470 Layout

[LaLi]

Mast puller: a very simple one can be set up with just a piece of low-stretch 5 or 6 mm rope with a relatively hard cover, and a small (short!) Clamcleat. The cleat should be mounted as far back as possible on the mast gate (starboard side is standard for some reason), and the other end of the line can be simply deadended through a hole on the opposite side. A big bowline can be tied to the free end as a handle. Tried it and it works for club-level/recreational purposes.

(Have you looked for any possibly existing chocks yet? They usually hide at the bottom of a sail bag )

Vang: I see in an earlier picture that you have a standard Laser vang key; if it fits nicely in the boom slot, fine. I'm thinking that you might use the old key block as well (for a 12:1 system), if it's strong enough.

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[michael.ganshirt]

Mast puller: a very simple one can be set up with just a piece of low-stretch 5 or 6 mm rope with a relatively hard cover, and a small (short!) Clamcleat. The cleat should be mounted as far back as possible on the mast gate (starboard side is standard for some reason), and the other end of the line can be simply deadended through a hole on the opposite side. A big bowline can be tied to the free end as a handle. Tried it and it works for club-level/recreational purposes.

I can rig up such a thing.

(Have you looked for any possibly existing chocks yet? They usually hide at the bottom of a sail bag )

No, no evidence of any chocks. This boat was not used in a serious way for many years. Recreational sailing with bare bones, very patched together rigging.

 

[michael.ganshirt]

So, playing around with the rig yesterday, I raised both sails and the trailer and was able to hook up my mail halyard on the little hook but the jib halyard hook (or hooks) appear to be missing.

I assume that there were once a hook or two below where the halyard exits the mast, yes/ I see sets of drilled holes there.

As a side note, my mast looks like it has some serious dents. This could be interesting under stress.

 

[LaLi]

There's supposed to be only one hook for the jib halyard, moving at the sail end of the purchase system. It hasn't been (directly) screwed or riveted anywhere.

It's strange with all those holes between the boom and the deck. It's possible that there's been a "magic box" there, at two different positions. That would have been a 1970s-typical solution for the jib halyard system. They fell out of fashion pretty soon after people realized that regular, free-floating blocks actually provided less friction.

From the 1980s on, the purchase system has been running mostly along the centreboard case/cockpit floor. However, on modern 420s it's all on the mast, and I think that would make the most sense on your boat, too. This is how it's on a Mackay 420:

The cleat doesn't have to be integrated with a block; the control line tail can be led via the mast step to the centreboard case, for example.
(Also note the blue chock in front of the mast!)

Where are the dents on the mast? It's hard to see from the picture, but it looks like the mast has been pushed hard against the sides of the mast gate. Could be the result of way too low rig tension + dipping the mast in whatever there was at the bottom of the lake/sea...

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[michael.ganshirt]

That purchase system looks pretty nice. I can build up one of those. Both of those blocks are free-floating, correct? I like the idea of cleating the line elsewhere as well. What is the metal cable, that is affixed to the bottom block/cleat, attached to below, something on the the mast step, perhaps? What size blocks do you suppose those are? They look pretty little. Pehaps I should make a lesser system for tensioning the main halyard as well?

(Also note the blue chock in front of the mast!)

I see that, yes. Are the black things that seem to be hugging the mast also part of the chock?

I noticed this little block up under the mast brace. Is this used for the spinnaker up/downhaul mechanism?

This is what it looks like above. That mechanism is something I also have to rig up from scratch-none presently exists on the boat.

Wondering about these blocks and the fairlead at the rear of the centerboard trunk as well.

 

[LaLi]

That purchase system looks pretty nice. I can build up one of those. Both of those blocks are free-floating, correct?

The hook block is, the cleat block is fixed (although with a piece of wire).

What is the metal cable, that is affixed to the bottom block/cleat, attached to below, something on the the mast step, perhaps?

It's attached most likely to the mast step, yes, or to some place lower on the mast. Your mast has that mystery fitting above the vang attachment which may have been used, and might again be used for this purpose.

What size blocks do you suppose those are? They look pretty little.

