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Intensity Sails

sailchris

Member
how long do they last? Longer than a north sail, Hyde even, when sailed the same length of time in 15-20? and still has the same performance and bend characteristics as the 3.8oz sails
From what I have seen, there is no reason why current versions of so called "practice" Laser sails shouldn't last just as long as class legal Laser sails. It's not like the Laser class button provides magical stretch protection.

I think what i'm trying to say is that there is no such thing as a sail that is cheap that lasts forever, that is class legal. Being class legal has inherent costs involved in it. They may be too much, but if you are a class member, then you rally around and see if you can affect change.
That's what we are trying to do. As long as the class chooses one new design that will be legal to continue the tradition of strong one design racing, then why not try to produce a design that will be more durable. A more durable sail would result in closer racing (even if it is just a psychological effect) between those who can afford new sails often, and those who buy them infrequently.

The makers of practice sails have shown that the current sail design can be made and sold for about half the cost of a class legal sail even though they are small sailmakers without the manufacturing resources of North/Hyde.

I'm saying you should be happy that you can go sail against olympians and get away with it for as cheap as you do, any other sport where you want to compete against the upper echelon of that sport (football, the real football, baseball, track&field, skiing, curling, ANY OTHER SPORT), all we have to do is get a boat and pay regatta and class dues and show up at nationals, OCR, or any other regatta.
I am happy to be able to sail against Olympians...but they will always be beating me. More often than not I am trying to beat to other weekend warriors and local juniors. We are the ones who need a reasonably priced, more durable sail that is class legal (except those of us whose parents can afford to buy us $150 mainsheets).

I don't think laser sailing is so expensive that it is keeping people from getting into it.
No, it probably isn't (although there is certainly some impact of cost on the non-junior/non master group of sailors). You can definitely sail with old equipment and be reasonably competitive. But why not make it even better?
 

excollegesailor

New Member
Yeah, they can be built for less than half, but is the builder supporting the class at all? kicking any revenue back to the ILCA, which puts on events?

I asked and nobody answered, what is the average age of sails being used on the weekends. How many brand new sails are you sailing against? Most likely, if it is a serious sailor, he's saving his new sail for class events, and he's using his practice sail.

And you can buy slightly used sails, that are still competitive if you need a economical solution to getting sails. Also, if you're concerned about the degree of point you lose in old sails, chances are there are at least 2 other variables that are affecting whether you are gaining or losing on boats, specifically shifts and heel. and if you honestly think you need a 150 dollar mainsheet to be competitive, then the answer lies in your ideas that you can purchase parts to make you a better sailor.
 

Old Geezer

Member
Yeah, they can be built for less than half, but is the builder supporting the class at all? kicking any revenue back to the ILCA, which puts on events?
In North America at least, the builder is providing the class with direct financial support. Around $25,000 a year in the last few years according to the published accounts of ILCA-NA. But Vanguard is on record as saying they want to reduce the financial support they give the class.
 

SFBayLaser

Member
The makers of practice sails have shown that the current sail design can be made and sold for about half the cost of a class legal sail even though they are small sailmakers without the manufacturing resources of North/Hyde.
Don't forget that they are following a completely different supply model than the class legal sails... I'm willing to bet that within a few dollars the cost to produce an Intensity sail is the same as the cost to produce a North or Hyde sail with the difference in retail price due entirely to the number of hands touching the sail enroute to you (producer->North/Hyde->Vanguard/PSE/PSA->dealer).

Seeing a "practice" sail sell for less than half the price of a class legal sail, especially when it is claimed to be equivalent, is a bit painful. Still, we should remember that a lot of that extra money we pay for class legal sails does come back to us. ILCA gets about $12/sail (depending on exchange rate). Vanguard has been using most of its piece of the pie to support sailing all over North America, including direct support of ILCA-NA (A few years back Chip Johns even had a post on either TLF or the Laser list outlining what sorts of things they supported with the bulk of the money they made off of sails - e.g. next time you go to a regatta where Vanguard is one of the sponsors and/or has supplied a bunch of raffle items, this is where they get the money for that). And in most areas it is the dealers who are helping to support sailing on the local scene (which is a good reason why we should support them by buying from our local dealers first!).

