470 Layout

Hello Everyone, I have acquired an older 470 and am interested in getting some information regarding how to layout all of the lines in the cockpit. Quite a lot of cleats and blocks for all of the various things. I'm starting from square one, basically, with figuring out how everything is intended to be set up and I want to purchase all new running rigging for the boat as soon as I can. Any help with the layout, pictures and/or diagrams etc would be appreciated. Thanks, Michael
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
First: post pictures of your boat in its current state. The more the better!

How old is "older" in your case, and who's the builder?

Do you intend to rig the boat the original way, or do you want a more contemporary layout, or just something simple that works?

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Thanks for the reply. Here are a bunch of pictures of the layout of the cockpit. This is a vanguard boat, the hull number is 332. I'm guessing it is from the seventies. I'd like to rig it up as it was originally. I have already ordered up a new traveller rail to replace the bent original. Some of the set-up seems pretty obvious, like the Spinnaker halyard which comes out of the bottom of the mast and I have it cleated all the way toward the stern on the floor. It's not clear where the main and jib halyards are meant to be cleated.
 

Attachments

I see how the vang is rigged, so that should be an easy bit and the traveller cleats through the little rollers in the brackets for the rail. The rest of the setup is a bit of a mystery.

I see the big blocks for the jib sheets but I'm not sure where and how they route down there.

The boom has two blocks, both for a connection with the traveller set up, I assume?

I don't have any set up for a topping lift but I see blocks on the mast front and blocks below.

The centerboard trunk, too, is a busy place. Lots of rollers, blocks and cleats up there.

Sorry for so many questions but I am pretty much starting from scratch with the running rigging.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Ooh, nice shots, thanks! Cool colour :D

The hull number doesn't say much, except maybe it's the 332nd 470 built by Vanguard. The sail number (which is a national one in 470s) would tell more. Anyway, the original layout and especially the inset main bulkhead (in front of the mast) places the boat in the early to mid-1970s.

I have already ordered up a new traveller rail to replace the bent original.
Good. My advice here would be to ditch the traveller car, and attach the sheet block to a rope bridle. It wouldn't even need to be adjustable, but you can use the existing fittings on the side tank for that if you want. Makes sheeting easier. The track would be just a (very necessary!) structural feature.

Some of the set-up seems pretty obvious, like the Spinnaker halyard which comes out of the bottom of the mast and I have it cleated all the way toward the stern on the floor.
That cleat should be at or near the back end of the centreboard case, with a turning block behind it. (More pictures!)

It's not clear where the main and jib halyards are meant to be cleated.
The main halyard seems to come out of the mast on the starboard side, make a 180° and cleat on a hook. There's no system for the jib halyard visible; you need at least a 6:1 (and preferably more) to get it properly tensioned.

I see how the vang is rigged, so that should be an easy bit
The vang is the most important adjustment in a 470, after the sheets! The poor 3:1 in the pictures is not original and is absolutely inadequate, even for recreational-only use. All the required blocks and cleats seem to be there on the centreboard case and the side tanks, so you only need a few new blocks between the mast and the boom. (And lots of low-stretch rope.) 16:1 is standard, 12:1 is fine.

the traveller cleats through the little rollers in the brackets for the rail.
As I said, you can use those for an adjustable bridle system as well.

I see the big blocks for the jib sheets but I'm not sure where and how they route down there.
Looks simple, the sheet runs straight from the jib through the block, and cleats on the opposite side deck. No one has used that system since 1975 or so, but if you want to keep that original, fine.

The boom has two blocks, both for a connection with the traveller set up, I assume?
Yeah, sounds like a standard 4:1 mainsheet.

I don't have any set up for a topping lift but I see blocks on the mast front and blocks below.
I see too many fairleads and blocks. It's like a previous owner has rigged new systems but hasn't bothered to undo the old ones. What type of turning block is there up the mast? (Picture!)

The centerboard trunk, too, is a busy place. Lots of rollers, blocks and cleats up there.
As in the previous area, there are too many blocks here, at least at the front end. You need only the one through block for the centreboard uphaul, for instance.