The hook block is a 16 mm Harken 408, which has a safe working load of more than 300 kg, so it should be strong enough. The cleat block is a 29 mm Harken 347, which is even stronger. Carbo blocks would be somewhat out of style for your boat, though

Pehaps I should make a lesser system for tensioning the main halyard as well?

Well... no. The main and jib halyards have fundamentally different functions. The main halyard is not an adjustment. It just gets the main up where it belongs, keeps it there, and that's it. You don't need to tension it and it doesn't tension anything else. That's why just a hook is sufficient.
(Did you notice on the Mackay cockpit shot (post # 30) that the jib halyard cleat is labeled "rig tension"? They're one and the same in the 470.)

Are the black things that seem to be hugging the mast also part of the chock?

No, it's a wrap-around chafe plate riveted to the mast.

I noticed this little block up under the mast brace. Is this used for the spinnaker up/downhaul mechanism?

Who knows. It's been possibly used for the downhaul or its elastic takeup. It's more likely though that the downhaul was led aft to the cockpit, through one of the blocks in front of the mast step.

That mechanism is something I also have to rig up from scratch-none presently exists on the boat.

All you need is a good hook, two lengths of thin low-stretch rope, and a piece of elastic. Pretty simple. I think that the uphaul is intended to be external, and run through the pictured block on the mast and then through the smaller fairlead. Is there a block up the mast, just above the spreaders maybe?

Wondering about these blocks and the fairlead at the rear of the centerboard trunk as well.

Didn't we already go through that? Although David suggested that those are spinnaker halyard cleats, I am pretty sure that they're for the centreboard uphaul. The line that goes through the fairlead eye runs along the port side of the centreboard case and comes up through the exit block at the front end of the case.

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[michael.ganshirt]

OK, I think the purchase system is the first thing I'm going to put together, that and order up some line. I want to have a different color pattern for each purpose in the boat. The thing is going to look like a christmas tree.

Looking at Harken blocks at different places and I notice that many of the blocks (like the 408 that I want to use for the vang) come in an "F" version. "F" for "fishing". Are these significantly different from the non-F versions, do you know?

 

[LaLi]

I want to have a different color pattern for each purpose in the boat. The thing is going to look like a christmas tree.

Very un-1970-ish... but very practical. At the time, almost all suitable rope was white. When I was setting up my first 470, I wanted the jibsheet to be easily visible, so I chose a red line for that. The mainsheet already happened to be blue, and the colour system developed from there

Looking at Harken blocks at different places and I notice that many of the blocks (like the 408 that I want to use for the vang) come in an "F" version. "F" for "fishing". Are these significantly different from the non-F versions, do you know?

I have no idea! Could you give a link?

By the way, I'm not sure if the 408 would work on your vang. Have to test it (it's about the angles). The classic 086 definitely would.

Where do you plan to do your shopping anyway? I can recommend APS - Annapolis Performance Sailing | APS as having a wide selection and lots of expertise. Or do you have a favourite walk-in store closer to you?

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[michael.ganshirt]

I have been doing some online shopping at APS and I have the local West Marine that I have been using as well, over the years.

Here's the 408F I found on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SJ9JK3F/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_3?smid=ATRQ56T3H9TM5&psc=1

 

[LaLi]

"F" for "fishing".

Harken 408F
Weird. Very weird. There seem to be "F" version cleats and eyestraps, too!

But you can see that it's something that shows up at general marine stores and ones for other water activities than sailing, not sailing specialists. Maybe it's a mistake/misunderstanding that just spread. Or even a practical joke.

In any case, those seem to be identical in every way. Including price, which is the ultimate giveaway that it's the same product.

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[michael.ganshirt]

Perhaps this would serve as my mast chock.

Ronstan Dinghy Mast Chock Set, 6 piece

 

[michael.ganshirt]

Is the Sta-Set rope from New England Ropes a decent choice for low stretch line on the the vang and Purchase system?

 

[LaLi]

Ronstan Dinghy Mast Chock Set, 6 piece

I think I have a set like that somewhere... they're too narrow for a Lightning, but if they're good for a 420 mast and gate, they should work on a 470, too. If you go down the chock route, you can even make them yourself out of nylon or some similar material. And then there's this guy in Connecticut if you want to spend some money.