Given the current supply structure, it is not obvious how to significantly lower the price of a class legal sail without changing the current supply system...
 

sailchris

Member
I asked and nobody answered, what is the average age of sails being used on the weekends. How many brand new sails are you sailing against? Most likely, if it is a serious sailor, he's saving his new sail for class events, and he's using his practice sail.
I don't know exactly, but there seem to be at least one or two sailors who break out a new sail for any given medium or light air regatta. Around here (MA and RI), it seems like pretty much everyone is using sails that are 1 year old or less.

And you can buy slightly used sails, that are still competitive if you need a economical solution to getting sails. Also, if you're concerned about the degree of point you lose in old sails, chances are there are at least 2 other variables that are affecting whether you are gaining or losing on boats, specifically shifts and heel.
I did buy a slightly used sail this season instead of buying a new one. It was a huge improvement over my old rag. With the old stretched out sail, people used to actually come up to me after racing to tell me that they could see that the draft was too far back.
And of course there are many other variables that affect my speed, but if I can remove one of them (the sail) from consideration, then why not?

and if you honestly think you need a 150 dollar mainsheet to be competitive, then the answer lies in your ideas that you can purchase parts to make you a better sailor.
I don't have a $150 mainsheet (that was sk8ingsailor)...my mainsheet is an orange piece of Marstron that is probably older than most of the other boats in the fleet.

The sail just seems to be the component that wears out more quickly than it should, is more expensive than it could be, and which could be improved. I like the simplicity of the Laser. When I was sailing Stars, the amount of tweaking that had to be done drove me nuts...I just want to get in the boat and be reasonably competitive without worrying about my upper shroud tension, the position of my chainplates, or whether I have the North jib instead of the Quantum jib. Just give everyone access to the same equipment, including a reasonably priced sail that doesn't degrade so quickly, and I will be happy.
 

excollegesailor

New Member
Well, it seems ironic that of the multiple variables that you can reduce, you want to spend 500 dollars on one, instead of a) hiking harder or b) tacking and sailing the lift and/or getting to clear air - both of which, last time I checked, are free?

More over, the cost of the sail isn't just about supporting the class either, it keeps the resale value up on your boat too. It keeps people who are selling 4 year old boats able to price them around brand new boats, because even if a sail is a couple of months old, it still performs well enough to be competitive. before i catch flak on this: http://laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=7120 - yes there are lots of other goodies, but the fact of the matter is it's a 2002 boat that the owner can fetch 4.5Gs for.

look on any used site, it's true.

What i gather from most people on the thread is that after 2 months, their sail has deteriorated to the point where they PERCEIVE they aren't competitive anymore. i haven't seen results or any tangible evidence this is true aside from lots of hot air about how much people pay.

How much of that is actual confidence. I'm sure people feel a lot better in a new sail, how much does that affect their performance, over the guy who has already thrown in the mental towel because he is sailing with a 2 month old sail? who as soon as he gets behind because of something, sail or not, gives up because his "2 month old rag" isn't going to get him back to the top of the fleet, how many times have you felt that way? And is it the honest truth, or are you coming up with excuses.

My grandfather always told me it's a poor workman that blames his tools.
 

GBR 134

Member
Something that strikes me as odd is that there is not any sort of market for more extreme laser sails... back in my skydiving days thay were making chutes oput of some sort of zero-porosity fabrics...

Perhaps a full-length batten mylar sail would kick the pants off the class legal one... perhaps it would also kick the pants off the maststep...
There is - Rooster UK do an 8.1 M Dacron Mylar sail that sits on a longer top section and standard bottom section. They are selling the complete rig for £ 350 in the UK and promoting racing for a 'New Class'

http://www.roostersailing.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=1&Product_Code=LIST+12&Category_Code=lpns
 

Attachments

SFBayLaser

Member
Well... I guess it is just not in my own experience that the class legal sails will only last one or two regattas before becoming useless. For example, my last "good" sail was used for nearly a full year of major events (for a total of some 25 days of hard racing, mostly in full hiking conditions, some approaching survival).

I'll profess to not having the highly calibrated eye that some have for sail shape... so I can imagine many people will see changes in the sail's shape that go unnoticed by me. I'm sure the draft moves back a bit, the leech is a bit looser, etc. On the other hand, What I do notice is that my personal performance depends more on how much time I have been spending on the water AND my current weight (I'm pretty slow downwind when over 200 lbs), as long as I have a "good" (ie not necessarily new) sail.

