Personaly I like how everyone has the use the same kind of sails (assuming that all "lasermade" sails are the same). I like that there is at least one competetive class were you don't have to think about sails.not sure what the status is, but whenever it does happen, it would be a perfect time to (like almost every other racing class) have a free market sail building policy. i dont see how it could possibly hurt sailors to have a competitive free market system, where anyone can build your sail as long as it measures in
Personaly I like how everyone has the use the same kind of sails (assuming that all "lasermade" sails are the same). I like that there is at least one competetive class were you don't have to think about sails.
Personaly I like how everyone has the use the same kind of sails (assuming that all "lasermade" sails are the same). I like that there is at least one competetive class were you don't have to think about sails.
it would be nice if that were true, but its not, they arent all the same.. ie- north vs hyde vs NZ sails, etc
From my experience, setting up a Hyde Sail is very different to setting up a North Sail in the standard rigs, the different cloths used do behave differently, but it's been years since I've used a North Sail so I can't tell you how. But Hyde sail to Hyde sail or North to North, there is a little variation in your setting, but it not exactly rocket science to make the appropriate adjustments and you need to make adjustments anyway as the sail ages.
it would be nice if that were true, but its not, they arent all the same.. ie- north vs hyde vs NZ sails, etc
The regional monopolies on sail making for the Laser grossly inflate the price. This is borne out by the fact that Intensity Sails makes some thing nearly the same for less than half the price. The consensus here seems to be that the class sanctioned sails aren't very consistent anyway.
Here's what I propose:
Food for thought: you can buy a new Yamaha dirt bike for the same price as a new Laser. Shouldn't we expect a comparable consistency in quality?
- Allow competition between sailmakers on price by granting more licenses to produce.
- Specify tolerances on sail dimensions, stiffness (measured along leech, luff and foot) and weight. This means that sailmakers will need to test and sometimes reject batches of sail cloth (starting to sound like an actual quality control system) to avoid wasting labor on sub-par materials.
- Require sailmakers to adopt class-specified quality control procedures (admittedly a foreign concept to Laser hull manufacturers) subject to audit by the class, so that sails don't need to be measured at events any more rigorously than they are now.
Oh yes, I forgot to mention the cloth issue. There is quite a bit of variation in the behaviour of the cloth between diffrent batches. The resin threatment that dacron cloth go through is quite hard to control and thus diffrent batches of the "same" cloth can have big variations in stiffness and elasticity. So batches of sails can differ a lot in behaviour. I'd still be supprised if the "avarage" sail still isn't the same from all makers.
If there is actualy a major cloth quality diffrence they should all be forced to use the same cloth manufactorer (which they probably already do, rebranded as their own of course)
The regional monopolies on sail making for the Laser grossly inflate the price. This is borne out by the fact that Intensity Sails makes some thing nearly the same for less than half the price. The consensus here seems to be that the class sanctioned sails aren't very consistent anyway.
Ie:
Food for thought: you can buy a new Yamaha dirt bike for the same price as a new Laser. Shouldn't we expect a comparable consistency in quality?
- Allow competition between sailmakers on price by granting more licenses to produce.
- Specify tolerances on sail dimensions, stiffness (measured along leech, luff and foot) and weight. This means that sailmakers will need to test and sometimes reject batches of sail cloth (starting to sound like an actual quality control system) to avoid wasting labor on sub-par materials.
- Require sailmakers to adopt class-specified quality control procedures (admittedly a foreign concept to Laser hull manufacturers) subject to audit by the class, so that sails don't need to be measured at events any more rigorously than they are now.
Intensity sails are in no way similar to a laser sail as far as quality and performance, Aussie sail makers are now copying the intensity sail and they really perform to a much higher standard than laser sails, where do we stop this ? fully battened hi tech ?.
we need a strong showing for a one design laser class, and before this gets too far out of hand.
ps lasers are one of the most affordable sailing yachts in the world today
Very true, I've seen a mylar copy sail and I belive there is a fully battened mylar copy sail out there.
The sailmakers do not set the price to the end user - there are many threads here where this is debunked, but very quickly, both North and Hyde are building the Laser sails in Asia, (different countries, but similar labor costs) and Intensity is purchasing from a major supplier in Asia. Costs for the sails are all similar, except for the royalty button (under $20) and given the purchasing power of the builder you can bet they are pushing Hyde and North for the lowest possible cost.
