Laser Hull Building

F

fordewind

Member
Dear friends! Can somebody tell how the hull and the deck are build? I have read an article from the Dick Tillman book. But I Don't believe that it is right! Any ideas? Interesting in everything. Hull and deck thickness, is it sandwich?, where the stringers are glued and how much stringers the hull has, is it made by vacuum formation... Maybe some photos...

p.s: I cant believe that hull is build from gelcoat, 1 layer of 4 ounce mat pvc foam stringers and 1 layer of 1 ounce mat.

Waiting for answers...

Thanks!!!
 
The deck is foam sandwich, pretty much as you described. The hull is just several layers of glass, but no foam. Both parts are vacuum bagged.
 
fordewind said:
Dear friends! Can somebody tell how the hull and the deck are build? I have read an article from the Dick Tillman book. But I Don't believe that it is right! Any ideas? Interesting in everything. Hull and deck thickness, is it sandwich?, where the stringers are glued and how much stringers the hull has, is it made by vacuum formation... Maybe some photos...

p.s: I cant believe that hull is build from gelcoat, 1 layer of 4 ounce mat pvc foam stringers and 1 layer of 1 ounce mat.

Waiting for answers...

Thanks!!!
Click to expand...


You can't believe it?? I am curious why you can't?

Just for grins. What's your speculative guess??
 
gouvernail said:
You can't believe it?? I am curious why you can't?

Just for grins. What's your speculative guess??
Click to expand...
Ok! Lats talk on this speculative guess... Especially about the hull. If you take 1 layer of 4 ounce mat and 1 layer of 1 ounce mat + gelcoat you will have the thickness of the hull in my opinion near 1-2 mm. (I try to laminate 3 layers of 4 ounce mat without vacuum, it give me nearly 3-4 mm thickness, with vacuum the thickness will be smaller).
 
I don't think the boat is *bagged* ... when I was there I saw the whole line and did not see any bagging going on anywhere. They did mention the lay-up on the hull but I don't remember what it was except that it is polyester resin.

There is some foam in the hull to provide some stiffness - see my album of the Laser.

If you call Laser Performance they may give you the info I don't think that it is secret given the fact the boat is nearly 50 years old and several builders have made these things.

http://www.laserforum.org/album.php?albumid=24
 
I think that it would be quite tuff to go into competition with Laser Performace building Lasers. I think that I read about a guy building 420s in China and it took several boats submitted to the 420 measurers which went over the hulls with a laser scanner and he had to have several boats out of that lot to pass the test.
 
If you look at my photos of the Laser lay-up in the mold you will notice some foam stiffeners running lengthwise down the hull. The *fin* that you see in the middle is a piece of marine ply on end that actually forms a web between the bottom of the cockpit and the hull.

I think the stringers are there to prevent *oil canning* of the hull. My Laser is 40 years old and has some softening of the hull and I can hear it *oil can* when I sail. It would make great sound effects for a WWII submarine movie.
 
Oh ... just as a side note. When I was there I saw a few new Lasers with black magic marker writing all over them. This was after they were inspected and the boats failed so they marked what was wrong for quality control. They have very high standards a will toss boats in the can if they don't pass.

All these boats are hand made and can vary in weight. If someone uses too much resin in the lay-up and the boat comes in underweight or overweight by a few pounds they toss the seemingly good looking boat in the dumpster -- what a shame!
 
wessel said:
Oh ... just as a side note. When I was there I saw a few new Lasers with black magic marker writing all over them. This was after they were inspected and the boats failed so they marked what was wrong for quality control. They have very high standards a will toss boats in the can if they don't pass.

All these boats are hand made and can vary in weight. If someone uses too much resin in the lay-up and the boat comes in underweight or overweight by a few pounds they toss the seemingly good looking boat in the dumpster -- what a shame!
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Thanks Wessel. Its very interesting information. Its a pity that you don't remember the lay-up on the hull. I don't want to build Laser myself. I want to know everything about the Laser. I want to know the secret why 40 years old boats still sailing. And everything is ok with them! I live in Ukraine and in my country there are many plagiarism Lasers (they are called Luch {translation RAY}) which were build 20 years ago and today the can't go sailing thay are heaps of trash. They has same hull but was build another way. Look at the photos!
 

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gouvernail said:
The correct answer?? Tillman's book properly describes the laminate
Click to expand...