Still, I'll agree that if there are things we could do which might improve durability then we should be looking into doing them. I know that ILCA does have a list of things to explore with a goal of bringing those to the World Council meeting in Australia. Obviously, a cost-benefit analysis needs to be done since it may not be worth changing anything if, say, it doubles the price of the sail. And, of course, it would be best if any change to the sail did not result in noticeable gain in performance. But, just to be clear, I am NOT saying that there are any currently planned changes, or that there will be any changes to the sail, only that it is on ILCA's radar screen to investigate possibilities.

In general, I'm not in favor of a radical change to the Laser sail (and perhaps mast), that is going to immediately obsolete 190,000 boats, without a significant amount of research and discussion (and look at what happened with the Byte class for an example of rushing something like this through). Besides, if you are going to make such a radical change, that will require everyone racing to upgrade, then at some point you ought to start asking "what else should we be changing?" which, ultimately, means you ought to be designing a new boat. Well... good luck with that!

The Laser is what it is. This results in the best one design racing that you can possibly have with the minimum amount of hassle. Right now this doesn't seem to be broken so I'm not sure we are in need of any radical fixes.
 

sailchris

Member
Well, it seems ironic that of the multiple variables that you can reduce, you want to spend 500 dollars on one, instead of a) hiking harder or b) tacking and sailing the lift and/or getting to clear air - both of which, last time I checked, are free?
No, you don't get it. I don't want to spend $500 on a sail. But if I do buy one, I want it to be the most durable class legal sail that $500 can buy. And, I don't want a radical fix, or one that provides better off-the-shelf performance than the current sails...only better durability.

The mylar leech and bi-radial construction of the Rooster 8.1 sail is the kind of thinking that I like.



More over, the cost of the sail isn't just about supporting the class either, it keeps the resale value up on your boat too.
I would argue that an used sail is an unknown quantity in the price of a used boat. It might add value, it might not be worth anything.

What i gather from most people on the thread is that after 2 months, their sail has deteriorated to the point where they PERCEIVE they aren't competitive anymore. i haven't seen results or any tangible evidence this is true aside from lots of hot air about how much people pay.
If you pay attention to sail shape, you start to notice that the leech is fluttering more than it did when it was new, and that the cunningham isn't pulling the draft forward like it used to. The changes might not affect speed much, but shouldn't they happen less quickly?

How much of that is actual confidence. I'm sure people feel a lot better in a new sail, how much does that affect their performance, over the guy who has already thrown in the mental towel because he is sailing with a 2 month old sail? who as soon as he gets behind because of something, sail or not, gives up because his "2 month old rag" isn't going to get him back to the top of the fleet, how many times have you felt that way? And is it the honest truth, or are you coming up with excuses.
How many times do I have to say that I am not in it for winning? I just want to have a sail that stays nice for longer than they do right now. I used to feel like my sail was a factor when I sailed with my old sail, but that wasn't a "two month rag," it was more like a 5-year rag.

My grandfather always told me it's a poor workman that blames his tools.
But, if you build a better mousetrap...
 

excollegesailor

New Member
Shouldn't they happen less quickly according to who? What golden standard says that 500 dollars worth of sail should get you this much? It's clear we aren't just paying for the sail, you are paying for everything that comes with being in the laser class - as proved by the independent sail makers.

How long does the rooster sail last? 700 dollars for the rig, plus 500 for the sail.

Why do you race if you aren't in it to win? why not buy an intensity sail and bum around and not race. then you don't have to worry about it, your sail would blow out in the same time, and you spent less money on it. If you aren't in it to win, then why do you even care if your sail blows out, just use your 5 year old one, that way you aren't spending any more money, and you don't have to worry about your finishes

you would argue? I'm pretty sure any racer sees a practice sail as a value because if they get a new sail, and a practice sail, they can save their race sail (read, save the new sail which saves value of you not having to buy a new one earlier) by using the practice sail to practice and race in weekend one day series.

Exactly, so i'm starting to gather that at around 2 months, people start complaining about their sail, whether or not it is actually going bad.