Sorry for so many questions but I am pretty much starting from scratch with the running rigging.
If you have questions, I have answers :D

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LaLi

Well-Known Member
Extra commentary on the pictures...

Picture 1: The two cam cleats are for the centreboard uphaul. A previous owner probably didn't understand this as there's another line rigged for this purpose on the opposite side in the front.
There's also a complete mystery fitting on the starboard side of the centreboard case cap. My advice is to get rid of this sort of things.

2: Here's the "acting" centreboard uphaul visible. Get rid of it.
The two other cleats are probably for the main cunningham and the spinnaker pole uphaul. They're strangely angled, should really be made from aluminium, and would benefit greatly from a lead block behind them.

3: Here's where the spinnaker pole downhaul goes through the mast gate. No idea why there's a second fairlead, and a block on the mast.
No visible mast puller (deck-level mast bend adjustment) either. You need to rig one but we'll come back to that later.

4: Here's the (I think) main halyard exit and hook.
The vang is from some other boat, and doesn't work on a 470.

6: The forward end of the centreboard case is a bit of a mystery. There's at least one block too many.
The purpose of the blocks in front of the mast step isn't totally clear either.
Where does the jib halyard exit the mast?

7: The track and the line are apparently for a sideways jib lead system. It's completely unnecessary and it would be best to remove it altogether.
The turning block for the trapeze elastic seems to be too far back; looks like someone actually moved it there from the original position. I'd move it even more forward and inboard.
Are there guy cleats in front of the chainplates?

11: The hiking straps should be attached much farther back on the boat! Their forward ends should be terminated at the buckles attached to the stringer.
The cheek block on the stringer is a bit of a mystery.

12: The cleats are pretty clear. Back to front: mainsheet (closer to the gunwale), traveler, vang, mystery cleat, spinnaker guy, jibsheet.

13: The single exit blocks are probably for a centreboard elastic downhaul system.
The strap crossing the centreboard slot is another mysterious piece of equipment.

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David Hughes

New Member
Strap stops the trailing edge of the board from hitting the traveler bar and/or old-style compass mount. The hole in the aft wall of the centercase (with two cam cleats at angels) is for the spin halyard.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Strap stops the trailing edge of the board from hitting the traveler bar and/or old-style compass mount.
That's what I thought, too, but shouldn't the top edge of the centreboard hit the front end of the case before the trailing edge hits anything? There is also supposed to be an elastic system pulling the board down, so it can't even free-fall in the case that the boat turns upside down...

By the way, do you (Michael) know how the traveller track got bent?

The hole in the aft wall of the centercase (with two cam cleats at angels) is for the spin halyard.
I am pretty sure that it's for the centreboard uphaul. I don't right now have access to my 1970s sailing magazines to check it, but maybe next week :D

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David Hughes

New Member
The board should have enough play that when the boat is flipped on land the board wants to fall down. On land, use the Cunningham to hold up the head of the board. Often, the trailing edge of the board will hit before the head of the boar does. To combat this, most boats add a stopper on the top forward area of the centercase so that the board hits the stopper first. Even the Olympic teams need to tie up their centerboard before pulling out of the water.

I’m fairly certain the aft hole is for the spin halyard. However, I could be wrong. That was the standard way to set the kite back then. The angled open clam cleats on the case are for the centerboard adjustments.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Often, the trailing edge of the board will hit before the head of the boar does. To combat this, most boats add a stopper on the top forward area of the centercase so that the board hits the stopper first.
Ok, fine. The boards (and cases) have come in slightly different dimensions over the decades, after all.

The angled open clam cleats on the case are for the centerboard adjustments.
Not very likely. Their lines come through the two-sheave exit blocks in front of them, and it makes most sense if they are, as I said, for the cunningham and spinnaker pole uphaul.
The original centreboard uphaul was probably a 3:1. using the Harken blocks at the front end of the case, and an elastic downhaul going through the single exit blocks behind the Clamcleats. The blocks on top of the centreboard don't match this, which makes me think that the board came from another, newer boat. Is this so?

