Ban Coach / Nannie Boats?? Already Illegal?

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by gouvernail, Oct 3, 2007.

  1. Michelle

    Michelle New Member

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    OK, I'm at the Trials this year without coach support, and it's not so bad. The event organisers have made a point of having a good detailed weather forecast posted every morning where we all can read it before racing, and there is a Vanguard rep on the water to fix whatever may break on your brand new charter boat out there on the course so you can keep racing(Va. No food or water is provided, but the race days aren't too long. Not having a water boat is weird becuse I'm from Florida where it is hot and a water boat is standard equipment, but whatever. The weather has been moderate so far, and I have friends out there who will stash water and powerbars for me if I ask.

    That I won't do as well as Paige, Anna, Sarah, etc., duhh. I don't think there is much we can do about folks having an advantge without making absurd rules, which seems to be what Ross is getting at with his sarcastic post. Their advantage goes way beyond what is happening on race day, anyways.

    Regatta organizers could provide the necessities (food, water, breakdown pit-stop, weather reports, tow in/out in adverse conditons) and anything beyond that is luxury. Getting a tow back when the wind dies to nothing and there is an outgoing tide: necessity. Having a warm coat in between races: luxury.
     
  2. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Yes, Ross did post his absurd rant over on sailing Anarchy where I started a thread just like this one.

    I also posted a reply over there both to him and to all those of you who would rather argue than discuss what I am attempting to discuss.

    Ross' rant contributes nothing to the discussion. It isn't even particulary clever.

    He left out blurred vision goggles, fake blubber for bellies, falsies for all the guys, enhancement for all but the most endowed, wigs, strap on beards, and brains for all the teenage boys.

    But I digress....

    I believe Personal Outside Assistance should be defined and regulated.

    NORs should announce which level of assistance will be provided and which level of personal will be legal during the event.

    This is not that hard to comprehend.

    Your babies will not drown!!!
     
  3. Ross B

    Ross B Guest


    Gov, I can only be on top of so much around here!

    I mean come on, being the psychotic voice of reason has it's disadvantages.... there aren't many of us..
     
  4. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    I wonder if there might be an element of those "with" being worried that their performances might not be "up-to-scratch" it they did not have this additional support. Looking at some of the posts here I certainly think some are reacting that way.

    Maybe there is a case to say that if these people need such assistance to give an acceptable performance then .....

    It is certainly disappointing that people really cannot see the difference between being coached and competing.

    Ian
     
  5. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    tell that to all the olympic sailors and world champs
     
  6. sailchris

    sailchris Member

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    That's exactly what we ARE doing. We are suggesting that perhaps one of the reasons for the proliferation of Mommy boats at top regattas has to do with the fear among competitors that they will be at a disadvantage without them. It this is even partially true, then it supports our position that Mommy boats provide an unfair advantage.
     
  7. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    The thing is, they arent absolutly necessary, and everyone knows it. You can go out and win a race and have a coach boat waiting for you. And the next day you can do the same without. Their just nice to have.
     
  8. Chainsaw

    Chainsaw Brmmm Brmmm

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    The example of the course that was an hour away by boat (laser) makes me wonder - anyone asked to sail for an hour before even reaching the course or race, while another need not to is going to be at a disadvantage.

    Did anyone protest that competitor/s?
     
  9. sailchris

    sailchris Member

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    In that case, let's just ban them outright. Ross (a well known Olympic campaigner ;)) agrees that they are not necessary, and many rank-and-file class members see them as an unfair advantage. An outright ban sounds like the right decision here.
     
  10. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    did you see that I said they are just nice to have? It's nice to have all your extra crap out there, and someone that can provide an opinion on how your doing, if your sucking as much as you think you are, shouldent have gone left, etc...

    but if you wanna ban it outright, I think it would be better to follow the method I stated earlier above. I mean come on, fresh boat evey race, can't get much better than that.
     
  11. sailchris

    sailchris Member

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    Ross, your personal brand of logic defies argument. It would also be nice to have a motor to help me go faster in light air. It wouldn't be necessary, and I could win races without it, but it would be nice to have.

    Just because something is "nice to have" and not "absolutely necessary" does not mean that it does not also provide an unfair advantage.

    The intention of the Laser class is to allow racing between sailors, not between sailors' bank accounts, coaches, parents, etc. Mommy boats interfere with the ability of non-Mommy boat sailors to race against Mommy boat sailors. You can have all the coaching you want before the regatta (just like you can buy all the new gear you want before the regatta), but during the regatta you are stuck with what you've got with no outside assistance.
     
  12. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    but doesnt the person with the brand new sail have a clear advantage over the person with the 20 year old sail that is no able to buy a new one. Under your system, the people with new sails should have points added to their score, or be banned from the race because they have a clear advantage, and this goes for new sail, hulls, or even the new rigging, some still consider it to be an unfair advantage
     
  13. sailchris

    sailchris Member

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    No. I am not advocating Laser class socialism. New sails are allowed; they are legal under the class rules, just as the new rigging is legal. When you decide to sail in the Laser class, you know that you can purchase the newest class legal equipment if you want it. You also know that no one else can purchase better class legal equipment than you can. Mommy boats are an aberration, an unnecessary perk. They provide assistance where no assistance should be needed, and although they can technically be purchased by any competitor, they should not be standard equipment. They go against the fundamental nature of single-handed one-design racing in the Laser class -- competition between individual sailors without recourse to ever-fancier equipment and modifications.
     
  14. SailNC

    SailNC New Member

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    Beautiful execution of a Straw Man attack Ross! By exaggerating and misrepresenting both sides of the issue you make it self evident that that only solution is to allow coach boats to help their students cheat. Bravo!
     
  15. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Ross, I think you are continuing to fail to grasp what people are saying (though maybe its deliberate). Some people try to destroy a debate they are losing by taking it to a "logical extreme" (though logic is not always involved). It is a obvious and childish ploy that is easily spotted.

    Debating about new or old sails and fresh hulls for everybody every race is irrelevant to the debate (and if you do not understand that - well of course you do).

    It is actually a pity that somebody tries to destroy what was a good and sensible debate. One can only ask why he is doing this (though I guess it's pretty obvious).

    Ian
     
  16. Chainsaw

    Chainsaw Brmmm Brmmm

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    Wait a second here, no one (not even ross) is destroying debate here. Even exagerations and strawmen arguments highlight debatable points.

    i.e.

    Levels of advantage.

    Is a new sail as much of an advantage as being towed to a course set 5 miles away?
     
  17. sailchris

    sailchris Member

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    Probably, maybe, who cares?
    We all know that using a new sail is allowed in the rules. What we are arguing is that Mommy boats and the assistance they provide, which are not explicitly allowed in the rules, should be illegal because their use goes against the spirit of single-handed one-design competition.
     
  18. Chainsaw

    Chainsaw Brmmm Brmmm

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    So does the idea of a RC having independance in chosing the shape, location and length of a course.

    The ideas being explored here remain in a grey zone of consensus. Obviously the use of mommie boats is starting to leave that consensus.
     
  19. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    How about have the Governing Rules Body decide up it, such as USAiling, or ISAF? As you've probably guessed, I think it would be wrong for something such as this to be decided up my a class association.
     
  20. sailchris

    sailchris Member

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    Huh? The RC always has that independence. How does that affect the spirit of competition?
     

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