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Intensity Sails

Old Geezer

Member
First, posts will be deleted, at our discretion, that lean on the side of promoting a product that is not a paid sponsor of the forum when the post(s) are made by the marketer of that product.
Hmmm. As you use Ads by Google as one source of income for this forum, you may not always know who are "paid sponsors of the forum". Currently this thread, and the Laser Class Politics section of the forum are displaying a banner ad at the bottom of the page saying..... Sail with Intensity. Ha Ha.

Of course, as that evil troll over at the Sunfish Forum pointed out I am totally clueless when it comes to technology, but if I click on that Sail with Intensity ad wouldn't it generate a small payment from Mr Intensity via Mr Google to Mr Bradley?
 

Bradley

Administrator
Staff member
but if I click on that Sail with Intensity ad wouldn't it generate a small payment from Mr Intensity via Mr Google to Mr Bradley?
Yes, it does, which is why additional links are not allowed. If an advertiser wants to advertise via Google Ads instead of through the forum sponsorship options, the only place the advertiser is allowed to place links is in the google ad itself. Sponsors pay to be a part of the forum and support it, google advertisers are looking for bargain basement placement in TLF's unsold inventory. Any spot on TLF with a Google ad can be purchased directly from TLF and then the sponsorship rules apply instead of the Google Adsence rules. This forum would not be possible without the continued support of major sponsors like APS.
 

tammi5256

New Member
Our frostbiting club agreed last season, after a heated discussion, to let the Intensity sails in for club racing. I bought a radial recently for a practice sail. The price was certainly right (200.00 including shipping) and it was delivered within a day of my order. I've only tried the sail in light winds against other sailors with class legal sails. I found it to be a fine sail and am looking forward to using it in a heavier blow.
 

GBR 134

Member
The value of sails debate is a common one amongst Laser sailors worldwide. On the UK site there were many views, as here, arguing for a better/more durable sail and also arguing for an open manufacture policy to measurement rules as is common in all the other classes I have raced. I think all of these are misguided - the laser std sail is a great sail for competitive class racing and has no need of improvement. If we are all sailing the same gear racing will be better than if we sail with different gear. The only sensible way forward is for us all to campaign to maintain the status quo and press for a price reduction if you can get one great!

On the price point no one can explain to me why I pay PSE more for a new sail in the UK than if I buy one in the USA and pay for the import costs and duty to do it 'above board'. PSE price for a rolled sail (without battens) is £ 420 which at todays exchange rate is $ 843

PS Can anyone tell me how to change my name on this forum - I never meant to call myself by my e-mail and no I don't represent any commercial interest saimaking or otherwise. Should I declare that I had windsurfing sponsorship in the early 80s from Bic?
 

Deimos

Member
To some extent the issue might be obviously different rather than faster or slower. Somebody with a flashy looking kevlar sail who does well risks having his/her success put down to the flashy sail - even though it makes no difference (in my/this example anyway). Maybe more importantly, those without the magic flashy sail risk putting their lower place down to not having "the sail" - missing the real issues with their performance and thus failing to improve.


It is always easier to blame poor performance on something other than your own capabilities/abilities and flashy expensive looking sails (that make no speed difference) is bound to become an ideal scapegoat.


Ian
 

sailchris

Member
Yes, it does, which is why additional links are not allowed. If an advertiser wants to advertise via Google Ads instead of through the forum sponsorship options, the only place the advertiser is allowed to place links is in the google ad itself. Sponsors pay to be a part of the forum and support it, google advertisers are looking for bargain basement placement in TLF's unsold inventory. Any spot on TLF with a Google ad can be purchased directly from TLF and then the sponsorship rules apply instead of the Google Adsence rules. This forum would not be possible without the continued support of major sponsors like APS.
The problem you are running into here is that this became a thread about relative prices of sails. "Mr. Intensity" posted a list of his prices to rebut a prior comment about sail prices. It was not a commercial post. It was not advertising. Indeed, it added relevant information to a discussion about the pricing monopoly on Laser sails. It also bothers me that it seems that the post would not have been removed if it had not been made by the account that you associate with Intensity Sails.

This forum is only relevant if its members can discuss relevant topics. Such topics will occasionally include information that appears to be commercial, but which, in context, is relevant to the thread. While I appreciate the work you do to maintain and manage this forum, please try not to interfere with relevant discussions unless there is a real need for interference.
 