500 dollars for a sail is CHEAP relative to every other vessel on the water that you can fit in, and can race competitively at the numbers that the laser gets, in the organizational competency that the laser class provides, and the amount of class organized regattas that happen every year.

sure you have independent sail makers making them for less than class legal sails - but you can't race any ILCA event with them, and they still blow out as quickly as class legal sails, and you still need a class legal sail to sail ILCA events when you want. But again, if you aren't in it to win, then your sail shouldn't matter.
 

sailchris

Member
Shouldn't they happen less quickly according to who? What golden standard says that 500 dollars worth of sail should get you this much? It's clear we aren't just paying for the sail, you are paying for everything that comes with being in the laser class - as proved by the independent sail makers.
Nothing you say should prevent the class from eventually approving a more durable sail design.

How long does the rooster sail last? 700 dollars for the rig, plus 500 for the sail.
I don't know, but the $700 for the rig is only necessary because the Rooster 8.1 sail is bigger and needs a new bottom section. If a bigger sail (more materials) can be produced for $500 with a mylar leech and much smaller production runs than regular sails, then why not a normal size sail with a mylar leech, produced in the quantities of current sails, for less than $500?

Why do you race if you aren't in it to win?
I race for fun. I win sometimes, but most of the time I am out there getting my ass kicked.

why not buy an intensity sail and bum around and not race. then you don't have to worry about it, your sail would blow out in the same time, and you spent less money on it.
Because racing is fun.

If you aren't in it to win, then why do you even care if your sail blows out, just use your 5 year old one, that way you aren't spending any more money, and you don't have to worry about your finishes
Because I want to be competitive, even if I am not winning.

you would argue? I'm pretty sure any racer sees a practice sail as a value because if they get a new sail, and a practice sail, they can save their race sail (read, save the new sail which saves value of you not having to buy a new one earlier) by using the practice sail to practice and race in weekend one day series.
The value of another practice sail is still an unknown quantity since most people already have a bunch of sails at various levels of wear.

500 dollars for a sail is CHEAP relative to every other vessel on the water that you can fit in, and can race competitively at the numbers that the laser gets, in the organizational competency that the laser class provides, and the amount of class organized regattas that happen every year.
I know. So why not a better designed sail for the same price with some money still going to the class?

sure you have independent sail makers making them for less than class legal sails - but you can't race any ILCA event with them, and they still blow out as quickly as class legal sails, and you still need a class legal sail to sail ILCA events when you want. But again, if you aren't in it to win, then your sail shouldn't matter.
No. I want a sail that could eventually be approved as class legal, and that is more durable. Besides, my position has always been that using a non-class legal sail in any event against other Lasers is cheating.
And, with all due respect, my sail still matters whether I am racing for 1st place in the Olympic trials or top half of the fleet in a club championship. If you are "in it to win" at every regatta you attend, then more power to you, but 9 out of 10 sailors at every regatta are not "in it to win" it, so there's no need for the elitist attitude.
 
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Ross B

Guest
I love how excollegesailor comes in here with 8 posts under his belt, and acts all high and mighty, some serious &ouchebaggery going on here
 

Merrily

Administrator
I love how excollegesailor comes in here with 8 posts under his belt, and acts all high and mighty, some serious &ouchebaggery going on here
No, you don't, Ross. Anyone can come in here as a newbie and have an intelligent discussion. And what is &ouchebaggery?

Also, if it's true that excollegsailor is a Vanguard rep, I'm glad to see it and welcome him.
 

excollegesailor

New Member
high and mighty? i'm tired of laser sailors whining about the cost of everything. all 8 posts? i'm sorry, i didn't realize i had to wasted most of my time on this forum before i became "qualified" to post Ross. I should clearly bow to you with your 781 posts, oh lord of the internet sailing forum.

Furthermore, I don't want to come off pompous at all, i'm just trying to show that there is some serious misguided anger here over things that people can and can not control. Don't worry, i won't waste any more breath.

I guess i've been outed eh? well, good luck to you guys. I hope you all know most of this has been in Jest. Sailchris, good use of the internets. I've been trying to figure out who you were for a while. Anyways, i don't want to get fired so i better go. Good luck figuring out a sail, and if you do, let us know, maybe we can help you out!
 

sailchris

Member
i'm tired of laser sailors whining about the cost of everything.
Not everything...although some of the plastic parts are pretty expensive for what they are too...just sails.

Furthermore, I don't want to come off pompous at all, i'm just trying to show that there is some serious misguided anger here over things that people can and can not control. Don't worry, i won't waste any more breath.
I apologize if I sounded angry. I am not angry. We are just debating things here.

I guess i've been outed eh? well, good luck to you guys. I hope you all know most of this has been in Jest. Sailchris, good use of the internets. I've been trying to figure out who you were for a while.
If you figure it out, send me an email.
 

