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#41
---snip---
Of course if the builders dropped the price of a sail I would be happy. But if the builders are making such huge profits from the sails, why are they allegedly having trouble paying their bills? It has to be one or the other.
No it doesn't - there are many ways to burn through cash, not to mention that LP has to have the largest product line of any boat builder that I can recall, and perhaps profits from Lasers are propping up some of the other products..
 

Rob B

Active Member
#42
No it doesn't - there are many ways to burn through cash, not to mention that LP has to have the largest product line of any boat builder that I can recall, and perhaps profits from Lasers are propping up some of the other products..
Ding, ding, ding!!! We have a winner. If you mismanage your brand by diluting yor product line too much the overhead required to build 20 different boats, (of which only 3-5 really sell) compared to a slimmed down "core" product line will kill you. It's called assets and liabilities. Take a look at GM and how much they've trimmed down the product line and are now actually turning a profit.
 

Rob B

Active Member
#43
e) yet still addresses the core problems with the standard sail, in particular produces a sail that people think is worth the money they are spending on it.

This is the core of the issue.

People will pay for a product that lasts.
 
#44
Not everyone agrees with that point of view. The builder/dealers who are holding inventory would, but any sailor who only has an older rag (I guess we can say anything more then 4 regattas old) it shouldn't matter one bit

In a way, that thinking just keeps us stuck in the 1970's
The sails do not wear out as quickly as lots on here would try to make us all believe.

I raced yesterday at my club with a sail that is about 3 years old. It did 2 seasons of regattas/opens before becoming my club sail. I'll still use if for the odd open if need be as it still goes well. In the race yesterday I finished 1st radial and 2nd laser (3rd on the water but got the guy in front on handicap). The 2 full rigs are both good sailors (the leader was top 10 at the nationals last year and he wasn't miles ahead, just too far for my handicap allowance, and the guy in second place is no slouch either). One of the other radials is attending the masters worlds this year so again is not slow. If the sails are soo bad I should have no chance of competing against these guys.

My sails usually last me about 4 years before I bin them. 2 years regatta use and the another 2 years club/training use. Yes they are absolutely knackered by the end of this but I don't expect any sail to last longer than that the amount I use them.
 
#47
The sails do not wear out as quickly as lots on here would try to make us all believe.


My sails usually last me about 4 years before I bin them. 2 years regatta use and the another 2 years club/training use. Yes they are absolutely knackered by the end of this but I don't expect any sail to last longer than that the amount I use them.

Hello... RADIAL!... Completely different animal.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
#48
We should explain why it's so different.

I suspect it's from the way the panels are cut and sown together. The way the threads run allows the loads to be transferred better which decreases the amount of deformation that occurs to them over a period of time. In addition, the radial sail requires less cunningham, vang and mainsheet tension than the standard sail to obtain a good sail shape. It's probably part of the reason why a least one of the prototype standard sails has a radial cut.
 

Rob B

Active Member
#49
We should explain why it's so different.

I suspect it's from the way the panels are cut and sown together. The way the threads run allows the loads to be transferred better which decreases the amount of deformation that occurs to them over a period of time. In addition, the radial sail requires less cunningham, vang and mainsheet tension than the standard sail to obtain a good sail shape. It's probably part of the reason why a least one of the prototype standard sails has a radial cut.
I saw the full sized radial cut prototype and really liked it! Can anyone estimate how much longer it's gonna be until the class gets to vote on a new sail?
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
#50
I saw the full sized radial cut prototype and really liked it! Can anyone estimate how much longer it's gonna be until the class gets to vote on a new sail?
Never, it's not an issue that the class votes on, we only vote on changes to the class rules and not changes to the technical specifications. As long as the technical committee / World Council (and now ISAF) approve it, the builders can change the sails when ever they wish from my understanding. It's doubtful that any change will occur until after the next Olympics, but I don't think a change would have a significant impact even 12 months out.
 

gouvernail

Active Member
Thread starter #51
Isn't it amazin how some of those who ahve posted above just brush off "nothing until after the Olympics" as though there is more than one sailor in every country who is impacted by the shape of the Olympic sail??

Gues what fellow Laserforum readers...

YOU Are not invited to sial in the Olympics!!!

AND

You never will be invited.