Bradley

Administrator
Staff member
SailChris, there were multiple posts promoting Intensity that were deleted in an obvious attempt to generate business for himself. The price list was not the only post deleted.
 

sailchris

Member
SailChris, there were multiple posts promoting Intensity that were deleted in an obvious attempt to generate business for himself. The price list was not the only post deleted.
Regardless, the price list was not a commercially motivated post and should not have been removed. And, since commercial postings do not seem to be much of a problem here, perhaps a less draconian policy would be more appropriate?
 

SFBayLaser

Member
If Mr Intensity has found a way to make inexpensive durable sails for all those classes (including the Laser) then ILCA should hire him as a consultant to work out how to move to a situation where we have class-legal inexpensive durable sails.
The key word in this sentance is right at the beginning: "if".

IMHO, and with all due respect to Mr. Intensity, I don't believe he has found a way to produce Laser/Radial sails for less money (within a few dollars). Rather, by bypassing the supply chain he has found a way to sell them to the end user for a lot less.

I do not have an Intensity sail and cannot say whether it behaves exactly the same as a class legal sail (and is therefore really a suitable "practice" sail). I've talked to a number of people who have owned the sails, some love them, some don't - sort of a familiar refrain. And I also have a certain amount of anecdotal evidence on Intensity sail "durability" (from discussions with some owners and from this forum) which has yet to convince me they are really more "durable" than class legal sails.

So... I don't think the "if" clause is necessarily true, therefore it isn't quite time to follow the "then" branch.
 

Merrily

Administrator
Regardless, the price list was not a commercially motivated post and should not have been removed. And, since commercial postings do not seem to be much of a problem here, perhaps a less draconian policy would be more appropriate?
You are just like Old Geezer, an anonymous poster. Why in the world would you think that your opinion on the running of the forum has any consequence?
 

SFBayLaser

Member
SailChris, there were multiple posts promoting Intensity that were deleted in an obvious attempt to generate business for himself. The price list was not the only post deleted.
Regardless, the price list was not a commercially motivated post and should not have been removed. And, since commercial postings do not seem to be much of a problem here, perhaps a less draconian policy would be more appropriate?

So... is this a thread about Intensity Sails vs. North/Hyde or a thread about TLF's terms of service?
Maybe a new thread can be started about the TOS and we can keep this one focused on the sails? It would be easier for me...
 

sailchris

Member
You are just like Old Geezer, an anonymous poster. Why in the world would you think that your opinion on the running of the forum has any consequence?
I accept that my opinion may be of no consequence to the running of the forum. However, that does not mean I am not entitled to express it.

One fact, and only one fact, entitles me to an opinion on the running of the forum:

I am a user of the forum.
 

sailchris

Member
The key word in this sentance is right at the beginning: "if".

IMHO, and with all due respect to Mr. Intensity, I don't believe he has found a way to produce Laser/Radial sails for less money (within a few dollars). Rather, by bypassing the supply chain he has found a way to sell them to the end user for a lot less.

I do not have an Intensity sail and cannot say whether it behaves exactly the same as a class legal sail (and is therefore really a suitable "practice" sail). I've talked to a number of people who have owned the sails, some love them, some don't - sort of a familiar refrain. And I also have a certain amount of anecdotal evidence on Intensity sail "durability" (from discussions with some owners and from this forum) which has yet to convince me they are really more "durable" than class legal sails.

So... I don't think the "if" clause is necessarily true, therefore it isn't quite time to follow the "then" branch.
I agree. The Intensity sails do not appear to represent a change in design that would improve durability, but perhaps someone else will come along and design a sail that does. If such a sail were comparable in performance to the current class legal sail, could made in the numbers needed to supply the class, at an acceptable price, then perhaps it should be considered for class approval.
 

GBR 134

Member
I agree. The Intensity sails do not appear to represent a change in design that would improve durability, but perhaps someone else will come along and design a sail that does. If such a sail were comparable in performance to the current class legal sail, could made in the numbers needed to supply the class, at an acceptable price, then perhaps it should be considered for class approval.
Ther is nothing wrong with the design - it is near perfect. The durability is purely a cloth/cost issue. However if you specify a more durable cloth the characteristics will change. However durable the cloth/design the guys who win will always have new(ish) sails for big events. Stick with the current sail and get a price reduction if you can! (@ 50 % would be about right in the UK as that would match the current US price and we have little or no dealer network to feed - oh excuse me I'm just off to refuel my squadron of flying pigs)
 

663

Member
The (lack of) durability in the class sail is from the cloth used, the large scope of acceptable cloth lots and not having a leech cord. All should be dealt with by the class and its rules.