Measure your mast gate in any case - there shouldn't be much sideways play, and you may want to attach plastic shims to the sides of the gate opening to minimize it. Also measure if the gate is centred; if not, you can centre the mast by attaching a thicker shim on the other side. (This sort of detail may sound too racing-oriented, but it's about safety, too.)

As it's the default rope for control lines on Nickels-built boats, I've pulled a lot of Sta-Set during the last couple of years It's fine for the cleating parts in control systems, but you can't call it "low-stretch", and should use something stronger for the primary lines in a vang, for example. If NE ropes is your favorite rope maker, then you'd go for their 3 mm Endura 12. Their 4 mm Finish Line should be good for lighter-loaded systems (like the main cunningham) and is good in cleats, too.

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[michael.ganshirt]

I'm looking at my local West Marine and they have this listed:

NEW ENGLAND ROPES Stronger than Steel 12-Strand Dyneema | West Marine

Does this look like the same rope?

 

[michael.ganshirt]

...or this Vectran stuff, which seems to be pretty low stretch?

NEW ENGLAND ROPES V-12 Vectran Single Braid | West Marine

 

[LaLi]

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Thanks, West Marine.

But the ropes are ok Any single-braid 12-strand Dyneema is good for non-cleating parts of purchase systems. I probably wouldn't choose single-braid Vectran, though, as it's not as durable - it doesn't stretch, but it has a "best before" date. I'm trying it out on my Laser traveller and it's ok so far.

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[michael.ganshirt]

Oh, You're in Finland? I didn't realize that. Taka-Töölö. I hadn't heard of that town/city/area before. Lots of "umlauts"!

 

[LaLi]

Lots of "umlauts"!

The original Swedish-language spelling has one letter "ö" less (As pronunciation goes, it rhymes with "furler".)

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[michael.ganshirt]

I've purchased my blocks, line and some other hardware to rig up the Purchase System for my 470. I want to make sure that I have the routing of the line through the blocks correct. It's tough to see the pattern from this picture.

This is a helpful guide but it puts the blocks at a 90 degree angle with one another.

How To Reeve a 6:1 Purchase – Fosters Ship Chandlery

I'd like to minimize the rubbing of the line, if possible.

 

[michael.ganshirt]

Here's my mockup of the system

 

[LaLi]

There are several ways of doing that, and having the sheaves at right angles does minimize rope/rope friction, BUT it's highly likely that you need to orient the hook block so that there's the least friction against the mast itself (like in the Mackay picture). But it's something that you have to test.

Here's my mockup of the system

The hook block probably wants to turn clockwise (viewed from above) from that position. You have to test it on the boat, try different ways and choose what works best.

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[michael.ganshirt]

I'll get my wire for the bottom made up later today and try it on the boat. The vang is next. I'll have to find a neat way to attach the upper block to the boom. After that I guess I should think about setting up a cunningham rig.

 

[LaLi]

I'll get my wire for the bottom made up later today and try it on the boat.

At this point, you should check the mast foot position, because it's going to affect everything you might attach to the mast step.

Measure the distance from the transom to the aft edge of the mast. The spar should stand at 90° to the mast gate (just for this measurement!), and you should include the mainsail track, as if it came all the way down where it's actually cut off now below the boom. The reading should be about 3095 millimetres. Chances are that the mast foot is farther back (smaller number) than that now. This is also part of the basic tuning; your sails may be some very old cut which may have used settings very different from the modern ones, but I still think that is the best figure to use as a starting point.

Depending on where the mast sits in the step, you will have a number of holes available for attaching stuff. The way we do it on Lightnings (they still have this kind of old-school mast steps) is to attach bolts that go across the whole step fitting. You can then shackle anything to them.

The vang is next. I'll have to find a neat way to attach the upper block to the boom.

You already have a neat way, the Laser vang key. Did you buy something that it doesn't fit? If you got the 340 which Harken recommends (for some unknown reason; the swivel is totally useless), then just add another shackle, or the 093 adaptor.

A couple things that I've noticed which will affect the vang setup: 1) the exit blocks right in front of the traveller are clearly angled down, and 2) the vang attachment point on the mast appears to be above the top level of the centreboard case. That means that the vang line is supposed to run via the mast step. There should be two single lead blocks there (the line comes to them from straight above, from the block(s) at the mast fitting). Now, you have two single blocks on the port side in front of the mast step which you can recycle for this!