Gouvernail! I ask about laminate not because I know more than everyone but because I want to know more I know today! Why are you sure that it is right? I cant believe in something without facts. One gay say that it is vacuum bagged second that it made without vacuum. Second tell the facts that when he was at the Laser Performance he didn't see vacuum instruments... And I believe him! But if I believe the first guy I'll didn't find truth. Can you corroborate your words with facts? Why do you know that it is right?

Thank you!

Waiting for answer!
 
fordewind said:
Gouvernail! I ask about laminate not because I know more than everyone but because I want to know more I know today! Why are you sure that it is right? I cant believe in something without facts. One gay say that it is vacuum bagged second that it made without vacuum. Second tell the facts that when he was at the Laser Performance he didn't see vacuum instruments... And I believe him! But if I believe the first guy I'll didn't find truth. Can you corroborate your words with facts? Why do you know that it is right?

Thank you!

Waiting for answer!
Click to expand...

My teachers, wherever they may be, always encouraged me to think independently. Maybe you had one of those teachers as well. But sometimes you have to take somebody's word. You will ask whom can I trust to be that somebody? Well, Gouvernail is definitely somebody! He owns a shop where he fixes all sorts of boats and he has been a Laser sailor for a long long time and a great supporter of the Class. I can mention a few other things about him, but that's not necessary here. Dick Tillman is a somebody as well. Sailed Laser since the very beginning and wrote those very helpful books. Won more than a few championships (and is still sailing after all those years).

I think this discussion should be focused on how to get those Ukrainian (USSR made) boats on the water again. The one in the pictures sure looks like it needs a lot of love.
 
Wavedancer said:
My teachers, wherever they may be, always encouraged me to think independently. Maybe you had one of those teachers as well. But sometimes you have to take somebody's word. You will ask whom can I trust to be that somebody? Well, Gouvernail is definitely somebody! He owns a shop where he fixes all sorts of boats and he has been a Laser sailor for a long long time and a great supporter of the Class. I can mention a few other things about him, but that's not necessary here. Dick Tillman is a somebody as well. Sailed Laser since the very beginning and wrote those very helpful books. Won more than a few championships (and is still sailing after all those years).

I think this discussion should be focused on how to get those Ukrainian (USSR made) boats on the water again. The one in the pictures sure looks like it needs a lot of love.
Click to expand...

Thanks for explain! I'll take Tillman's world!

p.s: this discussion shouldn't be focused on how to get this Ukrainian boat on water!!! If i want to get this info than I'd made a thread: "How to get boat at water again"

p.p.s: there are many information in my native language on how to repair boat. That is why I don't need to ask people all over the world how to do this.
 
1 Can somebody tell thickness of the hull and deck?

2 Thickness of the pvc foam stringers? and their width?

3 Thickness of the polyurethane foam in sandwich?

4 Why stringers are made from pvc foam and sandwich from polyurethane foam?

5 Thickness of the marine plywood?
 
Those 5 questions are to specific for common Laserites, 'fordewind'. Usually one buy a new or an old Laser and don't care to much about those hull specifics, but go out and sail. If something is to repair, either the Laser store do it (often for new boats) or the repair is selfmade (often at old hulls). For the last case, most questions are about "how to do such a repair selmade" and therefore one finds a lot of sufficient hints at the www. But for the repairs there is no big need to know this 5 questions exact. So, I am afraid, you won't find suficient answers to your 5 questions. Or you thake a saw and cut yourself a hull of a Laser in pieces. But this not makes sense:

The saying is "all Lasers are born equal", but the truth is: they are not equal. If one compares the hulls that have been built at different continents (f.e.: NA, Australia, Europe) one is able to find out, that f.e. different resins have been used. Also: the single builders have changed for example the resin over the years, too. Resin of modern times is better than it has been in the 70ties/80ties, that's no big secret to find out. In in modern times it was possible, to reduce the use of the number of layers fiber glass mats. So, if one locates the center of weight at a new hull and compares this to a 30 years old hull one finds out: the center of weight at new hull is more to the rear than at those old hulls. This means: at the bow less ressin or/and less fibreglass mats are used, today and the builder put some more resin to rear to keep the correct weight for a Laser. Thats one reason why new hulls feel better to sail than the old hulls. Also the fall of the mast to rear or to the sides was interesting in the past. But now, the builders use masks/stencils to for the lenght-mast-fall and all lenght-mast-falls are equal now. etc., etc. etc.


