Class Politics Laser sail quality and cost

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not sure what the status is, but whenever it does happen, it would be a perfect time to (like almost every other racing class) have a free market sail building policy. i dont see how it could possibly hurt sailors to have a competitive free market system, where anyone can build your sail as long as it measures in
 
Re: Progress on new sail design ? Laser Tech committee

not sure what the status is, but whenever it does happen, it would be a perfect time to (like almost every other racing class) have a free market sail building policy. i dont see how it could possibly hurt sailors to have a competitive free market system, where anyone can build your sail as long as it measures in
Personaly I like how everyone has the use the same kind of sails (assuming that all "lasermade" sails are the same). I like that there is at least one competetive class were you don't have to think about sails.
 
Re: Progress on new sail design ? Laser Tech committee

Personaly I like how everyone has the use the same kind of sails (assuming that all "lasermade" sails are the same). I like that there is at least one competetive class were you don't have to think about sails.

Duuuuuude,

Have you priced a Laser sail lately?
 
Re: Progress on new sail design ? Laser Tech committee

Personaly I like how everyone has the use the same kind of sails (assuming that all "lasermade" sails are the same). I like that there is at least one competetive class were you don't have to think about sails.

it would be nice if that were true, but its not, they arent all the same.. ie- north vs hyde vs NZ sails, etc

sorry for the hijack!
 
Re: Progress on new sail design ? Laser Tech committee

it would be nice if that were true, but its not, they arent all the same.. ie- north vs hyde vs NZ sails, etc

So I've been told but I wouldn't put to much faith in peoples (mine or others) ideas about sail diffrences. To be quite honest I think it's all in our heads.

I don't have any personal experience with the diffrent sail manufacturers but I doubt that there is any diffrence worth mentioning between them. The design of the laser sail is very simple and thus you'd expect pretty much anyone with basic sailmaking knowledge to be able to make them. Of course, there will always be some sails with defects and I suppose certain makers are sloppier than others. Still, the vast majority of sails should be almost identical. Assuming that the sail makers don't intentionaly make them diffrent.



I'd appriciate it if some admin would move our discussion to a separate thread. Thanks
 
From my experience, setting up a Hyde Sail is very different to setting up a North Sail in the standard rigs, the different cloths used do behave differently, but it's been years since I've used a North Sail so I can't tell you how. But Hyde sail to Hyde sail or North to North, there is a little variation in your setting, but it not exactly rocket science to make the appropriate adjustments and you need to make adjustments anyway as the sail ages.
 
From my experience, setting up a Hyde Sail is very different to setting up a North Sail in the standard rigs, the different cloths used do behave differently, but it's been years since I've used a North Sail so I can't tell you how. But Hyde sail to Hyde sail or North to North, there is a little variation in your setting, but it not exactly rocket science to make the appropriate adjustments and you need to make adjustments anyway as the sail ages.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention the cloth issue. There is quite a bit of variation in the behaviour of the cloth between diffrent batches. The resin threatment that dacron cloth go through is quite hard to control and thus diffrent batches of the "same" cloth can have big variations in stiffness and elasticity. So batches of sails can differ a lot in behaviour. I'd still be supprised if the "avarage" sail still isn't the same from all makers.

If there is actualy a major cloth quality diffrence they should all be forced to use the same cloth manufactorer (which they probably already do, rebranded as their own of course ;))
 
The regional monopolies on sail making for the Laser grossly inflate the price. This is borne out by the fact that Intensity Sails makes some thing nearly the same for less than half the price. The consensus here seems to be that the class sanctioned sails aren't very consistent anyway.

Here's what I propose:

  • Allow competition between sailmakers on price by granting more licenses to produce.
  • Specify tolerances on sail dimensions, stiffness (measured along leech, luff and foot) and weight. This means that sailmakers will need to test and sometimes reject batches of sail cloth (starting to sound like an actual quality control system) to avoid wasting labor on sub-par materials.
  • Require sailmakers to adopt class-specified quality control procedures (admittedly a foreign concept to Laser hull manufacturers) subject to audit by the class, so that sails don't need to be measured at events any more rigorously than they are now.
Food for thought: you can buy a new Yamaha dirt bike for the same price as a new Laser. Shouldn't we expect a comparable consistency in quality?
 