The price of a class sail is separate issue. Everyone knows the retail price of a class sail isn't related to the cost to produce it, just what we are willing to pay for it.

If you're sailing in a class event where membership in the class is required, you should/are required to use a class sail. If you're in an event with no class membership requirements, you should be able to use less expensive equipment (sails/masts/bailers/ect).
 
R

Ross B

Guest
I agree. The Intensity sails do not appear to represent a change in design that would improve durability, but perhaps someone else will come along and design a sail that does. If such a sail were comparable in performance to the current class legal sail, could made in the numbers needed to supply the class, at an acceptable price, then perhaps it should be considered for class approval.
Thats the most spot on post on this entire thread, and I think it sums up everything that everyone has tried to say, Gold Star for you!



The (lack of) durability in the class sail is from the cloth used, the large scope of acceptable cloth lots and not having a leech cord. All should be dealt with by the class and its rules.

The price of a class sail is separate issue. Everyone knows the retail price of a class sail isn't related to the cost to produce it, just what we are willing to pay for it.
I have an old sail with a leech cord, it works wonders. I think they should seriously consider adding them, cheap and effective.
 

SFBayLaser

Member
If you're sailing in a class event where membership in the class is required, you should/are required to use a class sail. If you're in an event with no class membership requirements, you should be able to use less expensive equipment (sails/masts/bailers/ect).
FWIW... I think if you are racing a Laser then you should respect the class rules always. Granted, there are specific situations where it is worth looking the other way (e.g. you are trying to get new sailors out and they don't have all the "right" equipment but they aren't going to be a factor in the racing anyway). But, in general, I think once you open the door...

Everyone seems to be quick to recognize Intensity sails as ok replacements for class sails and from what I have read on TLF they don't seem to be any faster or slower than class sails. But, now that I know I don't need to race with a class legal sail, what if I buy a "practice" sail from my local sailmaker for less than an Intensity sail and, oh by the way, the sailmaker tweaks it just a tiny bit so I can point higher, or go just a teeny bit faster? Are you going to say ok to the guy with the Intensity sail and no to me?

And where does it stop? If it is ok to use sails that are not class legal, is it also going to be ok to use afermarket blocks? blades? Spars? ??

You can say "this is all crazy, who would do that for fleet racing?" Well, it does happen, I have raced against some people who thought winning the annual race in the middle of nowhere was the most important regatta on the planet.

It seems to me that the single most underappreciated part of Laser sailing is that fact that we can arrive at a regatta and assume that all the boats are identical and that the racing will be sailor against sailor. Further, a simple glance at a boat reassures you that this must be true (unless someone has spent a ton of money to hide it). But if you start allowing aftermarket equipment during racing, how can you be sure that the guy who won was really the best sailor?

Just my two cents as a sailor and not as a class official.
 
I don't claim to be or want to be an impartial moderator.

I'm glad you are enjoying yourself. I realize that StylusCentral aka Intensity Sails did not start this thread. He's still getting plenty of free advertising from it, and I'd like it if he'd show some appreciation by not wasting my time by posting illegal ads.
My apologies for the "illegal posts" I was trying to get the word out on a new item that I will not mention again and risk an offense.

I do appreciate the discussion. Please know that I only got into this business as a frustrated Laser sailor wanting to be more competitive without costing alot and draw more people into our great sport by making it more affordable.

SF Laser mentioned that there is a $12 payment per clas legal sail to the class. I offered this to the class when I started out and was flatly refused. I am not trying to harm the class. I am a member.

I am not motivated by creating a stir here. I want this sport to be more affordable. So I am doing something about it.
 

Chainsaw

Brmmm Brmmm
But if you start allowing aftermarket equipment during racing, how can you be sure that the guy who won was really the best sailor?
What is even more worrying is when a supplier that is supposed to supply class legal parts starts sending out parts that are cheap copies.

Probably not a big concern with the American scene, but in back waters like out here, the slippery slope has begun.

That is more of a worry than Intensity sails saying they are selling you a non legal part.
 
R

Ross B

Guest
do you guys think a race can be won or lost based on class legal, or nonlegal boom blocks?
 

Chainsaw

Brmmm Brmmm
do you guys think a race can be won or lost based on class legal, or nonlegal boom blocks?
nope.

ILCA can nominate 2008 carbo blocks as standard or Holt Allen 1976 vintage plastic crappers for all I care, as long as everyone has the same gear.

