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Heart Rate Monitor

rippa

Member
Does rule 22 allow the use of a heart rate monitor during racing? (Watch Kontides interview at 00:44 and 03:24.)
 
I think not given the simple fact that everything electronic that is not mentioned is not allowed.. ... But I do use one but make sure I cannot see it during a race so I cannot have any advantage form it (if at all possible). Always nice to see afterwards that a day Laser racing is similar in calories burned as running a marathon....
 
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LaLi

Well-Known Member
Watch Kontides interview at 00:44 and 03:24.
A link to that interview would be nice :rolleyes:

But anyway, this is a grey area. The rules say "Any use of electronic equipment not specifically allowed in the rules is prohibited unless modified in the sailing instructions." Does "use" cover plain recording of data with which you don't do anything during the race itself? (And I think it's not even entirely clear if this applies only to the boat, and not the sailor.)
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
My personal opinion s a former IM for the class is that it is not grey at all. The heart rate monitor is collecting data, it is in use and hence illegal. Just because you don't look at the data until later on is not a valid argument for saying it is not in use.
 

rippa

Member
Many compass watches allowed under 22(d) have a heart rate monitor connection function as well and thus make it possible to illegally check heart rate while racing.
Maybe one should not take off his rash vest under the watchful eye of the Executive Secretary Emeritus ;)
 
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I sailed a masters event a few years back with one sailor a severe Diabetic. His Laser came with, and my memory lapses, either a unit that reported to shore that he had stopped moving and required rescue, or a unit that reported blood sugar to shore.

Seemed to me to be a great idea to allow all to have a go

Steve
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
People in the background are wearing them.
Damn I feel stupid for not noticing at first! Anyway, the facts are: 1) It's a fairly small part of the boat park that we see, and for three min only, and there are two of these things visible. It's unlikely they were the only ones in use in that fleet. 2) The guys wearing them show them openly - they didn't have to take their shirts off right there for everyone (including the measurers!) to see. 3) It's a World Championship regatta, so if these things are checked anywhere at all, it's here. On the other hand, things like clearly illegal control systems have been allowed at this level before. But at the very least, those guys wearing their straps obviously genuinely believe that they're not doing anything questionable.
 
Interesting to note that most of today's heart rate monitors come equipped with a build in gps.... very hard to get one without. only the very low end do not have that and i would not expect these guys to have something low end ...
 

Jan van Haarst

New Member
So according to the rules, use of onboard camera's and GPS trackers is also illegal.
This means that the last Olympics were in violation as well :

I would think that having electronics on board that aren't used during the race should be allowed.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
So according to the rules, use of onboard camera's and GPS trackers is also illegal.
This means that the last Olympics were in violation as well :
They have also never had sail numbers at the Olympics and they are mandatory. Here has never been a class legal Laser at the Olympics including going back to 1996 in Atlanta.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
They have also never had sail numbers at the Olympics and they are mandatory.
Same with most Youth Worlds that I've seen. The rationale behind it is that if there's only one boat from each country, the national letters is all you need to identify them. How that works legally I don't know.

But Alan, what's your take on people openly showing equipment that you think is illegal, at a World Championship? What do you think happened here? Just sloppy rule enforcement, an actual interpretation allowing them, or something else?
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
Sloppy enforcement. Part of the issue when I was doing the job was that all the other IMs were also IJs,. For that reason I didn't get any gigs outside Aus/NZ, as it they didn't want to pay to get someone to regattas whose main role finished before the regatta started. However the IJs aren't interested in policing the class rules on the water or the boat park. From my observations you could tell a competitor to change something and the would, but they would change it back by the time they reached he start line and really you can only protest someone if they raced with something illegal.

It's also not helped by someone like Jean Luc whose first language is not English, so there is an issue with rule interpretation. Paul Milson the previous World Measurer was very inconsistent with his application of the rules, but people jumped when he said illegal.

I also suppose other factors have come into play, such as the higher stakes involved being an Olympic Class and hence more money to be made even just by getting Olympic selection, coaches, etc. The availability of technology, the seeming availability of illegal equipment both replica stuff, but also the electronics etc.
 
Fully agree that this is not allowed under the rules. The only thing i personally dislike is that i wear my garmin while racing on the track and cycling but not while sailing my laser....

Maybe someday... i mean we can now use an electronic compas..
 

thieuster

Active Member
A very useful thread!. I sent the link to my son who's in Dziwnow this week for the U21 Eurpeans. His first reply: "Really, I am at the harbour and I've spotted at least 10 guys and girls wearing one!" (Granted, that was training. The regatta starts today).

Menno
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
All I can say is the general level of cheating and that is what it is, has increased since the class went Olympic.

I've seen skippers rig their boats illegally on 3 consecutive days at world championships, being told for the first two days to change it (which they did as they launched) but still trying to get away with it on the third day. It just wasn't individuals but whole national squad's
 
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Not saying that i endorse breaking the rules but if it happens more often it is maybe time the get more dialog going on between those who apparently think that a specific rule is hampering them and the rule makers. An update might prevent the problems in the future.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
I've seen skippers rig their boats illegally on 3 consecutive days at world championships, being told for the first two days to change it (which they did as they launched) but still trying to get away with it on the third day. It just wasn't individuals but whole national squad's
Not asking which nations :D But what rules did they break? Just curious.

All I can say is the general level of cheating and that is what it is, has increased since the class went Olympic.
So, twenty-seven years ago things were better :rolleyes: (The class has really been Olympic longer than it was non-Olympic.)

_
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
Not saying that i endorse breaking the rules but if it happens more often it is maybe time the get more dialog going on between those who apparently think that a specific rule is hampering them and the rule makers. An update might prevent the problems in the future.

There is a procedure for that. See the ILCA website.
But be patient :(
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
Outhaul rules.

The issue is probably more associated with the changes in the rigging systems and the increased availability of electronics. But coaches have a lit to answer for as certain issues have become systemic in my opinion.
 
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