The regional monopolies on sail making for the Laser grossly inflate the price. This is borne out by the fact that Intensity Sails makes some thing nearly the same for less than half the price. The consensus here seems to be that the class sanctioned sails aren't very consistent anyway.

Here's what I propose:

  • Allow competition between sailmakers on price by granting more licenses to produce.
  • Specify tolerances on sail dimensions, stiffness (measured along leech, luff and foot) and weight. This means that sailmakers will need to test and sometimes reject batches of sail cloth (starting to sound like an actual quality control system) to avoid wasting labor on sub-par materials.
  • Require sailmakers to adopt class-specified quality control procedures (admittedly a foreign concept to Laser hull manufacturers) subject to audit by the class, so that sails don't need to be measured at events any more rigorously than they are now.
Food for thought: you can buy a new Yamaha dirt bike for the same price as a new Laser. Shouldn't we expect a comparable consistency in quality?

I fundamentally agree with you, that increased number of sailmakers would bring about competition and a lower price. However, I still wonder about that last part.

If a sailmaker has to be "pre-qualified" by the class, how large would the pool of sailmakers grow? I think it may increase from the current two to maybe three or four, but not a dozen. I don't know if that would be enough to change the situation.

And whether sailmakers are "pre-qualified" or there is individual sail measurement at big regattas, it will consome more class resources to enforce. Right now, I believe sailmaker quality is something handled mostly by the builders.
 
The sailmakers do not set the price to the end user - there are many threads here where this is debunked, but very quickly, both North and Hyde are building the Laser sails in Asia, (different countries, but similar labor costs) and Intensity is purchasing from a major supplier in Asia. Costs for the sails are all similar, except for the royalty button (under $20) and given the purchasing power of the builder you can bet they are pushing Hyde and North for the lowest possible cost.

As to the sail itself and it's short life span, the sailmakers are building the sails to the specs given to them by the builder (and the "class" to a degree). It's a safe bet that neither Hyde or North would be trying to sell this "model" direct in an open market, both are capable of building much better models for similar costs.
 
Oh yes, I forgot to mention the cloth issue. There is quite a bit of variation in the behaviour of the cloth between diffrent batches. The resin threatment that dacron cloth go through is quite hard to control and thus diffrent batches of the "same" cloth can have big variations in stiffness and elasticity. So batches of sails can differ a lot in behaviour. I'd still be supprised if the "avarage" sail still isn't the same from all makers.

If there is actualy a major cloth quality diffrence they should all be forced to use the same cloth manufactorer (which they probably already do, rebranded as their own of course ;))

I haven't noticed a difference in the Hyde Sail cloth in all the years I've been using them, which is since the switch to the 3.8 oz cloth. I can't talk about the North Cloth, it isn't popular in our region.

Again as I've mentioned in other threads, having multiple manufacturers of equipment, including sail cloth is a good thing as it adds security in the event of supplier being unable to supply eg, factory fire. From memory, Hyde purchases their cloth and North use their own cloth, there are two different material sources.

What needs to occur is an upgrade of the cloth specs. If Intensity or any other copy sail manufacturer actually had to use sail cloth that met the current specs, few people would be willing to pay for copy sails that had a life span as hort as the official sails. The current specs are out of date, leading to sails with shorter life spans than what is acceptable these days. The manufacturers have to specially make cloth 20+ years of date.
 
The regional monopolies on sail making for the Laser grossly inflate the price. This is borne out by the fact that Intensity Sails makes some thing nearly the same for less than half the price. The consensus here seems to be that the class sanctioned sails aren't very consistent anyway.


Ie:

  • Allow competition between sailmakers on price by granting more licenses to produce.
  • Specify tolerances on sail dimensions, stiffness (measured along leech, luff and foot) and weight. This means that sailmakers will need to test and sometimes reject batches of sail cloth (starting to sound like an actual quality control system) to avoid wasting labor on sub-par materials.
  • Require sailmakers to adopt class-specified quality control procedures (admittedly a foreign concept to Laser hull manufacturers) subject to audit by the class, so that sails don't need to be measured at events any more rigorously than they are now.
Food for thought: you can buy a new Yamaha dirt bike for the same price as a new Laser. Shouldn't we expect a comparable consistency in quality?