You get no detailed information from me. Reason: I don't know any detailed specifics of your 5 questions. "It is totally out of interest to keep my Laser runing and have fun on the water. I am a common Laserite, not a boatmaker." ... in this way, most of the Laserites worldwide, I guess.

You want to know why Lasers are so durable? The truth is, the most are not so durable as you think they are. If you sail a Laser hull very intensive and in big (beach)waves and strong winds, you would see how less durable she is aft only one season of sailing. Old Laser hulls you probably see and that look pretty, often haven't been sailed for many years or only very sometimes and they have been stored allways at a dry warm (not under zero degree Celsius) place. If you take a Laser hull and sail here a lot and never keep out the water inside of the hull and store her allways in the direct, hot summer sun and in winter at humid freeze/cold places you would find out: this hull oldens very-very quick (as quick as the Luch).
You don't see those heavy used broken Laser hulls, in reason they are already either at the lakes ground or at the dump (it is not difficult to take a chainsaw and cut an old broken Laserhull quick in nice small pieces for the dump).

Finally: As I am from GER and being advanced civil engineer for transportaion/ streets/railways, I do know a lot about former industrial spying, former "GDR" and fromer "USSR" have done at my former country "FRG" ("West Germany"). But this industrial spys often not have been clever enough to steel 100% of all of the important sectret industrial patents or materials to build goods.
Translated to the Luch this means: USSR was able to copy the design of the Laser, yes, but not did steel the information what exact resin and what exact fiber glss the Laserbuilders did use in that times. So, the Luch is constructed with low quality resin and low quality fiber glass. This is another reason why the Luch is not durable in the way Laser hulls of that time are.

Happy sailing
Ciao
LooserLu
 
fordewind, I also have been wondering about your questions. Are you planning on building your own boat? Are you a marine engineer? Just curious?
 
He think he would be violating copyright laws if he tries to sell one. Bruce Kirby still owns it and he would have to get a license from him.

If you want knock one off of an old hull for yourself you can. I would at least make it out of kevlar and epoxy.
 
wessel said:
The *fin* that you see in the middle is a piece of marine ply on end that actually forms a web between the bottom of the cockpit and the hull.
Click to expand...


I recently installed an inspection port in my newish boat (194 series) and was able too have a look at how well this one was built. Average would best describe it.

That plywood fin or stringer that runs from mast step to the front of centreboard case was just bare exposed ply with some glass on either side of it to attach it to bottom of hull. The bare timber was covered in black mold and was degraded from water exposure. I sanded the rotten timber off and will eventually just paint some resin over it to seal it.

centralstringer.jpg
Image from Wessel's album.

As I write this it just occurred to me, I am talking about a boat that has done a handful of regattas and is quite new. Sounds more like I am rebuilding an old 135 series boat.

I am sure it would only take an extra minute to paint some resin over it to make it waterproof.

Where the timber runs under the cockpit, it does not actually make contact with the undersurface of the cockpit floor. There is a gap of about 10mm/half an inch directly under cockpit floor. Possibly that is intentional to prevent pressure on the cockpit floor from forcing the hull to deform under it.


The boat leaked from brand new as it had a small leak in back top of centreboard case. Fair enough, I just fixed it myself and got on with sailing it. At least that way I know it was properly repaired.

I have bought somewhere around 15 lasers over the years and they all vary in how well the were constructed. Some were well made boats that stayed fast, some went soft in less than a season and others felt fast or slow in different conditions or angles of sailing.

This new one for whatever its faults seems fast and will be my boat for next few years. With the cost of a new laser here around 9k now, it has become more of a chore than a pleasure trading to a new boat.
 
Can any one explain to me how the deck joins with the centrecase - i believe i am getting water in somewhere along this join - in understand that this area is problematic; i intend to reseal it but am keen to know more about the construction to ensure i get done right;

just a note on copyright - copyright laws differ from country to country but most countries provide a period of protection to prevent copying of 3d products. however, the period of this protection depends largely on the nature of the item concerned and its commercialisation. the magic number tends to be around 50 units - once this number is exceeded in sales, a shorter period of protection either kicks in, or copyright protection is removed completely. without researching the details too much, i would be very surprised if copyright protection still remains for the laser hull and components in many countries given its utilitarian nature (functional) and commercial success. the general underlying policy is that functional items intended for mass production should not benefit from the extensive protection provided by copyright.

D
 
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