The most obvious grey area is the addition of the turbo kits which make things much easier. I've heard that adjusting the vang downwind was out of the question with the original set up.

As soon as lasers become anything other than strict OD, then significant advances in sail and foil design will allow the guy with the biggest wallet to have the edge. I wouldn't like to see the class begining to be divided into a fleet of old uncompetitive and new competitive boats and I don't think the intensity sails do that because they are the same shape as the legal sail.

If lasers weren't OD, why the hell would anyone sail them? They aren't the greatest boat of it's size.
 

Deimos

Member
Maybe a race wont be won or lost on a boom block but it avoids people making it any sort of issue. It avoids people getting into the state of mind where they start searching for stuff to buy that might give them "an edge". Were people to start having different boom blocks you can just see certain types of people gathering around a boat with some super turbo block after a race looking at them, spinning them and thinking about how long to their next pay cheque. And that (for me) is not what Lasers are about. It is more about people thinking and talking about tactics, strategy, technique, etc. rather than gizmos.


I am all for keeping the class a strict one design. I'm even unsure about the new XD stuff (though that happened before I started and I got one anyway - though not everybody has) - and it's history. I would probably have voted in favour having changed my mind every few hours before voting.


Ian
 

Mawill

New Member
do you guys think a race can be won or lost based on class legal, or nonlegal boom blocks?
What happens if someone comes up with a block that costs 150 Dollars, but the line runs through it so much smoother that it means the sheet won't drag in the water, or that someone does not have to hold the boom out and can concentrate on other things - the guy with the most money wins - or at least has an advantage - that is what the One Design concept tries to avoid.

Same thing with the 'Upgrade' kit. There was nothing wrong with the old set up, it was clunky, it was hard to adjust (in some eyes), but we all had the same thing. Now, in my group, there are those that shelled out for the rig (I sadly did after 4 years of resistance) and those that do not. You can see the difference in the amount to adjustments those that do not use the new set up are doing compared to those that do. Again, the Have's and the Have Not's. Full Disclosure, I like the 'new' setup, however, not the pricetag that came with it or the fact that some don't have it.

This One Design concept is inherently prone to making 50% of the people mad. You create monopolies that allow people to charge more than they may be able to otherwise (maybe VG is, maybe they aren't, I don't know). You allow multiple vendors, then you 'polute' the concept, or you have lots of people running around measuring things. Either way, it costs money.

My Opinion - If it means that we all have the same stuff, then I accept that I may pay more for a sail, boom block, mast etc.. I don't know of any other way to ensure (as best as possible) the one design concept. The suggestions in this thread would all in the end, cost someone money, either in having people run around measuring things, or in technology that somehow ensures quality.

Anyway, I am on my way out, with my one and only over priced 4 year old class sail to go for a sail, comfortable in the knowledge that the only blame for my painfully humbling placings lies firmly in the hands of the skipper.

Matt
 

HECS

New Member
nope.

The most obvious grey area is the addition of the turbo kits which make things much easier. I've heard that adjusting the vang downwind was out of the question with the original set up.
Naaaa, an adult male in reasonable condition could adjust the vang downwind okay. And Schiedt won the 2004 Gold medal with an old-style vang with a couple of blocks in (which is what I still use).

I'm not knocking the turbo set-up. I think it's great because it allows women, kids and other people without the same upper-body strength as an adult male to trim the boat well. All I'mm saying is that most adult males without a turbo kit don't really have to worry.
 

gouvernail

Super Opinionated and Always Correct
Anyway, I am on my way out, with my one and only over priced 4 year old class sail to go for a sail, comfortable in the knowledge that the only blame for my painfully humbling placings lies firmly in the hands of the skipper.

Matt

Come on. He shares none of the blame. In fact he died last year on his 101st doggie birthday>>>
 

Chris123

New Member
You are just like Old Geezer, an anonymous poster. Why in the world would you think that your opinion on the running of the forum has any consequence?
So, after having left this board a while back for the greener pastures of the Sailing Anarchy dinghy forums, I thought I'd drop by to see how things are going.

In the kind of forum I'd like to support, the validity of an opinion would be judged on the basis of whether or not the opinion was well-reasoned, and not based on who posted it or whether or not they registered anonymously.

Merrily, I have a lot of respect for the volunteer time you are putting in here, but I often find your tone really offensive, and it is making this forum into something that is much less than it might otherwise be.

Just my personal opinion, worth whatever you want to make of it.
 
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