Heavy wind question

P

public225

mark in atlanta
the question -- in heavy wind, is it better to detune the sails to keep the boat flat or let the sail luff a bit??

here are the specifics -- I am 53, 145 pounds, sailing on buzzards bay. radial sail. I do not race but have all of the most recent riggging upgrades. boat is 5 years or so old

the last few weeks -- we have had steady winds to the tune of 15-18-20 mph early and mid afternoon) with gusts to 25.

so, I have the cunnigham pulled as tight as I can (grommit to or just below the top of the boom), the outhaul as tight as it can be, vang tight -- but I need to loosen it up some on a reach as the end of the boom hits the rolling 2-4 foot waves. hiking out as far as is possible. t I even have the centerboard raised a bit at times on a beat

I cannot keep the boat flat

my kids use the 4.7 sail -- a few days ago, I could not even keep the 4.7 flat

so -- is it "better" to sail with everything as tight as possible and then when all else fails, let the sail luff, or loosen things a bit and let the sail luff even more

just curious

mark

ps -- it was awesome sailing
 
You need to learn to play the mainsheet and sail lower in the grove. Dump the mainsheet as the pressure increases (i.e. before you're over powered) so you keep the boat flat and pull the mainsheet back on as the pressure decreases, it's real balancing act. Luffing/pinching the boat works well in flat water, but using this technique can lose boat speed if you hit a wave poorly, which generally isn't an issue in flat water. So waves it's important not to lose momentum, so it's generally better to point lower, steer through the waves and dump the main as required to keep the boat moving forward at all times.

I'll also add that at the top end wind speeds, it can help easing the vang a touch, as it keeps you out of the irons, gives a little clearance for the boom from the waves etc, but that might be above 25knots for you.
 
How far forward are you in the cockpit? I find that when I get even with the dagger or almost in front of it I have an easier time staying flat. I also tend to let out just a little and pull in if I feel the loss of speed.

I had a blast the other day in 20mph winds (radial) but because I had the boat flat + hiked out all the way, I was having waves break over my head as the boat sailed down the back side of waves.
 
AlanD said:
You need to learn to play the mainsheet and sail lower in the grove. Dump the mainsheet as the pressure increases (i.e. before you're over powered) so you keep the boat flat and pull the mainsheet back on as the pressure decreases, it's real balancing act...

...so it's generally better to point lower, steer through the waves and dump the main as required to keep the boat moving forward at all times.

...also ... at the top end wind speeds... easing the vang a touch...
Click to expand...


yep -- these are things I do -- just verifying.

Also, I sit so far back given the heavy chop I have to keep my BACK knee slightly bent so I can get the the end of the tiller just under it (not the tiller extension) -- my feet are really BEHIND the hiking strap - to the point of being supported by the hiking strap rope

what a blast!!
 
reddin11 said:
How far forward are you in the cockpit? I find that when I get even with the dagger or almost in front of it I have an easier time staying flat.
Click to expand...


in heavy chop -- does not the front end, nose dive into and under the waves??? I thought sitting as far back in the cockpit (as close to behind the traveler clam cleat) as possible was the way to go
 
Ideally you want to sit as far forward as possible without burying the nose. Your on top of the cleats if you have them in most conditions and move backwards from there but probably no further back than half way down the cockpit.
 
yeah, as AlanD has explained. The widest part of the deck is around the front of the dagger and gets the most leverage to keep the boat upright. When you sit back, you actually put more of the hull in the water and get a lot less leverage for righting. I do sit back when going downwind and get up on plane, but not across or upwind.


