Laser Sail

Gil

Gil

Bateau Blanc
I just bought a new sail to race: AU$ 583; I can get an intensity for US$119. Laser sails are from the 70's, basic dacron, very simple to make and no innovation for the last 4o last years or so. My point: This is pitiful value.

Why can't we have dimension and material specification standard and open the market to new sail makers? Should the intensity sails be recognized for competition?
 
This question has been done to death Gil.

You may or may not be aware but there is a new sail design waiting to be released but because of the legal wrangling between LP and BKI this is currently on hold and is likely to remain that way for the foreseeable future.
 
I reckon its pretty reasonable value compared to the market.

$1510 for a new mail for a 16ft Hartley, compared to $583 for a 14ft Laser - Do that math...
 
Martz said:
I reckon its pretty reasonable value compared to the market.

$1510 for a new mail for a 16ft Hartley, compared to $583 for a 14ft Laser - Do that math...
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I guess that depends how one does the math.

If I create a production process for the Hartley sail how many sails can I expect to split my initial and "running in" costs on? And how many others are still standing in a line to offer an equal product for a quarter of the price. That's just as valid math.

The problem is that the value of the Laser class, the capacity to create large fleets, and for each sailor affordeable and interesting racing, has ended up in a kind of hostagesituation. At least it can look like that from where I stand.
 
Martz said:
I reckon its pretty reasonable value compared to the market.

$1510 for a new mail for a 16ft Hartley, compared to $583 for a 14ft Laser - Do that math...
Click to expand...

How big is the sail for a 16ft hartley? What is it made of? How much development has gone in to it? (i.e are there other factors that make it expensive).

The current Laser rag has a materials and base assembly cost of $35-$40 (in my maths is correct). All the rest s mark up and royalty (which certain people are not paying anyway but that is another matter).

Here in the UK if you do a small quantity bulk buy the LP will match the price of most replicas, this represents a discount of slightly over 50% on the normal price.

Now tell me if you still think this is good value?
 
Just for the fun of it, figure out a bottom-line cost per year to campaign AND recreationally sail a laser. Now compare that with any other dinghy under 21 feet long. I think the laser will be cheaper by far. Any calculations out there???
 
I was just trying to show the $$ relative to another boat I have owned.

Geez guys, try not to be so disgruntled with your chosen sailing class. If you want a cheap sport - try jogging. And I don't recall any class rules saying it has to be affordable. Sailing generally isn't a cheap activity.

As for $35-$40 for the material cost - for sure, don't disagree. But unfortunately youre not buying a no-name sail. Its a Laser sail.

How much do you think the materials cost for a $60 polo shirt with a nice logo...
 
Laser is certainly a great class; this is my 3rd Laser over the last 36 years- first competitive . I have raced J24, and even Laser 28-against Bruce Kirby (great sailor by the way) . I have tried/raced 420, Hobbies,Taipan, Viper. This year I wanted a new competitive boat. I was very tempted by a Taipan or Viper- pure adrenaline and technology- much better value- boat speaking. However, I got another Laser because it is the best fleet: a world level sailor can finish 1 km ahead of me on a race- on pure talent. The strength of the class is the high competitivity of the class, the opportunity to race anywhere, and the great balance/fun of the boat in pretty much all conditions. Laser sailors did great at the America Cup indeed.

However, I feel the class has abandoned control to mercantile interests and lost all leadership. Yes, I can pay $583 for a sail- and I did to race at the Masters National ( Fantastic fleet!). However, we have accepted to become hostages of organizations, egos and financial interests. There is over a year that we are waiting the "resolution" of the legal dispute to move on with maybe a new mast/sail; we let the price of the sail reach $1000, (before competition brought it back down)- we accept pretty much anything, any price increase without even questioning. This year, our club/fleet has decided to accept the intensity sails and "fake"parts as long as it does not give a technical advantage ( carbon top mast)- I hope the same will be accepted at the state championship ( but not for the nationals). Why should I pay $583 for a commodity sail made in Bangladesh with poor standard control? Why should I pay $300 for a top mast section that bends and has weak dimension control? Who is questioning and asking the Class/manufacturer for accountability? I do!
 
Gil, please provide the evidence of weak dimensional control of the spar sections. I think you'll find that all the spars sections are fully within tolerance. The problem is that the tolerances permit sections which aren't capable of the what they were intended, which is a very different issue.
 
The problem is that the tolerances permit sections which aren't capable of the what they were intended, which is a very different issue.

So, these variations or ' tolerances' in the spars...does that mean that Laser supplied spars come in variable wall widths etc ?
 
Are the tolerances to wide or are they aimed on to weak pofiles. Would a strongar alu mast sail as good as these? Another question has anything changed over the years in the material the production in the way the boat i sailed that causes more spares to fail or is it as it always has been?
 