Intensity sails are in no way similar to a laser sail as far as quality and performance, Aussie sail makers are now copying the intensity sail and they really perform to a much higher standard than laser sails, where do we stop this ? fully battened hi tech ?.
we need a strong showing for a one design laser class, and before this gets too far out of hand.
ps lasers are one of the most affordable sailing yachts in the world today
 
Intensity sails are in no way similar to a laser sail as far as quality and performance, Aussie sail makers are now copying the intensity sail and they really perform to a much higher standard than laser sails, where do we stop this ? fully battened hi tech ?.
we need a strong showing for a one design laser class, and before this gets too far out of hand.
ps lasers are one of the most affordable sailing yachts in the world today

Very true, I've seen a mylar copy sail and I belive there is a fully battened mylar copy sail out there.
 
When I got my first Hyde sail, I was still training with a North sail and I will tell you, there is a difference. In my opinion, a large difference.

If I had to put a word to it, I would say, with regard to sail controls, etc, the Hyde sail was much "tighter". This was especially noticeable in the cunningham.

(Before someone points it out: Yes, I am taking into account sail age and wear.)

North sails also seem to always develop these nasty wrinkles towards the leech when you start cranking everything down. As far as I can remember, the Hyde sail did not suffer from this.

The longevity of the Hyde sail also appeared to be superior to the Norths.
 
Personaly I like how everyone has the use the same kind of sails (assuming that all "lasermade" sails are the same). I like that there is at least one competetive class were you don't have to think about sails or money.
 
If you don't a want to sail a strict one design boat - go buy something else and then you'll see what great value for money a Laser is.
 
Very true, I've seen a mylar copy sail and I belive there is a fully battened mylar copy sail out there.

Alan, how can it be a "copy sail" if it's fully battened and made of Mylar? A deliberately different sail makes it a new class, just like a Rooster and a Radial are different to a Laser Standard.
 
The sailmakers do not set the price to the end user - there are many threads here where this is debunked, but very quickly, both North and Hyde are building the Laser sails in Asia, (different countries, but similar labor costs) and Intensity is purchasing from a major supplier in Asia. Costs for the sails are all similar, except for the royalty button (under $20) and given the purchasing power of the builder you can bet they are pushing Hyde and North for the lowest possible cost.

As to the sail itself and it's short life span, the sailmakers are building the sails to the specs given to them by the builder (and the "class" to a degree). It's a safe bet that neither Hyde or North would be trying to sell this "model" direct in an open market, both are capable of building much better models for similar costs.

No, they don't set the price to the end user, but they do set it to the retailers. Any monopolist is a market maker. Given that Intensity manufactures and retails a replica for around $250, and presumably makes a profit doing so, we know the sail costs substantially less than that to manufacture. What do you suppose is likelier: that North and Hyde sell the sail to retailers at around $250 and the retailers, who are competing with each other, levy hefty 100% markups, or that it's the sailmakers who hold the monopolies that are bagging the lion's share of the premium?

I disagree with the notion that North and Hyde wouldn't retail the sails directly out of embarrassment. Everyone knows North and Hyde manufacture the sails. If they were genuinely embarrassed to making them they would stop. But of course they won't because they make so much money out of them. The only thing they might be embarrassed about is how fat the profit margin is on these sails.
 
Here's how I see the Laser and its sails. To an extent, it's like the razor and razor blades model. Gillette sells a razor at a loss, but then makes the money back by overpricing razor blades. Needless to say, you buy more blades than razors.

The price of a new boat doesn't seem too onerous to me, but it's with the sails that we get taken to the cleaners.
 
No, they don't set the price to the end user, but they do set it to the retailers. Any monopolist is a market maker. Given that Intensity manufactures and retails a replica for around $250, and presumably makes a profit doing so, we know the sail costs substantially less than that to manufacture. What do you suppose is likelier: that North and Hyde sell the sail to retailers at around $250 and the retailers, who are competing with each other, levy hefty 100% markups, or that it's the sailmakers who hold the monopolies that are bagging the lion's share of the premium?

I disagree with the notion that North and Hyde wouldn't retail the sails directly out of embarrassment. Everyone knows North and Hyde manufacture the sails. If they were genuinely embarrassed to making them they would stop. But of course they won't because they make so much money out of them. The only thing they might be embarrassed about is how fat the profit margin is on these sails.


The sailmakers (North/Hyde) DO NOT sell to the retailer. Once you understand that, the rest of this will make sense..

The sailmakers sell to the Builder/manufacturer (PSE and PSA). The builder then resells to the dealer/retailer. It's also the builder that controls who builds the sails.