Chainsaw

Brmmm Brmmm
Is there a way of measuring a sail, that does not involve subjective elements, to tell when a sail is "blown out". A simple measurement or formula. Line in the sand ...Sail ok or ...sail should be replaced.
 
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Ross B

Guest
No, you don't, Ross. Anyone can come in here as a And what is &ouchebaggery?

Also, if it's true that excollegsailor is a Vanguard rep, I'm glad to see it and welcome him.
Merrily add a "d" instead of the "&" and you'll get it.

actually here: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=douchebaggery

I think it would be great to have a rep from Vanguard on here, just needs to be a bit nicer, and remember who you're representing. Word gets out who you are, and Vanguard might not think highly of you.


Furthermore, I don't want to come off pompous at all, i'm just trying to show that there is some serious misguided anger here over things that people can and can not control. Don't worry, i won't waste any more breath.
Keep workin on that, your still coming off as a tad bit pompous. No one is really "angry" over the sails, we realize it's all we have right now, and we have to deal with it. We just want a better value for our money.
 

Deimos

Member
And, of course, it would be best if any change to the sail did not result in noticeable gain in performance. But, just to be clear, I am NOT saying that there are any currently planned changes, or that there will be any changes to the sail, only that it is on ILCA's radar screen to investigate possibilities.
I agree - important any new design sail is of the same performance as an existing design (new "new" vs new "existing"). Thus no performance gain to purchasing. Rather a longevity gain. My own experience of hi-tech sails is that they last no longer than but tend to fall apart before they lose their shape. Thus, even though your sail might need replacing just as often, until it finally died it would still have a competitive shape. Would effectively put people on a more even basis which is a major aspect to the Laser itself.

One aspect to new sails improving performance is that the helm cannot sit there being angry at this terrible sail letting him down (when it has nothing to do with that sail). Means you can start to recognise your own failures and cannot blame anything else. If you are not pointing then it is your fault and nothing else's. Psychological (and it gets me just as much as others).


In general, I'm not in favor of a radical change to the Laser sail (and perhaps mast), that is going to immediately obsolete 190,000 boats, without a significant amount of research and discussion (and look at what happened with the Byte class for an example of rushing something like this through). Besides, if you are going to make such a radical change, that will require everyone racing to upgrade, then at some point you ought to start asking "what else should we be changing?" which, ultimately, means you ought to be designing a new boat. Well... good luck with that!
I think (hope) that most people recognise the Laser and expect that for a large percentage the strict one design aspect is part of the appeal of the class. My feel for this thread is that it is more about people wanting to reduce their running costs. OK you get the occasional person who wants to start changing everything and make a new boat but I'm confidant the majority prefer the strict one-design aspect.


Footnote:
Personally I cannot see how the number of posts somebody has made affects how valid their opinions are ?

Ian
 

Chainsaw

Brmmm Brmmm
LOL :D I like definiton #4 but #7 is even better! :D


I think it would be great to have a rep from Vanguard on here, just needs to be a bit nicer, and remember who you're representing. Word gets out who you are, and Vanguard might not think highly of you.
Strange that Vanguard can have a rep here and be welcome but another company's reps posts are being deleted left right and centre. LOL


Keep workin on that, your still coming off as a tad bit pompous. No one is really "angry" over the sails, we realize it's all we have right now, and we have to deal with it. We just want a better value for our money.

I don't find it pompous. Everyone speaks differently, and even if it were I'd just laugh. :D
 
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Ross B

Guest
Strange that Vanguard can have a rep here and be welcome but another company's reps posts are being deleted left right and centre. LOL
I know, funny huh. Thats The Laser Forum political powers at work.
 

Merrily

Administrator
Strange that Vanguard can have a rep here and be welcome but another company's reps posts are being deleted left right and centre. LOL
It's not strange at all. Not all of StylusCentral's posts are deleted, only the ones where he is posting for free advertising. I think that's a bit greedy when this whole thread is entitled for his company and he's getting a plenty big freebie. Also, I only just learned that excollegesailor is a Vanguard rep along with you. Do you think that it's appropriate that I delete his posts? I don't think so.

Well, I had to ask on that definition. It's inappropriate here, Ross.

Everybody just stay calm. It's an interesting thread otherwise.