After that I guess I should think about setting up a cunningham rig.

I believe the cheek block on the port side of the mast is intended for that, as well as the port side Clamcleat on top of the centreboard case. Once on the water, you will notice that you want a lead block behind it (it can be quite close to the traveller), and a cleat that has a fairlead and isn't at an angle to the centreline. And is made of metal (Of course, the same applies to the Clamcleat on the other side, too.)

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[michael.ganshirt]

You already have a neat way, the Laser vang key. Did you buy something that it doesn't fit? If you got the 340 which Harken recommends (for some unknown reason; the swivel is totally useless), then just add another shackle, or the 093 adaptor.

Yes, of course, I have the laser thingie that I'll use. The Harken 093 should do the trick.

That means that the vang line is supposed to run via the mast step

I think the vang is supposed to run off of the metal strap on the lower, rear of the mast (the one that the inadequate vang is hooked into in the pictures). Connecting the vang at the mast step allows it to interfere with the front centerboard trunk.

I'm going to try setting up the new jib purchase system to the existing I hook on the mast, rather than to the mast step. Connecting to the mast step will likely cause interference with both the vang and the spinnaker halyard. It remains to be seen if this setup will allow enough room for proper tensioning of the jib, however. I'll try it out as soon as I can get up to the boat.

At this point, you should check the mast foot position, because it's going to affect everything you might attach to the mast step.

I'll have to check this out as well. I'm a bit confused about the details here but I'll reread this thread when I'm at the boat and see if I can figure out what you mean, specifically.

What do you recommend for line for my jib sheets (both type and diameter) and the same for my spinnaker sheets?

I'm still waiting for my I beam traveller brace and hardware for the vang. It's feeling like it will be fall before I get this thing in the water.

 

[LaLi]

I think the vang is supposed to run off of the metal strap on the lower, rear of the mast (the one that the inadequate vang is hooked into in the pictures). Connecting the vang at the mast step allows it to interfere with the front centerboard trunk.

I meant that the secondary vang line should run first from the boom to the mast, then down to the mast step. It will hit the centreboard case (the forward "lip" of it) if you lead it back directly from the mast. As I also said, the aft exit blocks are at an angle that doesn't point directly to the mast fitting. Are there by any chance any existing blocks or fairleads between the mast step and the exit blocks, possibly in the vicinity of the thwart? (That would explain a couple of things. Post pictures if you find anything.)

I'm going to try setting up the new jib purchase system to the existing I hook on the mast, rather than to the mast step.

It remains to be seen if this setup will allow enough room for proper tensioning of the jib, however.

I've been thinking that ever since I noticed that fitting. As your cleat block has a swivel, an additional shackle is all you need to attach it there.

You're right that the range of adjustment has to be tested "live"; it depends totally on the length of the halyard wire, so be ready to shorten it, or get a longer one. But at that point you're already doing basic tuning, so measure the mast foot position before that. Also, it helps if your forestay is the maximum length, that is, it barely keeps the widest part of the mast within the mast gate, with the mast foot in the right place.

What do you recommend for line for my jib sheets (both type and diameter) and the same for my spinnaker sheets?

For the spinnaker sheet, anything 6 mm thick that has a Dyneema core and isn't awfully stiff. The jibsheet could be a 6 or 7 mm polyester rope, but as your jib cleats are on the windward side (and you have to hand-hold the sheet a lot), some very soft 8 mm might work better.

Note that I used the singular for both sheets: a continuous spinnaker sheet is standard, and the smartest (I think) way of tying the jibsheet to the sail is with a piece of thinner rope in the middle of a continuous line.

At this point, I think I'll post this picture of a 2005-ish Mackay which illustrates this, and quite a few other things, too

You can see the spinnaker sheet (white line with green fleck) crossing the cockpit, and the yellow jibsheet tied to the jib clew with a purple line (which I think should be shorter).

(And no, I don't know what the green handles are for. And yes, you do need spinnaker bags like those.)

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[Wavedancer]

After seeing that, I will stick with my Laser/ILCA Dinghy...

