2017 Class Rule changes:

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
#2
As an old guy with not so great eyesight, the digital compass option looks attractive, except for the cost of course.
The other three proposed changes seem minimal. Perhaps that's why this thread has not received any responses, up to now.
 
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torrid

Just sailing
Thread starter #4
I think all the proposed rules are self-explanatory, and I would imagine they came directly from class membership input.

The inhaul and hiking strap rules don't really add cost or give an unfair advantage. The rules just needed to be adjusted to specifically allow them. The digital compass will obviously add some cost, but I think it is something that many sailors have wanted. The class does need to keep up with technology to some degree (spars and sailplan aside). I think allowing only a digital compass and not a GPS or computer is a good route to go.

I am a little unsure about cameras. It doesn't really add any advantage during a race, and in fact could be a distraction. However I suppose it could be argued as giving someone an advantage in the protest room. I'm not sure if sailing rules in general allow for instant replay. Regardless, I voted for it.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
#5
Have been thinking about these a few days... and still not quite sure.

Boat or body mounted camera: yes, because why not. Protest committees may or may not use the footage as evidence, just like now with video shot from race committee or coach boats.

Shock cord inhaul: don't know. Replacing a detailed rule text with a vague one isn't necessarily a good idea. The stated reason, to remove attachment point restrictions, isn't very convincing. Does the boat become any better if you tie the inhaul somewhere else than the boom cleat?

Adjustable hiking strap: basically yes, cool idea, but again the rule is vaguely written and doesn't really say what it means. Can you use the one allowed shackle to attach the cleat to an eyestrap? Is a trapeze style Clamcleat with a roller allowed?

Electronic digital compass: in practice, this would mean that the Raymarine Micro compass (formerly TackTick) would become standard equipment like in almost all other classes. Looking at my national dealer's price list, it's 365.80 € for the base unit only. The deck mount (which you would use in the Laser) costs 68.20 - and that's for a very simple piece of plastic. Allowing overpriced equipment doesn't sound smart (yes, carbon tillers should have been banned around 1997), but am I a luddite if I vote no? Probably. :cool:
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
#6
Yes, I voted in favor, but now that I see the price tag (over $400) for the Micro compass I am wondering about my sanity (and wallet).
I typically sail on protected waters where a compass is more of a distraction than an actual help. I guess that for open water racing I will continue to rig up my analog compass, old eyes notwithstanding.


It would be great of course if a lesser expensive digital compass would be available.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
#8
The Nautalytics (digital magnetic compass for the sport of sailing) looks good, but doesn't include a timer, and seems to be available only through the manufacturer itself (and APS). Add shipping + taxes + duty and it's in the same price range as the Raymarine Micro. (Which really shouldn't be called TackTick anymore. It's the same product.)

(Correction: the Raymarine deck mount for the Micro is not plastic but metallic. Massively overpriced anyway.)
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
#10
From a former measurer's perspective:

Whilst I'm in favour of permitting digital compasses, I can see that a measurer will need to know the capability of every digital compass on the market, both currently and what's available in the future. I'd rather that the bullet is bitten and that everything is permitted or keep the status quo. Why make a rule that cannot be really policed?

Cameras, the rule is to vague, where can the camera be mounted? I've seen tripod systems hanging more than a metre/yard off the transom, also on interpreting the rule, cameras are not permitted on the spars. The location could impact on the right of way rules.

I haul shock cord, sensible change. To many boats were failing to rig it legally and it was easy as a measurer to miss that it wasn't legal, even though there was little advantage.

Hiking Strap, OK. I can see someone trying to mount the cleat on the strap and the first part of the rule doesn't prevent it. Without carefully reading the rules, I suspect the cleat could even be mounted on the deck.
Note: I've very quickly responded here, without spending a thoroughly reading through the class rules.




 

torrid

Just sailing
Thread starter #11
Spending $400 on a digital compass wouldn't make the owner of a proper yacht blink, nor somebody with a high-performance trap/foily thing.