BTW, Sailchris, you outed excollegesailor. Who are you?
 
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Ross B

Guest
Well, I had to ask on that definition. It's inappropriate here, Ross.

That's why I didn't fully spell the word, and only provided a link to the definition, and didn't type it out, so one had to work to get it. Surly not actually saying it and just alluding to it is fine for the Powers At Be here?

What I said, or didn't say for that matter, can't be any worse than what went on here?:http://www.laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=7428
 

Merrily

Administrator
That's why I didn't fully spell the word, and only provided a link to the definition, and didn't type it out, so one had to work to get it. Surly not actually saying it and just alluding to it is fine for the Powers At Be here?

What I said, or didn't say for that matter, can't be any worse than what went on here?:http://www.laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=7428
I'd rather you didn't allude to it at all, especially in a serious thread. No need for name calling. We are going for civilized discourse here. The one that you showed a link for is has silly in the title, after all. BTW, you did spell it out in the definition link, not subtle.
 
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Ross B

Guest
I'd rather you didn't allude to it at all, especially in a serious thread. No need for name calling. We are going for civilized discourse here. The one that you showed a link for is has silly in the title, after all. BTW, you did spell it out in the definition link, not subtle.
Now we're just pickin bones here, as I did not specifically write the URL for the page, as it was provided by the site. But I get your general idea, and I think it's just time we move on from this little shindig we're having here. Did I mention I love you Merrily and all you do for us here?:D
 

Merrily

Administrator
Now we're just pickin bones here, as I did not specifically write the URL for the page, as it was provided by the site. But I get your general idea, and I think it's just time we move on from this little shindig we're having here. Did I mention I love you Merrily and all you do for us here?:D
Take some responsibility for putting the URL on this site, and we'll get on well. I'm glad you love me, Ross. :rolleyes:
 

Old Geezer

Member
Great debate. And fine by me that a Vanguard Customer Service Rep is participating.

However, I do think it would be a good idea if, when we are discussing issues in which certain companies have a vested interest, the representatives of those companies should identify their affiliation. IMHO it should actually be an official policy of a forum like this.

By the way, is said rep speaking officially on behalf of his/her employer or is he/she just expressing a personal view (albeit inevitably biased because of his/her employment)?

Also, I happen to know that another poster on this forum (who occasionally gets involved in defending the status quo of the current Laser sail commercial arrangements) is actually an employee of North Sails. I'm not going to out him. Just think that folk should out of common decency declare their affiliations when it's a subject that affects their employment or income.

I am not employed by North Sails or Hyde Sails or Vanguard or PSE. Actually, I am unemployed. My opinions have no weight according to Merrily. Over on the Sunfish forum they say I am clueless. Oh well. At least I only speak for myself.
 

Chainsaw

Brmmm Brmmm
It's not strange at all. Not all of StylusCentral's posts are deleted, only the ones where he is posting for free advertising. I think that's a bit greedy when this whole thread is entitled for his company and he's getting a plenty big freebie. Also, I only just learned that excollegesailor is a Vanguard rep along with you. Do you think that it's appropriate that I delete his posts? I don't think so.

Well, I had to ask on that definition. It's inappropriate here, Ross.

Everybody just stay calm. It's an interesting thread otherwise.

BTW, Sailchris, you outed excollegesailor. Who are you?
LOL. Rob_B started this thread, how is it started for StylusCentral's benefit? Conspiracy theories anyone? LOL

No wait, Rob-B must be undercover agent for intensity sails! The Horror of it all! LOL

Guess what, sailchris knows of people in business who sell laser related stuff, so do I, so does Ross... Delete us all, our opinions are free advertising!

You've never been an impartial moderator, but this kind of thing is pretty funny.
 
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Ross B

Guest
Guess what, sailchris knows of people in business who sell laser related stuff, so do I, so does Ross... Delete us all, our opinions are free advertising!

You've never been an impartial moderator, but this kind of thing is pretty funny.
Yea, I know too many people in high places, boo hooo me:(

and now I'm sponsored, so I'm incredibly biased, the horror!!
 

Merrily

Administrator
LOL. Rob_B started this thread, how is it started for StylusCentral's benefit? Conspiracy theories anyone? LOL

No wait, Rob-B must be undercover agent for intensity sails! The Horror of it all! LOL

Guess what, sailchris knows of people in business who sell laser related stuff, so do I, so does Ross... Delete us all, our opinions are free advertising!