The builder is not going to buy sails from a sailmaker for much more then cost. Why would they when they could just go have the sails built by China Sails or Dimension if they couldn't buy from North and Hyde at the same price low price.

You also mis-read what I said about North and Hyde not selling the existing sail in an open market for one design sails. In an open market, you would sell the best product you could, as winning drives market share. That certainly does not describe the sail the manufacturer and class insist on having the sailmakers build and we, the end users have to buy :mad:
 
The sailmakers (North/Hyde) DO NOT sell to the retailer. [...] The sailmakers sell to the Builder/manufacturer (PSE and PSA). The builder then resells to the dealer/retailer. It's also the builder that controls who builds the sails.

Thank you for correcting me. I didn't know that. In that case it truly is a razors and razor blade model.
 
Alan, how can it be a "copy sail" if it's fully battened and made of Mylar? A deliberately different sail makes it a new class, just like a Rooster and a Radial are different to a Laser Standard.

How can Intensity et al, make replica or copy sails when they don't use cloth that are outside the tolerances set by the class technical committee?
 
Golly whiz whillikers....

Somebody needs to tell the franchise owners we are bothered by the fact they are making so much money they can almost but not quite pay the suppliers who are cutting off their credit lines.

If only somebody could convince the US government our Laser builders were too big to fail....
 
How can Intensity et al, make replica or copy sails when they don't use cloth that are outside the tolerances set by the class technical committee?

I think we all agree that an Intensity sail is not a class legal sail. But it is intended to replicate it for the purposes of training. There is nothing to legally stop them from doing this. And I say well done to them for illustrating the absurdity of the current situation. I remember your complaint to Intensity about their use of the sail diagram from the class rules as a supposed copyright infringement. In point of fact, there is no copyright on the rules, at least as published on the web.

I agree with your point that the longevity of the sail should be improved, possibly by using a better, newer cloth. I think the trick would be to reduce the creep and softening over time of the sail, without significantly stiffening it.

Lastly, here's a question for you. What are the sail measuring procedures at a major Laser regatta? If they're already quite involved, I'd have no problem with opening up Laser sailmaking to the free market, as it is in other classes, possibly subject to limits on materials.
 
I think we all agree that an Intensity sail is not a class legal sail. But it is intended to replicate it for the purposes of training. There is nothing to legally stop them from doing this. And I say well done to them for illustrating the absurdity of the current situation. I remember your complaint to Intensity about their use of the sail diagram from the class rules as a supposed copyright infringement. In point of fact, there is no copyright on the rules, at least as published on the web.

I agree with your point that the longevity of the sail should be improved, possibly by using a better, newer cloth. I think the trick would be to reduce the creep and softening over time of the sail, without significantly stiffening it.

Lastly, here's a question for you. What are the sail measuring procedures at a major Laser regatta? If they're already quite involved, I'd have no problem with opening up Laser sailmaking to the free market, as it is in other classes, possibly subject to limits on materials.

You misrepresent my complaint in an old thread. The reproduction of the Laser Sail Plan, like all copying text, pictures, etc, without acknowlegement of the source or potentially there permission then it is a breach of copyright, be it on the internet, written or any other media.

There is virtually no measuring of sails performed. As long as the sail button is present, the sail does not appear to have been tampered with and the sail numbers are in the correct locations, then the sail is passed. At no stage is a tape measure, templates etc used.
 
One thing we always hear in regard to sail price is the cost of the "obsolete spec" sailcloth.

Given the size of the Laser class and its popularity in racing, I would expect the number of Laser sails sold annually would dwarf any other class. Even with the small size of the sail compared to a much larger boat, the square footage of sailcloth used each year must be huge.

This would make me think the sailcloth used for Laser sails would automatically have an economy of scale, regardless what what actual sailcloth was used.
 
One thing we always hear in regard to sail price is the cost of the "obsolete spec" sailcloth.

Given the size of the Laser class and its popularity in racing, I would expect the number of Laser sails sold annually would dwarf any other class. Even with the small size of the sail compared to a much larger boat, the square footage of sailcloth used each year must be huge.

This would make me think the sailcloth used for Laser sails would automatically have an economy of scale, regardless what what actual sailcloth was used.

I don't think people are suggesting that the cloth is expensive because it is old, but rather that newer, higher performance (i.e. longer lasting) cloth could be used.
 