As to the sail itself and it's short life span, the sailmakers are building the sails to the specs given to them by the builder (and the "class" to a degree). It's a safe bet that neither Hyde or North would be trying to sell this "model" direct in an open market, both are capable of building much better models for similar costs.
No, they don't set the price to the end user, but they do set it to the retailers. Any monopolist is a market maker. Given that Intensity manufactures and retails a replica for around $250, and presumably makes a profit doing so, we know the sail costs substantially less than that to manufacture. What do you suppose is likelier: that North and Hyde sell the sail to retailers at around $250 and the retailers, who are competing with each other, levy hefty 100% markups, or that it's the sailmakers who hold the monopolies that are bagging the lion's share of the premium?
I disagree with the notion that North and Hyde wouldn't retail the sails directly out of embarrassment. Everyone knows North and Hyde manufacture the sails. If they were genuinely embarrassed to making them they would stop. But of course they won't because they make so much money out of them. The only thing they might be embarrassed about is how fat the profit margin is on these sails.
The sailmakers (North/Hyde) DO NOT sell to the retailer. [...] The sailmakers sell to the Builder/manufacturer (PSE and PSA). The builder then resells to the dealer/retailer. It's also the builder that controls who builds the sails.
Alan, how can it be a "copy sail" if it's fully battened and made of Mylar? A deliberately different sail makes it a new class, just like a Rooster and a Radial are different to a Laser Standard.
How can Intensity et al, make replica or copy sails when they don't use cloth that are outside the tolerances set by the class technical committee?
I think we all agree that an Intensity sail is not a class legal sail. But it is intended to replicate it for the purposes of training. There is nothing to legally stop them from doing this. And I say well done to them for illustrating the absurdity of the current situation. I remember your complaint to Intensity about their use of the sail diagram from the class rules as a supposed copyright infringement. In point of fact, there is no copyright on the rules, at least as published on the web.
I agree with your point that the longevity of the sail should be improved, possibly by using a better, newer cloth. I think the trick would be to reduce the creep and softening over time of the sail, without significantly stiffening it.
Lastly, here's a question for you. What are the sail measuring procedures at a major Laser regatta? If they're already quite involved, I'd have no problem with opening up Laser sailmaking to the free market, as it is in other classes, possibly subject to limits on materials.
One thing we always hear in regard to sail price is the cost of the "obsolete spec" sailcloth.
Given the size of the Laser class and its popularity in racing, I would expect the number of Laser sails sold annually would dwarf any other class. Even with the small size of the sail compared to a much larger boat, the square footage of sailcloth used each year must be huge.
This would make me think the sailcloth used for Laser sails would automatically have an economy of scale, regardless what what actual sailcloth was used.
You misrepresent my complaint in an old thread. The reproduction of the Laser Sail Plan, like all copying text, pictures, etc, without acknowlegement of the source or potentially there permission then it is a breach of copyright, be it on the internet, written or any other media.
There is virtually no measuring of sails performed. As long as the sail button is present, the sail does not appear to have been tampered with and the sail numbers are in the correct locations, then the sail is passed. At no stage is a tape measure, templates etc used.
One thing we always hear in regard to sail price is the cost of the "obsolete spec" sailcloth.
Given the size of the Laser class and its popularity in racing, I would expect the number of Laser sails sold annually would dwarf any other class. Even with the small size of the sail compared to a much larger boat, the square footage of sailcloth used each year must be huge.
This would make me think the sailcloth used for Laser sails would automatically have an economy of scale, regardless what what actual sailcloth was used.
I will add, that it's unlikely that I'll measure anymore boats and I'm very unlikely to request a renewal of my ISAF Measurement Status in 2012/13. I can't be bothered with the s*** fight that is developing in the class and sailing. I am a competitor in the class foremost, I just want to go sailing and not spend my time trying to make it an even match for all competitors or catching cheats, particularly when there is very little reward or acknowegement of your or your teams efforts. The national sailing body and ISAF wants you to attend courses / conferences to obtain certification, but the Laser bodies can't make up their mind over who should pay for it, it's certainly not coming from my pocket.
In the 2008 World Championship events in Australia and NZ (800+ boat), the majority of boats had measurement issues needing to be addressed (usually minor, but even Tracy was failed from memory) and some competitors immediately afterwards went back to their set up once through measurement.
For me, it's now somebody else's problem.