
 

torrid

Just sailing
I would be interested to have your opinions on the value of the new Mark II for beginners. Is it worth to invest in a new Mk II to start learning with that sail as opposed to
the Mk I? I could also imagine the increased ease with which it can be depowered makes it attractive for a beginner.
Best,
Duncan
Use whatever sail is available. If you are needing to purchase sails for training outside of organized races, get a knock-off. They will be learning basic boat handling and sail trim. They will need to know basics like when to let off the vang, but micro-adjustments to the control lines will be above them at this point.

Going forward, I would think there are no plans to sell the Mk I along with the Mk II once the Rio Olympics are over. In a year or two the "which is better" question will be moot, and the way forward will be the Mk II. Maybe a slight hiccup to the strict one-design concept of the class, but a necessary road to take.
 
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