No doubt you're correct Torrid, but what makes the sails so expensive is the number of people taking a cut on the final price of the sail. There is an economy of scale in the production of the sails, but the cloth production would still be quite small because no one else uses the obsolete cloth.

Authentic Laser Sails:

Laser Dealers
Builders (PSA, PSE etc)
Sailmakers
Government taxes and duties
Shipping Companies
ILCA
ISAF (I think they get a cut)
License Holders

But Intensity et al probably only has:

Sailmaker
Government taxes and duties
Shipping companies
Distributer (i.e. Intensity)

Opening up the market to other sails is just going to increase the cost the new competitors because they won't be permitted to sell direct and will need to go through the builder/dealer network, pay licensing fees etc. Suddenly your $US250 sail will be the $US550.

While I'd love to have cheaper sails and hence why many in Australia purchase our sails online from the US/UK where the sails are 2/3 the price, I still think the major issue is the quality of the cloth used and it's impact on the longevity of the sails. The sails wouldn't really be considered expensive if they lasted a few years.
 
You misrepresent my complaint in an old thread. The reproduction of the Laser Sail Plan, like all copying text, pictures, etc, without acknowlegement of the source or potentially there permission then it is a breach of copyright, be it on the internet, written or any other media.

There is virtually no measuring of sails performed. As long as the sail button is present, the sail does not appear to have been tampered with and the sail numbers are in the correct locations, then the sail is passed. At no stage is a tape measure, templates etc used.

Alan, I disagreed with your legal opinion, but I didn't misrepresent what you said.

Since we should seek to cast light rather than heat on the issues, here's what I learned when I dug around a bit on copyright law. I thought that if a creative work didn't have a copyright notice on it, it didn't have a copyright protection. That was true in the US until 1989 when it became a signatory to the Berne Convention. These days, in almost all countries, the copyright is assumed, although it is greatly strengthened by a proper notice in the format "Copyright [dates] by [author/owner]", where © can substitute "Copyright"

Here's another question that I've wondered about for some time. My newer, better sail was made, believe it or not, in 1990. It sat in its original packaging until 2007, when my dad gave me the boat and sails. It's new enough to have the 3.8 oz patch on it but not the button. How would a sail like that be treated? Also, my spars which are original to the boat (137443) don't have decals. I assume the spars weren't getting patches back then, but I think they are now. Is that right, and how are old spars like this treated in measurement? (other than being measured, of course!)
 
Sail without a button: At a major event I'd probably not pass it, we're being told not to accept any sails without the button because there are sails being presented which are non authentic sails being presented, e.g. the sail found in the UK with laser emblem, marked as a laser sail patch. 6-8 years ago I would have accepted the sail as just being an old sail, but Intensity et al, have put pay to that with their copy sails as some of the copies are trying to make out that they are real laser sails with decals etc.

No stickers on spars: Having the stickers on the spars is still not mandatory, it probably will be one day. At major events in our region, we tend to do a full measure on the spars anyway. Having said that, if the spar doesn't look right (not anodised or anodised in another colour than clear or black), it will be rejected. The better measurers know what equipment is being produced and sold by the builders, both locally and internationally and if it doesn't look right then we treat the equipment with extreme scepticism.

The more non-authentic equipment on the market, the more equipment that will be closely scrutinised for being authentic and the more equipment that will not get through measurement and some of it will be authentic equipment, that's the unfortunate cost being brought onto the class by replica parts and equipment.
 
I will add, that it's unlikely that I'll measure anymore boats and I'm very unlikely to request a renewal of my ISAF Measurement Status in 2012/13. I can't be bothered with the s*** fight that is developing in the class and sailing. I am a competitor in the class foremost, I just want to go sailing and not spend my time trying to make it an even match for all competitors or catching cheats, particularly when there is very little reward or acknowegement of your or your teams efforts. The national sailing body and ISAF wants you to attend courses / conferences to obtain certification, but the Laser bodies can't make up their mind over who should pay for it, it's certainly not coming from my pocket.

In the 2008 World Championship events in Australia and NZ (800+ boat), the majority of boats had measurement issues needing to be addressed (usually minor, but even Tracy was failed from memory) and some competitors immediately afterwards went back to their set up once through measurement.

For me, it's now somebody else's problem.
 
One thing we always hear in regard to sail price is the cost of the "obsolete spec" sailcloth.