Some more thoughts/questions...

Do the "mystery blocks" on the stringers in front of the traveller match the "mystery cleats" on the side tank? They might be for the sideways jib-lead system which, as I said, you'd better remove completely.
Does the boat have spinnaker bags, or even necessary fittings for attaching them?

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This is great stuff, guys. I can't hardly wait to get back from my vacation to start sorting things out.

The hull number doesn't say much, except maybe it's the 332nd 470 built by Vanguard. The sail number (which is a national one in 470s) would tell more.
I think my sail # is 1073. The older spinnaker holds the number.

The vang is the most important adjustment in a 470, after the sheets! The poor 3:1 in the pictures is not original and is absolutely inadequate, even for recreational-only use. All the required blocks and cleats seem to be there on the centreboard case and the side tanks, so you only need a few new blocks between the mast and the boom. (And lots of low-stretch rope.) 16:1 is standard, 12:1 is fine.
Will this set-up do for the replacement vang?
470 Boom Vang | Mauri Pro

I'll respond to more of these posts once I'm home. I'll take some other pictures as well, as suggested.

I want to begin making up all new halyards, sheets and other running rigging as soon as I can. I may (likely will) need some suggestions for types and sizes of rope/line in the near future.

Thanks very much for the info!
 

David Hughes

New Member
The mystery blocks are likely for the trapeze bungee system. Modern boats put the same block just behind the centercase and on the keelson.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
I think my sail # is 1073.
I believe the registration year (and most likely the building year as well) would be 1973 or '74 then.

Will this set-up do for the replacement vang?
470 Boom Vang | Mauri Pro
Doesn't look like a "set-up", but a few parts that could be used to build a vang. You already have the cleats; if you want to keep the "oldie" look of the boat, get some "Classic" Harken blocks while they're still produced.

The mystery blocks are likely for the trapeze bungee system.
Possible but not likely with this vintage. It usually ran simply from side to side, in front of the mast or via the mast step. Of course those cheek blocks might be reused for that purpose.

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That cleat should be at or near the back end of the centerboard case, with a turning block behind it. (More pictures!)[/QUOTE]

Spinakker Halyard Cleat and Block.jpg
Here is the cleat that I assume is for the spinnaker halyard, yes?
 
The main halyard seems to come out of the mast on the starboard side, make a 180° and cleat on a hook. There's no system for the jib halyard visible; you need at least a 6:1 (and preferably more) to get it properly tensioned.
Here is where the jib halyard exits the mast, just below where the mast attaches. It currently has a loop at the end of the existing halyard. It's not clear to me where this halyard cleats. As you mentioned, it should go through some combination of blocks in order to achieve a 6:1
Jib Halyard.jpg


The main halyard, too, exits the starboard side of the lower mast. I see a hook above this area. Does the halyard hook onto this somehow?

Main Halyard and Hook.jpg
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Here is the cleat that I assume is for the spinnaker halyard, yes?
Well, yes... although the cleating angle is pretty, ahem, interesting. You'd need to operate it with your feet :confused: Better move it to the side of the centreboard case (and add a top fairlead to it). Also, a "normal" single block would work better as an aft lead block than the cheek-y one.

What happened to the hiking straps?

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Well, yes... although the cleating angle is pretty, ahem, interesting. You'd need to operate it with your feet :confused: Better move it to the side of the centreboard case (and add a top fairlead to it). Also, a "normal" single block would work better as an aft lead block than the cheek-y one.

I agree that that cleating angle is odd but what else would it be used for? Perhaps there's a cleating position already on the side of my centerboard case for the spinnaker halyard? That centerboard trunk is a busy place, indeed!

What happened to the hiking straps?
The rear hiking straps are torn. I'll order up some new one at some point.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Here is where the jib halyard exits the mast, just below where the mast attaches. It currently has a loop at the end of the existing halyard. It's not clear to me where this halyard cleats. As you mentioned, it should go through some combination of blocks in order to achieve a 6:1
There really seems to be nothing to hook it onto. I believe the most often used system is a 12:1 (cascading 2x6) that runs mostly along the centreboard case near the floor. For recreational-only use (that's what I'm assuming here all the time) you'd get away with half of that, with a 420-style system along the mast.