The angle that the waves were rolling in, I was hitting at about a 30 degree angle and the bow almost never went into the water. The waves were close enough together that as the boat was sailing down the wave the next one was crashing over me. I don't hike out crazy like some kids do, just far enough to get my body in line with my hips and legs and get my shoulders as far out as possible.
 
public225 said:
the question -- in heavy wind, is it better to detune the sails to keep the boat flat or let the sail luff a bit??

here are the specifics -- I am 53, 145 pounds, sailing on buzzards bay. radial sail. I do not race but have all of the most recent riggging upgrades. boat is 5 years or so old

the last few weeks -- we have had steady winds to the tune of 15-18-20 mph early and mid afternoon) with gusts to 25.

so, I have the cunnigham pulled as tight as I can (grommit to or just below the top of the boom), the outhaul as tight as it can be, vang tight -- but I need to loosen it up some on a reach as the end of the boom hits the rolling 2-4 foot waves. hiking out as far as is possible. t I even have the centerboard raised a bit at times on a beat

I cannot keep the boat flat

my kids use the 4.7 sail -- a few days ago, I could not even keep the 4.7 flat

so -- is it "better" to sail with everything as tight as possible and then when all else fails, let the sail luff, or loosen things a bit and let the sail luff even more

just curious

mark

ps -- it was awesome sailing
Click to expand...


racing is simply going somewhere next to a bunch of other sailors. The very best way to figure out what works best is to sail next to somebody else...or a group . Better stioll?? A friendly helpful group. Racers tend to gather around new racers just to make certain the new racers feel welcome. One way we do that is to offer ( key is offer not give) advice to those new arrivals and....Your "which works better?" Question is the perfect sort of question for all those guys who want to see how perfectly they can negotiate a racecourse.

Please understand. For the most part, sailboat racing is an attempt to trim perfectly, sit in the right place and go the right way with respect to the shifts.

the race is not so much one boat VS the rest but ( sorta like playing golf) each boat VS the conditions and course with the person who makes the fewest bad decisions as the winner.

You cannot really make you boat go FASTER. All you can do is make it go correctly .

And making it go correctly in the right direction is endlessly tricky.


Please..Try racing..And teh dinner or shore party after....You have all the right questions that tell me "This person would enjoy the game."

As for enjoying the people...Every group has somebody you like in it..and probably afew you woun't seek out again.

Visit a fleet!!!
 
The outhaul should be max 5-10cm at the boom cleat for upwind and a little deaper for downwind and reaching. Upwind lots of vang (more than block to block) and cunningham.

You won't be able to get on a plane if the boat is healed over, so keep the boat flat and as you start to plane it will be easier to control. Reaching is fast and fun in heavy winds.
 
>> Upwind lots of vang (more than block to block) and cunningham.


so -- this is something I am VERY confused about

the "vang adds power" is something I have read -- but I have ALSO read that if being overpowered, tighten the vang even more

so -- this says that there is a point where MORE vang depowers the sail, but somewhere between "more and less" vang ADDS power

right??

I have tried this in the water -- but am unsure as to the results. at times it seems to be true -- at others not
 
Pulling on more vang will always depower the sail. It flattens the head and pulls the draft back in the sail, which then opens the leech. In the wind strength you are describing, you should have a lot of vang on. In fact, you should have a lot of everything on, then as AlanD says, ease the sheet to keep the boat flat. This won't work unless you have plenty of vang on though - with a loose vang, easing the mainsheet will power up the sail.

I've never sailed a radial, but my understanding is that the sail needs a lot of vang in the light stuff too, otherwise the sail is way too deep at the luff.

And Gouvernail is spot on - join a fleet, and get racing! Its the best way to learn how to sail the boat faster, and is heaps of fun. You're really competing against yourself, you're just doing it in company.
 
To add.

The amount of vang tension will vary. If you're sailing block to block in windy conditions, you just need to pull on the vang slightly more than pulling the slack out, this tension will increase to some extent as you try de-powing the sail. However, if you're dumping sail, you need to carry a lot of vang, so that the boom goes out sideways when you ease the mainsheet. In extreme conditions you might need to ease a touch of vang to avoid going into irons.

For me those variations kick in the following wind conditons (aprox) and some variations will occur when sailing in flat, choppy or in a swell

5-11 knots: mainsheet eased - slack pulled out of vang for the mainsheet tension
12-17 knots: block to block - slack pulled out
18-30 knots: dumping sail - significant amount of vang
30+ *: potential irons situation - vang slightly eased

*I've sailed lasers upto 50 knots
 
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