Given the size of the Laser class and its popularity in racing, I would expect the number of Laser sails sold annually would dwarf any other class. Even with the small size of the sail compared to a much larger boat, the square footage of sailcloth used each year must be huge.

This would make me think the sailcloth used for Laser sails would automatically have an economy of scale, regardless what what actual sailcloth was used.

The thing is that many other classes use the same sail cloth (even though they are different classes, their sails are made of the same stuff) yet (as I understand it), Laser is the only class that uses its type of cloth. Thus, that Laser dwarfs any other class is not relevant because you need to compare e.g. Laser with RSxxx+Fireball+GP14+Solo+Lark+Firefly+.... etc, etc. at which point Laser becomes dwarfed by the total of other classes.

Also, a lot of people at club racing level are now using knock-offs. They e.g. the UK Laser Std Nationals had less than 50 boats last year (and a mainstream UK sailing magazine lists the 50+ Nationals and Laser Std does not feature), so whilst the Laser is popular at club level (with knock-off sails), at regatta level maybe there are fewer people so fewer new class legal sails sold.

Personally I dislike the knock-offs as it breaks the strict one design in a big non-trivial way. If it were a choice of racing against 20 boats allowing knock-offs or 5 with class legal gear then I would chose 20 boats but I suspect that without knock-offs we would not see numbers dropping. Quite a few people have both class legal and knock-off sails and keep the class legal for occasional regatta use (maybe their home club meeting once a year) - like wearing your "Sunday best" only occasionally so it lasts.

I do wish the sail issues would be sorted quickly as I believe it is damaging the class at the moment.

(all in my own opinion/experience)
Ian
 
I will add, that it's unlikely that I'll measure anymore boats and I'm very unlikely to request a renewal of my ISAF Measurement Status in 2012/13. I can't be bothered with the s*** fight that is developing in the class and sailing. I am a competitor in the class foremost, I just want to go sailing and not spend my time trying to make it an even match for all competitors or catching cheats, particularly when there is very little reward or acknowegement of your or your teams efforts. The national sailing body and ISAF wants you to attend courses / conferences to obtain certification, but the Laser bodies can't make up their mind over who should pay for it, it's certainly not coming from my pocket.

In the 2008 World Championship events in Australia and NZ (800+ boat), the majority of boats had measurement issues needing to be addressed (usually minor, but even Tracy was failed from memory) and some competitors immediately afterwards went back to their set up once through measurement.

For me, it's now somebody else's problem.

Hi Alan,

That is a great shame but I can understand your reasoning (and to be fair I don't blame you I would not be a measurer for all the tea in China). It will be a loss to the class. I hope you will still frequent here and give you (in my experience) learned opinion on all things Laser.

It is surprising given what you have said above about measurement that they do not perform a random check on boats that are at major events and if they are found to have the same measurement issue that was corrected for the initial measurement then the competitors results should be binned.

It is good to get the antipodean take on things as well as the US and UK opinions.

Cheers,

Paul
 
Typically at Australian championships and higher class events, we do put jigs over spars and boards. But we never measure the actual sails or hulls, they are visually checked, along with the rigging. I understand we probably do a more thorough measurement check than many other regions, but Jean-Luc would like to see what we do uniformerly adopted when the boats aren't supplied. I will admit that if a boat causes me to raise my eyebrows, I keep digging deeper, along with compitors who have got on my wrong side before.
 
"sailors went back to the original configuration after measurement"

Either you filed a request for those sailors to be thrown out of sailing for a couple years for their unsportsmanlike behavior..

Or your accusations should be retracted and apologies made to us for making stuff up.


I have a problem with any grouip of people who cheat.

I have an equal problem with ny group of people who know about cheaters and do nothing.

I have a HUGE problem with those who generally bad mouth the sailing community while conducting themselves such that they are members of either of those groups.

If you were a judge / measurer and you saw re rigged boats and did nothing... I consider you to be acting teh role of a lowlife ranked lower than those who cheated. Why??

Because YOU are supposed to know better!!!

and you wear a title recognizing you for your decency.

I am NOT sorry if I offended some OTHER reader.

I expect better from those who call themselves judges.

and

If I thought you were a hopeless scum I would not have bothered to type this note.

I am pitching for a fix.

Please modify your behavior.

You have been a good man in the past..

I have faith you can do it agan.

You have stood between cheaters and the game.

You know how.

Please don't abandon your core.

Name names!!!
 

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