The main halyard, too, exits the starboard side of the lower mast. I see a hook above this area. Does the halyard hook onto this somehow?
Yes, there should be a loop at the end of the wire, just like the jib halyard has.

The fitting on the aft side of the mast that's fastened with two screws and a rivet is interesting - it may have something to do with the jib halyard, or the vang.

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LaLi

Well-Known Member
My Jib and main halyards are fashioned out of rope. Should they be wires/cables and not rope?
The main halyard can be of low-stretch rope, but the hook on your mast indicates that the original was wire. Also, there wasn't really good enough rope for this purpose available in the early 1970s.

The jib halyard has to be of wire, as thick as the shrouds but more flexible. It tensions the rig against the latter and carries typically between 130 and 180 kg worth of static load on boats built in the 1980s and later. Older hulls probably flex too much to reach those levels, so you have to settle for some lower value. You still need a good purchase system for it.

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Among the other things that I'm sorting out is the rudder assembly. My tiller slips into the rudder brackets but it seems that it could slip right out. Is there something that should be holding it in there?

Rudder and Tiller 3.jpg

Also, there are no blocks or fairleads for raising and lowering the rudder blade?

Rudder and Tiller 2.jpg
 
...and then there's the little openings in the transom. Right now they have little rectangles of plywood in there. They are fastened with caulking with little holes cut in for draining. Not very elegant at all. I assume that they are supposed to be able to open fully in order to empty the cockpit quickly?

Transom Openings 3.jpg
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Jib halyard: I hope it's the luff of your jib that has a wire in it :D
(Fun fact: in my native language, every edge of a sail is actually called a "leech". A jib has a forward, aft, and a bottom leech.)

But seriously, I suppose one could use a very high-tech (and expensive) rope for the jib halyard, I just don't know if anyone has actually tried it. David surely knows if there are any developments in this area. But a wire is reliable, robust and traditional. The line that's in your mast now is a three-strand rope, the kind that's been widely used as a tail, simply to pull the "real" halyard in place. In no way is it acceptable as a load-bearing halyard by itself.

Rudder: basically, the 470 rudder can be held down (and up) by friction alone, but a downhaul is standard and and uphauls are used, too. The classic Vanguard rudder also relies on them to keep the tiller in place! Are there any cleats, or screw holes left by them on the tiller? The lines are probably intended to pass between the two bolts just below the tiller near the forward edge of the rudder head, no other fairleads are needed. A 2:1 purchase along the tiller is standard to keep the downhaul tight enough. The attachment holes for the lines on the blade look like an afterthought; small saddles on the square part of the edge are standard.

As a side note, you need a stopper to keep the rudder in place in case you capsize. Bolt a standard Laser retaining clip to the transom above and inside the lower pintle and you're ok.

Transom flaps: yes, please remove those ugly pieces of plywood! The four filled screwholes above the opening indicate that there's been a working flap there. Now those can be made of numerous different materials, and attached in many different ways. I've made a few myself. But for your purposes I'd recommend leaving the holes open after cleaning the area, and simply using tape (on the outside) to close them before going sailing. Transom draining is needed very rarely in a 470, and if you really do fill the boat, you can just rip the tapes off. (Or punch through them with the spinnaker pole.) Colourless packaging tape or wide white electrical tape look the coolest :D

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Jib halyard: I hope it's the luff of your jib that has a wire in it
Yes! The luff, thanks.

I guess I can try and have a wire halyard made for the boat. I suppose that it has to be assembled with the wire already through the mast. I guess I could fabricate my own and "swage" my own ends on it. I'm used to using cables to hoist sails, but always with a winch. What happens to all of the extra cable as the sail is hoisted on the 470?

the 470 rudder can be held down (and up) by friction alone, but a downhaul is standard and and uphauls are used, too. The classic Vanguard rudder also relies on them to keep the tiller in place!
Ah, yes, of course.

