Understood, will have to find a solution for safety during races, last year at a national, I found myself with no wind, no one willing to give me a tug, and barely enough light to make it back to shore. Just not keen to repeat that.No restrictions on notes that you can take with you on board. A phone, however, counts as "outside assistance" which isn't allowed.
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No restrictions on notes that you can take with you on board. A phone, however, counts as "outside assistance" which isn't allowed.
That’s the big ”if”if the phone is used to get coaching while racing that would be a violation.
There is a legal requirement under International Maritime Law, for them to provide assistance to any vessel in distress. Distress can be in many forms but it could include getting back to shore in a safe and timely manner. This applies to not just the coach boats but also the boats used by the race committee (start boat, course laying boats, jury boats etc). There is also a major onus on the race committee to make sure that all competitors are safely back on shore before they leave the water.Understood, will have to find a solution for safety during races, last year at a national, I found myself with no wind, no one willing to give me a tug, and barely enough light to make it back to shore. Just not keen to repeat that.
That’s the big ”if”The problem is that you’d have the ability to easily get outside help, and you may have a hard time to prove that you were reading pre-recorded notes instead of your coach’s text messages
And as this in the ”Laser talk” section: the Laser class rules do prohibit all ”electronic equipment” except a compass and a timing device.
Look at the Nautalytics before you spend big bucks developing a digital compass.Holy crap, I just looked at Intensity. $500 for an electronic compass that is nothing more than an electronic compass!??!!? I think I'll go into business making these... I'll add a timer feature too.
You then need to take into account what the class fundamental rule says. To paraphrase, it's illegal unless the class rule says it's legal. So having it in your possession is illegal, because the class rules do not say you can have it in your possession.Class rules are a completely different issue and, in my own defense, I did say that unless there is a class rule provision. As you said, rule 22(e) prohibits the "use" of electronic equipment not otherwise permitted:
(e) Any use of electronic equipment not specifically allowed in the rules is prohibited unless the rules are modified by the sailing instructions.
Note the term "use of" as opposed to "possession." If a racer has a phone in his or her possession and they do not use it, then they are not violating rule 22(e). So if the OP wants to carry a cell phone or a VHF handheld that's okay. He could even use it in between races, even to check in with a coach. Further, he could petition his OA to make a provision in the SIs to make whatever changes he feels are needed.
Ok, I paraphrased; I wasn't in a position at the time to type out or copy the actual rule. As you may not be aware, I was an International Measurer for the Laser Class, unlike most people on the forum or even the internet, I probably understand the class better than most, yet you don't complain about their interpretations. There is only one person in the world that can make an interpretation of the Laser Class rules and that is the World Measurer. Other measurers from district to international can make interim decisions until an official interpretation is received. Those official interpretations are usually discussed amongst the other international measurers and the class technical committee before being issued.That is the first mistake when interpreting law or rules, never paraphrase. If you cannot interpret or cite the rule directly, then your are adding only conjecture making matters complicated, muddying the waters, if you will. To paraphrase what you said, since the class rules don't mention that eating on your boat is legal, then it must be illegal. I think for the purposes of safety for ClaVaPa1, I wouldn't protest, if that was his intention. If he is sailing in waters with a bunch of "coaches" who knows if they would mention something to their sailor.
There is only one person in the world that can make an interpretation of the Laser Class rules and that is the World Measurer. Other measurers from district to international can make interim decisions until an official interpretation is received.
Whilst each re-issue of the class Measurement By-Laws cancels all previous issues, one of the things we look at in making decisions in making interpretations is the historical changes in the rules. If there is an appeals decision somewhere that shows I am wrong, please link us to it.
So back in 2012, the mobiles phones were specifically mentioned and prohibited in the introduction to the measurement bylaws. In 2017 the specific rule stating that electronic equipment other than timing devices was further modified and extended to permit digital compasses, however limitations on what timing devices and compasses could do were introduced. So what does that mean for the mobile phone? All mobile phones are also clocks and hence a timing device. Are mobile phones capable of transmitting, receiving or storing information about the wind or boat position? Yes, they can receive a phone call on and get told the wind is 15 knots from the NE or let someone know that you’re out sailing on the bay. So they are banned under Rule 22(d).
The OP wanted to whip out the phone and check "reminders and info before and after the races"; well if it's about the wind it would be illegal as its stored digital information, potentially about the wind, so his intent of the use of the phone makes it clear that its purpose was illegal.
There is a precedence of carrying of illegal equipment like GPS trackers (used at the Olympics and some other events), which are not permitted under Rule 22(d), so the sailing instructions could permit the carrying of mobile phones.
Any discussion about having the item inside a bag not being used, as apposed to in use is largely irrelevant because it's already prohibited under 22(d).