Voodoo 158546 said:
So, these variations or ' tolerances' in the spars...does that mean that Laser supplied spars come in variable wall widths etc ?
Click to expand...
Yes, die wear is natural. The more extrude thru a die, the more it wears. A new die will result in a thinner section than an older one. Similarly, alloys have a range of composition, for example I suspect we're using is 6061 where the compositon is

Silicon minimum 0.4%, maximum 0.8% by weight
  • Iron no minimum, maximum 0.7%
  • Copper minimum 0.15%, maximum 0.40%
  • Zinc no minimum, maximum 0.25%
  • Other elements no more than 0.05% each, 0.15% total

but is considered an aluminium silicon/magnesium alloy. .
 
inlandfreddy said:
Are the tolerances to wide or are they aimed on to weak pofiles. Would a strongar alu mast sail as good as these? Another question has anything changed over the years in the material the production in the way the boat i sailed that causes more spares to fail or is it as it always has been?
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It's always been. They aren't aimed at anything other than being suitable for the job 40 years ago when the boat was designed to be a "fun boat", I doubt the designers ever thought the boats would be sailed like they are these days.
 
AlanD said:
It's always been. They aren't aimed at anything other than being suitable for the job 40 years ago when the boat was designed to be a "fun boat", I doubt the designers ever thought the boats would be sailed like they are these days.
Click to expand...
Yes, after all, the original name was TGIF.

More seriously though, how hard would it be to test a representative/statistically valid sample of the masts being manufactured?
Pick a mast every so often according to statistics;
clamp it down on one end;
hang a weight on the other end;
measure the deflection

Too much or too little, change the die or the batch of aluminum being used.

Or is this something already in the magical builders manual?
 
Has anyone actually put this to the manufacturer ?
Who is the manufacturer ? Anyone know ?
 
Wavedancer said:
Yes, after all, the original name was TGIF.

More seriously though, how hard would it be to test a representative/statistically valid sample of the masts being manufactured?
Pick a mast every so often according to statistics;
clamp it down on one end;
hang a weight on the other end;
measure the deflection

Too much or too little, change the die or the batch of aluminum being used.

Or is this something already in the magical builders manual?
Click to expand...
Effectively it already happens. Stiffness is related to the Young's modulus (constant across almost all aluminium alloys, diameter which is effectively constant for laser spars and wall thickness which does change. All you need to do is measurer the wall thickness and not worry about deflection. The trouble with laser spars is the bottom end of the wall thickness is too thin. Just pulling figures out of the air but say the current tolerance for thickness as specified in the builders manual is 1.8-2.5mm for a top section, maybe the specification should be 2.1-2.5mm. Dies would need to be replaced twice as frequently, but the spars would be much stiffer.
The other thing you need to look at is increasing the yield strength, again the comes down to young's modulas, cross sectional area and the material / heat treatment. Going to a material which can achieve better yield strength may reduce spars getting bent so easily, but it comes with an increase in price, 6061/6063 is an inexpensive, easy to extrude alloy which can be age hardened to achieve the properties currently specified in the builders class manual. The mechanical properties would be checked with every batch of spars leaving the extruders.
 
Hi Gil,
Gil said:
I just bought a new sail to race: AU$ 583; I can get an intensity for US$119. Laser sails are from the 70's, basic dacron, very simple to make and no innovation for the last 4o last years or so. My point: This is pitiful value.

Why can't we have dimension and material specification standard and open the market to new sail makers? Should the intensity sails be recognized for competition?
Click to expand...

Hi Gil,I'm with you.
I've had a few intensity sails and they were great.They do an exceptional job for the money.

Some points I would like to put to the "nay" sayers:
- We have the North & Hyde sails "ONE" design?
I've heard about significant variations in the sizes/cut of some of the original sails too.
The feedback is that the Norths cloth isn't so good either (at least they are not the preferred sail over here).
- Yet I read an article where the sailcloth for these sails was supposed to be improved (soon)?
Why aren''t they using the best dacron in the first place?Dacron isn't all that expensive.
By inference,why are they STILL using an inferior material.
If the spec is only for 3.8oz does that mean we have to get the lower quality 3.8oz?
We've already gone from 3.2oz to 3.8oz.What's another 0.2oz if the result is a better product?
(what's that,5% increase in weight?)

- We pay a premium for these sails and at US$119 Intensity is still making a bit of a modest margin.
So at AU$583?Aren't we being taken a bit for granted?

- Does anyone really think that at $119 that Intensity can afford to undertake expensive
R&D to recut these sails to make them vastly superior to the originals for an unfair advantage?
I doubt Intensity's suppliers have the resources that Norths/Hyde would have
yet they appear to have a very competitive product.
I believe the Intensity measure to class spec.s as well.So what's the problem?
And if they are superior,EVERYONE can afford them,not just the guys who have a loose
AU$583 at the back of the couch.
If I sailed well against a large fleet,I'd like to think it was because I was good rather than
I could afford the expensive sail that the others couldn't.