Are there any cleats, or screw holes left by them on the tiller?
Yes, there are a pair of cleats on either side of the tiller.

Bolt a standard Laser retaining clip to the transom above and inside the lower pintle and you're ok.
Gotcha, I'll order one of these today.

those can be made of numerous different materials, and attached in many different ways
I was thinking of making some plastic or fiberglass flaps and try and spring (or bungie) load them somehow. Certainly, the tape method will get me by.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
What happens to all of the extra cable as the sail is hoisted on the 470?
What "extra"?
The wire attaches at one end to the jib (or more accurately, the top of the luff wire) and the at the other to the tensioning system. There's no "extra" wire... the "lazy" part of the halyard consists of the tail, which can be very low-tech rope.

The hard thing about making a new halyard wire is getting the length right. It doesn't have to be exact, but even getting to the right ballpark requires some rough pre-tuning and measurement when you don't have the old one as a benchmark. But we'll come back to that later.

I was thinking of making some plastic or fiberglass flaps and try and spring (or bungie) load them somehow. Certainly, the tape method will get me by.
I've used acrylic sheet and hinged them from the top edge with different materials (I'll try neoprene the next time) which act as a seal against the transom as well. They keep closed with an elastic rope attached to a horn cleat on the centreline.
But these have been all on Lightnings, which can take on huge amounts of water when things go wrong. On all 470s I've used tape, or no holes at all.

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LaLi

Well-Known Member
kind of all over the place with this rigging.
That's what it's all about... trying to concentrate on 20 things at once :D Just the vang would need its own, endless thread...
I'm thinking of modelling something like #8 in this schematic.

VANG SYSTEMS | Ronstan Sailboat Hardware World
That's a 12:1 rigged as a 2x6. Not bad, but it would make things too crowded at the mast end of it. The problem with almost all systems on that page is that they're drawn as single-ended, and the 470 vang is double-ended. (Ok, it could be rigged single-endedly, but that would be very pointless as your boat already has the needed, standard fittings for the double-ended system at the back.) They all need one more block to lead the other tail down and back.

The standard 470 vang is a 16:1 as a 2x2x4 cascade. The boats I've raced or rigged have had that, or 12:1 (both 3x4 and 3x2x2) which I think is definitely sufficient. The block closest to the boom needs to be a bit stronger than the others, and the primary line of a low-stretch kind. The main mechanical challenge is arranging the sheaves at the lower end in a way that everything runs smoothly. It might actually make that easier if you added a second attachment point to the mast, some 10 cm above the old one. Just something to think about.

This what today's leading builder Mackay uses (and I think it could be improved at the mast end, but this is more to show the 16:1):

Vang_NoTakeUp.jpg

That's from their 470 order form, where you can look at all kinds of interesting technical options :rolleyes:
Their German dealer has a good view of the whole boat:

McKay 470 Ausbau.jpg

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Thanks, these pictures are a help, for sure. I noticed that vang setup on the Harken site. I think I'll buy those blocks and rig it up from there. Is something like a Dyneema rope a good option? 8 or 9mm?

I'm going to try and sort out some of these smaller rigging challenges (vang, spin pole lift/downhaul, jib, main, spinnaker sheets, etc) as I explore the main and jib halyard situations.

I have noticed that the jib sheets have an interesting set-up. There is a sort of bridle thing with looped ends that each sheet runs through on the way to each block. My current setup has a similar setup and the bridle has a loop tied in the middle, near the mast. What is the purpose of this gizmo?

After I have completed this I think I will post some detailed pictures of the final set up, just in case others have similar struggles.

I'm having trouble finding a suitable replacement for the brace that also serves as the traveller track. Mine is seriously bent. I think I need to find someone parting out an old hull.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
I noticed that vang setup on the Harken site. I think I'll buy those blocks and rig it up from there.
If you're actually going to order stuff now, I can give you a smarter (and cheaper) list :D
A few questions: what kind of vang attachment is there on the boom? (Picture!) What make and model is the current vang key (boom) block? (Picture)

Is something like a Dyneema rope a good option? 8 or 9mm?
Rope that thick is only good for the mainsheet. 3 or 4 mm single-braid Dyneema is good for the primary part of the vang, and 4 to 5 mm double-braid polyester for the cleating part.