Let’s also consider the mobile phone as a piece of safety equipment. My oldest handbook is 1993, and the wording remains unchanged say that "Any additional equipment required by an International, National or other governing authority for safety purposes may be fitted or carried provided it is not used in contravention of the Fundamental Rule.
As for your comments on the fundamental rule, it specifically talks about the hull form, construction, equipment placing of equipment, fittings etc .... as supplied by the builder except when such an alteration or change is specifically authorised by Parts 2 or 3 of the rules. Part 3 includes Rule 22. At no stage does the fundamental rule discuss consumption of food which most people would not consider a banana a piece of "equipment".
However, I'm sure the World Measurer would happily respond to any discussion you want to have about whether eating broke the fundamental rule. While you're at it, bring up drink bottles are aren't actually mentioned in the Measurement By-Laws but have often appeared in the interpretations.
So in brief. The carrying of a mobile phone breaches rule 22(d), its presence on the boat is prohibited, not just it's use. Rule 22(e) could be applied if the sailing instructions specifically permitted mobile phones to be carried but not used during racing. A mobile could be considered a piece of safety equipment, but only when there is a specific requirement for a governing body for all competitors to carry one, a bit grey on whether it is permitted to be used during racing, but probably not permitted under the fundamental rule.
Kraken, I’m not sure what your purpose is, but a lot of your arguments don’t make a lot of sense. A good example of this is:
The scope of "equipment" discussed is limited to that which was "supplied by the builder." “ A fair and strong argument could be made that any such equipment not supplied by the builder is not impacted by the fundamental rule. “. Under that theory you could use a spinnaker on your Laser.
Firstly go read the class by-laws instead of making stuff up.Wow, so much stuff here it's hard to know where to begin...
If you are talking about an iPhone or similar Smart Phones I would agree with you. People still carry and use flip phones (beater phones), and the like, that perform none of those functions. So ClaVaPa1 could use/carry/store/race with on his boat one of those.A mobile phone is a timing device capable of displaying, delivering, transmitting, receiving and storing infomation about wind speed, wind direction or the boats position.
I thought the most basic function of a phone was to receive or make a phone call. If a phone is capable of doing those functions, it's capable of the person at the other end letting you know what the wind is doing or you letting them know where you are, if the same phone has a clock display then it's prohibited under 22(d). You could find one of the original bricks ....If you are talking about an iPhone or similar Smart Phones I would agree with you. People still carry and use flip phones (beater phones), and the like, that perform none of those functions. So ClaVaPa1 could use/carry/store/race with on his boat one of those.
I'm not at all concerned about having a phone on board.
Firstly go read the class by-laws instead of making stuff up.
I thought the most basic function of a phone was to receive or make a phone call. If a phone is capable of doing those functions, it's capable of the person at the other end letting you know what the wind is doing or you letting them know where you are ....
I see you are new to the class. Despite the fact the class doesn’t work perfectly, it has thrived for 50 years and has been an Olympic class for quite a while. So I personally think you should have confidence that the organization of the class pretty much makes sense. If it didn’t, the class would have imploded by now.
Are you sure you don't care about carrying a phone on your boat as you claim?I'm still waiting for links to the written interpretations of "fundamental rule" that prohibit water bottles. Will you be providing that, and any other links to actual interpretations that in any way support your assertion that a cell phone is considered a compass? Now if that exists, things change. But until then, I stand by my claim that a cell phone is not a compass, that it instead other electronic equipment and as such its actual use of which is prohibited, not mere possession. And even then, only while actually racing, since the class rules and RSS have no force except during a race.
The litigation is pretty much due to the former builder LP, and that litigation is over. The fact the class was able to break away from LP is a great sign of extreme functionality and willingness to change.Hm... I don't dispute much of that, but... Have you seen any of the litigation going on?
Are you sure you don't care about carrying a phone on your boat as you claim?
And just out of curiosity, did you recently buy your first Laser to sail, to race, or just to argue about rules you say you don't care about?
Alan, I'm afraid you've done it again, you are trying to make an inference about all mobile phones. That, to me, is just wrong. If that was truly the case whenever the rule was written, and whomever the person was that specifically wrote that language is a true novice at correctly writing rules, and all rules written by said person should be heavily scrutinized. If the rule was last corrected in 2012 (can't remember if that was what I read earlier in this thread), and they are supposedly updated yearly, why haven't the rules been corrected since then to specifically state "mobile phones?" Doesn't seem that difficult to update one rule. Or, maybe, since it never happens or nobody cares to protest someone about it, the Rules Committee doesn't know it is a problem.Rule 22(d) covers mobile phones as they have are timing devices with the ability of making or receiving a call....
in motorsports often the rule books have exactly that statement. "if does not specifically say you can, you cant".You then need to take into account what the class fundamental rule says. To paraphrase, it's illegal unless the class rule says it's legal. So having it in your possession is illegal, because the class rules do not say you can have it in your possession.