- Another thing I think people really forget.
Remember the copy Rolex watch?
You don't expect the cheaper copy to be better than the original,at (absolute) best the "same"
If the cheaper copy is better than the original then maybe we're being taken for a ride.

IMHO the cheaper you make the parts,the better it is to upgrade older boats and the easier it is to get
larger numbers of people to sail.Everyone "wins".
With a US$119 sail how many older boats can be made more competitive without selling a kidney?

I'm disappointed with the builders and the association for foisting unnecessarily high costs on us with
"one design" used as an excuse.
3.2oz / 3.8oz sails ; two different suppliers of sails ; Wooden / white / brown / white fibreglass foils ;
old & new vangs ; construction of hulls supposed to have been improved around year 2000 (are all hulls the same?)
; variations in mast diameters & weights ; wooden & plastic rails ; clam & cam cleats.
Sure,strictly one design

I'm a fan.
Great job Mr Intensity!
 
Chris,

You have to accept that on the 'class legal' parts there will always be a premium to pay as these will have had the class royalty paid.

Don't get me wrong the official class is a rip off still but you can get the prices down with some dealers by doing a bulk buy (as little as 4 sails, so you could get together with some friends, this is true in the UK not sure about in the US).

As for the new sail, it is ready to be lauched and has been for almost 18 months to 2 years now. The problem is that the row between LP and Bruce Kirby has effectively put the mockers on it as all parties have to agree a change in equipment.

At class level you will be very unlikely to notice a difference in the hull unless the one you have is very bad. I have jumped into one of our beaten up club Lasers with old style controls and a reasonable sail on it and still finished where I would have finished in my own boat.

The new controls do not make the potential speed of the boat any faster, they just make it easier to sail for us mere mortals. I believe the Robert Scheidt used the old style vang until quite recently and we all know how good he is.

The intensity sail is good though, if you can then use it for club racing or cruising and save your official sail for regattas.
 
jeffers said:
Chris,

You have to accept that on the 'class legal' parts there will always be a premium to pay as these will have had the class royalty paid.

Don't get me wrong the official class is a rip off still but you can get the prices down with some dealers by doing a bulk buy (as little as 4 sails, so you could get together with some friends, this is true in the UK not sure about in the US).

As for the new sail, it is ready to be lauched and has been for almost 18 months to 2 years now. The problem is that the row between LP and Bruce Kirby has effectively put the mockers on it as all parties have to agree a change in equipment.

At class level you will be very unlikely to notice a difference in the hull unless the one you have is very bad. I have jumped into one of our beaten up club Lasers with old style controls and a reasonable sail on it and still finished where I would have finished in my own boat.

The new controls do not make the potential speed of the boat any faster, they just make it easier to sail for us mere mortals. I believe the Robert Scheidt used the old style vang until quite recently and we all know how good he is.

The intensity sail is good though, if you can then use it for club racing or cruising and save your official sail for regattas.
Click to expand...

Hi Jeffers,

thanks for your input.
BUT I have heard that the class royalty on sails is US$12?
Ok to be fair on AU$583 there is our GST so their retail is $530 + GST (10%).
Still a yawning chasm with the prices.And for the quality?
(At one stage (a while back) I recall we were paying around AU$1000 for the sails until guys got wise and
imported sails from the US for around US$500.I wonder if that influenced the prices over here?)

Over here I have never heard of bulk deals being offered.If someone has experienced this would love to hear about it.

Another point to consider.
If the new sails are better and hold their shape for longer,doesn't that mean that the current sails basically
become obsolete?The current sail will wear out faster so a guy using the whiz bang new sail for a year still
has an "advantage" over the current sail used for a year?
Split infinitives I guess but again it all comes back to how you define strict "one design".
Still no reason for the association to essentially vilify (see ILCA "Cheats" section) those who choose to sail or race "economically" with absolutely no real advantage other than a few extra dollars left in your pocket

I can't see why ILCA and it's offspring can't allow other "non-class legal"parts to be used on these
boats when there is obviously less of an / no advantage.
One of Intensity's double cleats is much cheaper than the "class legal" part and offers less of an advantage
than the changing of the sail design.
How much advantage can there be in a different clam cleat?
Sounds like that ruse about the EU regulating the shape of bananas

I get that if you want to sail a legal laser you accept the class rules but why doesn't ILCA take
the interests of it's members more into account?
There is no reason that parts can't be more affordable and this would strengthen the class by making it
more affordable to have an updated/more competitive boat (and hopefully more bums on deck).
It was supposed to be about enjoying the sailing.

Oh,and BTW,I was looking at the website and noted a Class legal c/board here for AU$670.
The foils in the US are around $400 new?
What about in the UK?

Burn the witches!
Cheers
 
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