I'm going to try and sort out some of these smaller rigging challenges (vang, spin pole lift/downhaul, jib, main, spinnaker sheets, etc) as I explore the main and jib halyard situations.
I'd do it the opposite way: more fundamental, "big" things first. One gets easily stuck in the shackle-and-pin level details and getting nowhere. Been there countless times. My advice is to prioritize the things you completely lack:
1. Straight traveller track
2. Jib halyard system
3. Mast puller (if you have chocks hiding somewhere, forget this for now)
4. Spinnaker bags

After those you can concentrate on the vang, centreboard and spinnaker pole systems, and after those you can go sailing!

I have noticed that the jib sheets have an interesting set-up. There is a sort of bridle thing with looped ends that each sheet runs through on the way to each block. My current setup has a similar setup and the bridle has a loop tied in the middle, near the mast. What is the purpose of this gizmo?
It's a sideways jib lead adjustment system. I already commented on it:
7: The track and the line are apparently for a sideways jib lead system. It's completely unnecessary and it would be best to remove it altogether.
Frees at least two blocks for something actually useful, like the vang :rolleyes:

I'm having trouble finding a suitable replacement for the brace that also serves as the traveller track.
That sort of I-track should be widely available. For example, wouldn't this do: Ronstan 3/4" I beam track 3'3

Couple more things that we haven't touched on yet: how's the trapeze equipment? (Picture!) And what about the centreboard gaskets?

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So, I just went up to my club to have a look at my boat (I wish I had brought it to my house) and as it sometimes turns out, my jib halyard IS a cable, not a rope. Faulty memory. So, that is no longer an issue. I'll put a new rope tail on it and use it as is for now.

what kind of vang attachment is there on the boom? (Picture!) What make and model is the current vang key (boom) block? (Picture)
I'll take some pictures of this. I plan to go up and raise the main and jib later today to better see state of those halyards.

That sort of I-track should be widely available. For example, wouldn't this do: Ronstan 3/4" I beam track 3'3
I'll give mine a measure and see how they compare. This looks promising.

3. Mast puller (if you have chocks hiding somewhere, forget this for now)
Mast puller? Chocks?

Couple more things that we haven't touched on yet: how's the trapeze equipment? (Picture!) And what about the centreboard gaskets?
I haven't looked at the underside of the hull so I don't know what the condition of the gasket is at this point.

I do have some trapeze hardware (cables, a pair of figure eight-looking fittings, blocks, etc.) but I know little about how to set them up.

Shroud and forestay tension is another issue...

Thanks for the help!
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
my jib halyard IS a cable, not a rope.
Yes :rolleyes:

Mast puller? Chocks?
In the pictures, there's nothing that limits mast bend at deck level. I commented on this earlier:
3: Here's where the spinnaker pole downhaul goes through the mast gate. No idea why there's a second fairlead, and a block on the mast.
No visible mast puller (deck-level mast bend adjustment) either. You need to rig one but we'll come back to that later.
The vang won't work properly if it bends the lower mast uncontrollably. The old-school way to limit this was to insert t-shaped chocks of plywood or plastic in front of the mast. They were certainly used on your boat when it was new.
The post-1970s way is the mast puller, which is a rope/wire that wraps around the front of the mast and cleats on the mast gate. This what the Mackay version looks like:

mast_puller.jpg

New rules allow it to be have more purchase, but I don't know if anyone's tested anything yet. Would be interested to hear David's views on this.
You can have a forward puller, too, but it's not needed for recreational use.

I do have some trapeze hardware (cables, a pair of figure eight-looking fittings, blocks, etc.) but I know little about how to set them up.
Pictures!

Shroud and forestay tension is another issue...
...which gets solved the moment you have a working jib halyard system. That's what tightens the shrouds.
The forestay is always slack when the jib is up, and exists solely to keep the mast up when the jib is down. This why you rarely lower (or hoist) the jib on a 470 on the water.

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