The Olympics is ONE REGATTA and that ONE regatta is not even open for our Laser Class members

The Olympic committees decide who goes...not us.

The olympic committee restricts entry to one per country and only for those countries that qualify to participate.

laser sailing is for everybody.

Screw that Olympic crap.

Let's worry about OUR game!!!

If the Olympic guys want to have an event in the same kind of boats we sail..fine. But let's not, for the sake of their one stinkin' regatta with limited entries, held only every 1460 days, let them have any control over our game.
 

torrid

Just sailing
#52
Isn't it amazin how some of those who ahve posted above just brush off "nothing until after the Olympics" as though there is more than one sailor in every country who is impacted by the shape of the Olympic sail??
I have to admit, I thought it was kind of cool many years ago when the Laser was first selected as an Olympic class. Now there are times I kind of wish it would just go away.
 
#53
isn't it amazin how some of those who ahve posted above just brush off "nothing until after the olympics" as though there is more than one sailor in every country who is impacted by the shape of the olympic sail??

Gues what fellow laserforum readers...

You are not invited to sial in the olympics!!!

And

you never will be invited.

The olympics is one regatta and that one regatta is not even open for our laser class members

the olympic committees decide who goes...not us.

The olympic committee restricts entry to one per country and only for those countries that qualify to participate.

Laser sailing is for everybody.

Screw that olympic crap.

Let's worry about our game!!!

If the olympic guys want to have an event in the same kind of boats we sail..fine. But let's not, for the sake of their one stinkin' regatta with limited entries, held only every 1460 days, let them have any control over our game.

+1
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
#54
I agree with your comments Gouvernail, but unfortunately the sailors were never really consulted over the issue and now we're sort of stuck with the consequences. I've had this conversation with Jeff Martin and the others powers that be, they just can't see the Olympics as being detrimental to the class. They see the growth of the class from the perspective of aspiring Olympians, youth development etc, rather than the collapse of club sailing. Personally, I'd be quite happy to see not only the Laser dropped from the Olympics but sailing as well.
 
#55
I don't know about detrimental but I cannot see how being an Olympic class helps the class. Hardly anybody is going to buy a Laser because we are an Olympic class and the few who do are so much better than anybody else it makes no difference.

If it is something that impacts the class so much, why were the membership not consulted ?
Did the ISAF ask the Laser Class or just chose us on their without consultation ?
Why should we all suffer for the sake of a few elite sailors ?
Why can't the Olympics stick with old sails (they buy a stock now) and we will get a new one ?

I really don't understand why the class cannot just ignore the Olympics and focus on those people who are out on the water every weekend. And from the builders perspective, introduce a new sail at the same price as the old one with the same performance and they would see loads of people rush to buy one whatever the state of their current sail (= $$$ in the bank).

Or better still, given that the UK is totally broke and the costs of the Olympics is making things a lot worse (you should see the public spending cuts we are enduring here with lots more to come - health service, police force, military, social service, the lot) - lets scrap the Olympics and all go sailing instead.

Ian
 

Rob B

Active Member
#56
Never, it's not an issue that the class votes on, we only vote on changes to the class rules and not changes to the technical specifications. As long as the technical committee / World Council (and now ISAF) approve it, the builders can change the sails when ever they wish from my understanding. It's doubtful that any change will occur until after the next Olympics, but I don't think a change would have a significant impact even 12 months out.
Well I think that's stupid. We've been dicking around w/this sail crap for years! Why hold up the rest of the class from getting something EVERYONE wants onother 2 years for a 30-40 boat elite fleet race? Let us mortals get on with it and keep 200 or so of the older design sails on the shelf for the olympic contenders.
 
#57
I honestly think that changes should come as they are ready, independent of the Olympic cylce. If those who eventually end up at the Olympics are supposed to be the best, then they should be able to manage learning a new sail at any point. Further, as a one-design class, if a new sail became available to everyone at the same time, the game would still be one-design. Everyone competing would have had the opportunity to sail with the new sail for the same amount of time, which in my opinion would even further level the playing field.

And isn't a level playing field the intention of a one-design class anyway?

If a new sail could be designed with improved durability, without improved performance, then all us old school sailors wouldn't have obsolete equipment.
 
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