 

[LaLi]

Wavedancer, that layout is more than ten years old; current boats have even more lines led to the side tanks

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[Cactus Cowboy]

After seeing that, I will stick with my Laser/ILCA Dinghy...

Haha, Wavedancer, I hear ya!!! Though I always did admire the 470s, they perform well with the right skipper, but I reckon one can say that about any boat, LOL. Moi, I like the minimalist approach, keeping things streamlined and operating under the *KISS* Principle: "KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID!!!"

 

[michael.ganshirt]

Yes, so now you all can appreciate what I'm up against trying to re-rig this beast. Thankfully, LaLi is giving me some very useful coaching.

 

[Cactus Cowboy]

That's what's great about this forum... plenty of knowledgeable folks here, a vast ocean of experience, LOL.

 

[michael.ganshirt]

Alright, so, I have been away from my boat rigging for the last couple of weeks. In the meantime, I have purchased a bunch of line and am returning to the running rigging again. I have found a way to attach my laser-style connector to the boom vang. The Jarken 093 was too big to fit my new 029 Harken block so I used this setup instead.

Not as elegant as the U Adapter but serviceable. I'm still looking for an elegant way to attach my new vang to the fitting on the mast. Perhaps a small enough twisted shackle is what I need.

Also, I am trying to figure out the routing of the line through the blocks of the vang. I have been using the picture that was posted earlier but I'm not certain of the details. I assume that there will be two ends of line coming out of the setup for cleating, is that correct?

 

[michael.ganshirt]

Oh, crap, nevermind about the vang attachment to the boom, I meant to say the purchase system attachment.

 

[LaLi]

The 093 too big for the 29 mm blocks? Should have tried it first before suggesting, sorry. (Everything has to be tested in real life.) But as I said, the swivel is pointless here, and you might want to use tape or thin elastic to keep the block from swiveling. The multi-part cascade will be a mess anyway at times (ask any Laser sailor).

The mast attachment: depends on the block. But it's always good to have plenty of small but strong shackles, both straight and twisted, available. You will need more of them than you think.

But as stated before, your problem at the mast end of the vang is that the eyestrap on the mast is above the level of the centreboard case top. You absolutely need to lead the line also via the mast step, and/or attach a second eyestrap on the mast below the original. And yes, there will be a vang line running on both sides of the case to the exit blocks right in front of the traveller. If there's only one system on a 470 that you want to be double-ended it's the vang.

I've been looking for good layout pictures for a while, and of course some of the best are to be found on this very forum

I thought of posting this one just to show how the centreboard uphaul (yellow in this boat) and downhaul (black) lines are led across the cockpit these days. But you can see some of the vang arrangement as well:

Of course, no one ever takes pictures of the mat step area! (Or it's in the dark.) But you can still see here that all parts of the vang lead just below the case top level from the boom. Also visible are the vang tails (red in this boat) coming out of the exit blocks to the cleats on the side tank.

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[michael.ganshirt]

I've been looking for good layout pictures for a while, and of course some of the best are to be found on this very forum

Yes, indeed. I hope that this very long set of posts will be useful to others. I'll post all of my eventual set up in great detail as well, including the mast step and with no dark areas.

 

[michael.ganshirt]

But as stated before, your problem at the mast end of the vang is that the eyestrap on the mast is above the level of the centreboard case top. You absolutely need to lead the line also via the mast step, and/or attach a second eyestrap on the mast below the original.

OK, I wish I could see an example of what you are saying here. Sorry for not fully picturing what you mean in my mind's eye. The way I was picturing the vang attachment was with my triple 16mm block hooked onto the big eyestrap on the mast (the attachment point that is, as you say, above the centerboard trunk). Is the attachment at the mast step that you are mentioning one of the line ends being tied off down there?

 

[LaLi]

Well, no, the non-moving ends of the primary vang lines have to be attached high enough on the mast in order to not hit the centreboard case. It's the ends of the cleating line that should be led through some lower point such as the mast step, after they exit your triple block. Adding a second attachment point to the mast would make things clearer.

I try to find/post pictures/diagrams in a few days. I'd do the photography myself, but the class is inactive here and I don't know where they've put all the boats

Have you measured your mast foot position yet?

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