I don't know where other classes stand on digital compasses, and of course the number of Lasers racing are nowhere near what they used to be. However, it looks to me like a new market has opened up for a more affordable digital compass solution.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
#12
Just happened to realize that it's the last day of voting. So... I voted "yes" for the camera & compass, and "no" for the "string" rule changes (basically to protest the bad rule-writing).
I don't know where other classes stand on digital compasses
Practically all allow them. If you're active in multiple classes, you can use the same compass in all of them, and this will likely include the Laser in the near future.
 

torrid

Just sailing
Thread starter #15
They have to verify that everyone who voted is a fully paid class member. I imagine it will take some time for all of the NAs to respond.
 

torrid

Just sailing
Thread starter #17
Looks like the only games in town right now are the Nautalytics and Tack Tic Micro. I'm curious to see what sort of mounting brackets people come up with for the Laser.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
#18
Still no word on the ILCA site. It's interesting that we repeatedly hear first about equipment changes from dealers or, like now, regional authorities.
Looks like the only games in town right now are the Nautalytics and Tack Tic Micro.
There's the Velocitek Shift, too: 649 € at my local store (lowered from 799). Shift - Tactical Compass | Velocitek
(And once again, the Raymarine Micro hasn't been called for years what a lot of people still call it :rolleyes: )
I'm curious to see what sort of mounting brackets people come up with for the Laser.
I would go for an offset mount so that it wouldn't interfere with the centreboard elastic. No problem with globes but now we will have rectangles.
 
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torrid

Just sailing
Thread starter #19
I would go for an offset mount so that it wouldn't interfere with the centreboard elastic. No problem with globes but now we will have rectangles.
I run my elastic all to one side which creates separate issues, but I'm used to dealing with them.

I was thinking I could adapt the existing spider and base for my Silva tactical compass, but I've had it a long time. It is just about an a heirloom that I don't want to destroy. The base has two very carefully drilled holes which were created for the updated rigging back in 2001 or so.
 

torrid

Just sailing
Thread starter #20
There's the Velocitek Shift, too: 649 € at my local store (lowered from 799). Shift - Tactical Compass | Velocitek
(And once again, the Raymarine Micro hasn't been called for years what a lot of people still call it :rolleyes: )
That one does not appear to have any GPS in it, but it does have the ability to store a heading and show +/- degrees for lifts and headers. That would make me think it violates the "wind direction" wording of section (d) from the new rule.

(d) A compass or timing device must not be capable of displaying, delivering, transmitting, receiving, calculating, correlating or storing information about wind speed, wind direction, boat speed or boat position.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
#21
The Shift comes with a sticker with which you can cover the "illegal" information, but I guess the "must not be capable" phrase overrides that. Thanks for pointing out.
 

torrid

Just sailing
Thread starter #22
I didn't see that. It says it is static-cling, which I means it can be applied and removed at will. I'd like to get AlanD's opinion, though I think he already stated it:

From a former measurer's perspective:

Whilst I'm in favour of permitting digital compasses, I can see that a measurer will need to know the capability of every digital compass on the market, both currently and what's available in the future. I'd rather that the bullet is bitten and that everything is permitted or keep the status quo. Why make a rule that cannot be really policed?​

 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
#23
I didn't see that. It says it is static-cling, which I means it can be applied and removed at will. I'd like to get AlanD's opinion, though I think he already stated it:


Pretty simple, just because you can't see it does not mean it is not capable. It is therefore illegal in my opinion. I'm not in any rush to change from my Silva compass and I dread the day when it dies and I need to switch to the newer dual numbered card.
 
#25
That one does not appear to have any GPS in it, but it does have the ability to store a heading and show +/- degrees for lifts and headers. That would make me think it violates the "wind direction" wording of section (d) from the new rule.

(d) A compass or timing device must not be capable of displaying, delivering, transmitting, receiving, calculating, correlating or storing information about wind speed, wind direction, boat speed or boat position.


TackTick Micro Compass - Compass Unit Only

In competitive sailing, being able to react quickly to a change in wind conditions can mean the difference between finding yourself in the front of the pack or being the last ones back to the dock. The wireless Micro Compass by Raymarine can help you achieve that competitive advantage.

This waterproof, self-contained compass fits the bill for dinghies and sport boats. Large twin display with battery level indicator. A lithium battery works in conjunction with a small fixed solar panel, providing you with of 200 hours of autonomous use. Three choices of data display - compass heading, tactical compass scale and race countdown timer. Because headers and lifts are not displayed, most one design classes will allow this compass.

Key Features:

  • No wires or connections to make
  • Can show compass heading, tactical compass scale and a race countdown timer
  • Simple to set-up and use
  • Waterproof (submersible to 10m)
  • Shock Resistant
  • Lightweight only 153g (0.34lbs)
  • Ultra wide viewing angles
  • Battery level indicator
  • Precise to 1 degree
  • Easy to read large digits
 
#27
Does anyone have any ideas about rigging the hikingstrap now that the rule has changed?

Can we mount the tac-tick on the mast? Or are we going to have to re-write the new rule to allow that?
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
#28
Does anyone have any ideas about rigging the hikingstrap now that the rule has changed?
Yes. There was a picture of a suggested setup included in the voting form, but that's gone offline now. It had the line going through the mounting holes of a 211 Mk I Clamcleat (similar to the traveller cleat), with a stopper knot or two to keep the cleat sliding on the line, and a shackle as an aft fairlead.