You've never been an impartial moderator, but this kind of thing is pretty funny.
I don't claim to be or want to be an impartial moderator.

I'm glad you are enjoying yourself. I realize that StylusCentral aka Intensity Sails did not start this thread. He's still getting plenty of free advertising from it, and I'd like it if he'd show some appreciation by not wasting my time by posting illegal ads.
 

sailchris

Member
BTW, Sailchris, you outed excollegesailor. Who are you?
Unlike excollegesailor, I don't list my real name in my public profile, but if you look hard enough you'll find out who I am. Plus, I only "outed" his relevant employment background, which is public information. My employment background is irrelevant except, perhaps, in the threads where I have made oblique references to it.

I also find it strange that you removed StylusCentral's postings of price listings that were cited solely as evidence of relative pricing of sails, but then left my direct links to the Intensity sails webpage. Neither of these posts were commercially motivated when taken in the context of this thread. I don't think the terms of service of this forum limit commercial postings (except for spam, which this was not), so please follow the TOS and be consistent in your enforcement
 

Old Geezer

Member
I realize that StylusCentral aka Intensity Sails did not start this thread. He's still getting plenty of free advertising from it, and I'd like it if he'd show some appreciation by not wasting my time by posting illegal ads.
To be fair to Mr Intensity, I don't think his post was motivated by a desire to get free advertising. He was simply pointing out that the comparison of prices between Laser sails and other class sails was somewhat flawed because all those other classes also have sailmakers who pass on high markups to their customers.

Mr Intensity was pointing out that it is possible to sell sails for Lasers, 420s, JY15s whatever at around $200 instead of at over $500. As such I thought it was an important contribution to this debate and I am sorry that our official administrator felt fit to delete it.

If Mr Intensity has found a way to make inexpensive durable sails for all those classes (including the Laser) then ILCA should hire him as a consultant to work out how to move to a situation where we have class-legal inexpensive durable sails.

I am not employed by Mr Intensity though I have used some of his products. I am officially clueless and my opinion has no weight.
 

sailchris

Member
It's not strange at all. Not all of StylusCentral's posts are deleted, only the ones where he is posting for free advertising. I think that's a bit greedy when this whole thread is entitled for his company and he's getting a plenty big freebie.
I think this comment is defamatory and also libelous, and therefore in violation of the TOS.
 
R

Ross B

Guest
I think this comment is defamatory and also libelous, and therefore in violation of the TOS.
You think thats bad? Look at #3 on the TOS. So much for free speech.... *checks flight plans to China....*

"3. TLF is dedicated to allowing free speech. However, Spamming or transmitting content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy or confidentiality or copyrights, hateful, or racially,
ethnically objectionable is not permitted and can result in the suspension or deletion of your membership in TLF. The severity of the measures will be determined on a case by case basis. Any specific rules of enforcement will be made public before they are applied."


And thankfully #5 is applied pretty loosely....

"5. Please keep the discussion on topic within its thread. For example, do not post about mast step repairs in a thread about frostbiting. TLF reserves the right to move or delete off topic comments. To Register and post on TLF you must include your real name and a valid email address. TLF reserves the right to change this document at any time."
 

Bradley

Administrator
Staff member
Come on Folks, Let's not be ridiculous here please. There are several issues at play and I would like to address all of them.

First, posts will be deleted, at our discretion, that lean on the side of promoting a product that is not a paid sponsor of the forum when the post(s) are made by the marketer of that product.

Second, post count doesn't limit anyone from offering constructive comments. I find Ross B.'s post to be very inappropriate, not because the word was obscene but because it was directed towards a single member of the forum.

Third, The TOS are what they are. Obviously, there is a lot of leeway in their interpretation, but they were written that way on purpose. Every effort is made to avoid deleting posts except when absolutely necessary. Luckily, for many of you, we don't reject every member who signs up without a name or one that doesn't appear to be real. We could implement a system like GMail and many others use that require one to authenticate themselves to their telephone number via text message but I don't find it to be worth the cost or effort.

Fourth, this came up mostly in the very early stages of this thread, but comments on class legal sails are NOT limited to class members. This is a public discussion forum separately held from any class body and thus all are invited to participate in any discussion.

Finally, Old Geezer, at least the folks over at TSF got you perfectly figured out! :p

Lets get this discussion back on topic now please.

Best Regards,
 
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