As noted before, the rule text isn't very specific. It doesn't clearly say if you can use the one allowed shackle to attach the cleat to a cockpit eye (which I would do), neither does it mention any characteristics of the cleat (built-in fairleads, rollers, etc?). Of course, some model of Clamcleat is a natural choice here, but I was thinking if a Spinlock might work as well?

Can we mount the tac-tick on the mast? Or are we going to have to re-write the new rule to allow that?
A compass (electronic or not) may still be mounted only on "any part of the deck or the cockpit". And it would make extremely little sense to mount one on a rotating mast anyway ;)
 
#29
I have to disagree here, the Tac-Tick has two faces, so one should be visible from either gybe. My concern would be the Cunningham and outhaul fouling with it. However, a properly designed mast bracket would alleviate that.

A mast mount would benefit light air sailing.
Getting the compass off the deck would reclaim lost real-estate. Sitting in front of the dagger board would be much easier.

Mast mounting the compass would keep the daggarboard bungee clear! Also it would protect the compass from being knocked loose from Velcro mounts. The compass on the deck fouls easily with the vang tail attached to the dagger board too.

Does anyone recall why the rule was written to exclude mast brackets to begin with?
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
#30
I have to disagree here, the Tac-Tick has two faces, so one should be visible from either gybe. My concern would be the Cunningham and outhaul fouling with it. However, a properly designed mast bracket would alleviate that.

A mast mount would benefit light air sailing.
Getting the compass off the deck would reclaim lost real-estate. Sitting in front of the dagger board would be much easier.

Mast mounting the compass would keep the daggarboard bungee clear! Also it would protect the compass from being knocked loose from Velcro mounts. The compass on the deck fouls easily with the vang tail attached to the dagger board too.

Does anyone recall why the rule was written to exclude mast brackets to begin with?
If you look at the last issue of The Laser Sailor you'll see a picture of the deck mounted/approved digital device. It's really very clean, clear of control lines and takes up no deck real estate.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
#31
Jecoolidge2, you're missing the whole point. Hint: you want the compass to tell what direction the bow is pointing... not the forward edge of the mast :rolleyes:

(Fun fact: I've actually seen someone do it - a German girl at a Youth Worlds a long time ago duct taped a big Silva with a mast bracket onto her Radial mast. She actually won that regatta, and went on to have a successful sailing career as an adult. Lesson learned: even the best sailors do very stupid things which no one should blindly copy.)
 
#32
Lesson learned: even the best sailors do very stupid things which no one should blindly copy.

I don't know about you LaLi, but velcro-ing a compass to the Laser, is something I would not stand behind. ;)
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
#33
velcro-ing a compass to the Laser, is something I would not stand behind.
What do you mean? That's how it has been done for ages. The velcro just has to support the weight of the assembly (should it turn upside down), and if that fails, the control lines keep it from separating from the boat.
That bracket looks actually pretty cool; as I said earlier, I'd prefer an offset mount to clear the centreboard elastic, which is never shown in pictures taken on land.

(Small correction: the girl I mentioned in post #31 didn't win the Youth Worlds, she finished third. Misread the awful WS result archives. Doesn't change the story though.)
 

torrid

Just sailing
Thread starter #34
Would the class rules allow for a gyroscopically-stablized self-tacking mast mount for your compass?

Seriously, I hope they come up with something similar to the white plastic spider. I’ve used it for 20 years with no trouble with my Silva/Nexus.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
#35
There was a picture of a suggested setup included in the voting form, but that's gone offline now. It had the line going through the mounting holes of a 211 Mk I Clamcleat (similar to the traveller cleat), with a stopper knot or two to keep the cleat sliding on the line, and a shackle as an aft fairlead.
I believe that it's the same picture (the one with the yellow line) that is now on this page: New hiking strap support line rigging

I incorrectly remembered that the cleat was tied to the line; both pictured systems assume that just passing the line through the cleat screw holes creates enough friction to keep the cleat in place. (I'm not totally convinced.)

What I'd like to know is whether certain Clamcleat accessories are allowed... such as the bolt-on rope guide (would it count as the "ring" or a part of the cleat?):



Or an "Aero" base:

 
#36
Would the class rules allow for a gyroscopically-stablized self-tacking mast mount for your compass?

Seriously, I hope they come up with something similar to the white plastic spider. I’ve used it for 20 years with no trouble with my Silva/Nexus.


I am in the process of making mounts for the Tactic I will have a picture next week
 
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