Class Politics Ban Coach / Nannie Boats?? Already Illegal?

etc etc...

fairness

etc...

equality

...These are what I believe to the basic guidelines for if you want racing to be as fair and equal as possible. If you do it any other way, its just not fair
...This message has been a party political broadcast from The Peoples Communist Republic of Orange County...

:D


:cool:


I think if you have to go that far then the class has provided itself with ample examples of the "cheating" that its own rulebook goes to nearly unintelligent lengths to spell out.
 
hey, like I said, any other way, and its not fair.

everything is provided for, and you follow the rules to a dot, exercise, diet, etc..
no one would have any advantage

can anyone else think of a perfect way to do it?
 
can anyone else think of a perfect way to do it?
Yes,

restricted fleet sizes, more attention to course placement, regatta organisation and location. That shifts the emphasis from regulating the competitor to having the comittee use the tools they already have and making the life of the competitor easier instead of making their own life easier. That's not to say all RC's and events are run by lazy bums.
 
or you could do that, what ever works lol

so then what, no fleet bigger than 10 boats?
 
OK, I'm at the Trials this year without coach support, and it's not so bad. The event organisers have made a point of having a good detailed weather forecast posted every morning where we all can read it before racing, and there is a Vanguard rep on the water to fix whatever may break on your brand new charter boat out there on the course so you can keep racing(Va. No food or water is provided, but the race days aren't too long. Not having a water boat is weird becuse I'm from Florida where it is hot and a water boat is standard equipment, but whatever. The weather has been moderate so far, and I have friends out there who will stash water and powerbars for me if I ask.

That I won't do as well as Paige, Anna, Sarah, etc., duhh. I don't think there is much we can do about folks having an advantge without making absurd rules, which seems to be what Ross is getting at with his sarcastic post. Their advantage goes way beyond what is happening on race day, anyways.

Regatta organizers could provide the necessities (food, water, breakdown pit-stop, weather reports, tow in/out in adverse conditons) and anything beyond that is luxury. Getting a tow back when the wind dies to nothing and there is an outgoing tide: necessity. Having a warm coat in between races: luxury.
 
Yes, Ross did post his absurd rant over on sailing Anarchy where I started a thread just like this one.

I also posted a reply over there both to him and to all those of you who would rather argue than discuss what I am attempting to discuss.

Ross' rant contributes nothing to the discussion. It isn't even particulary clever.

He left out blurred vision goggles, fake blubber for bellies, falsies for all the guys, enhancement for all but the most endowed, wigs, strap on beards, and brains for all the teenage boys.

But I digress....

I believe Personal Outside Assistance should be defined and regulated.

NORs should announce which level of assistance will be provided and which level of personal will be legal during the event.

This is not that hard to comprehend.

Your babies will not drown!!!
 
He left out blurred vision goggles, fake blubber for bellies, falsies for all the guys, enhancement for all but the most endowed, wigs, strap on beards, and brains for all the teenage boys.


Gov, I can only be on top of so much around here!

I mean come on, being the psychotic voice of reason has it's disadvantages.... there aren't many of us..
 
I wonder if there might be an element of those "with" being worried that their performances might not be "up-to-scratch" it they did not have this additional support. Looking at some of the posts here I certainly think some are reacting that way.

Maybe there is a case to say that if these people need such assistance to give an acceptable performance then .....

It is certainly disappointing that people really cannot see the difference between being coached and competing.

Ian
 
I wonder if there might be an element of those "with" being worried that their performances might not be "up-to-scratch" it they did not have this additional support. Looking at some of the posts here I certainly think some are reacting that way.

Maybe there is a case to say that if these people need such assistance to give an acceptable performance then .....



Ian

tell that to all the olympic sailors and world champs
 
tell that to all the olympic sailors and world champs

That's exactly what we ARE doing. We are suggesting that perhaps one of the reasons for the proliferation of Mommy boats at top regattas has to do with the fear among competitors that they will be at a disadvantage without them. It this is even partially true, then it supports our position that Mommy boats provide an unfair advantage.
 
The thing is, they arent absolutly necessary, and everyone knows it. You can go out and win a race and have a coach boat waiting for you. And the next day you can do the same without. Their just nice to have.
 
I wonder if there might be an element of those "with" being worried that their performances might not be "up-to-scratch" it they did not have this additional support. Looking at some of the posts here I certainly think some are reacting that way.

Maybe there is a case to say that if these people need such assistance to give an acceptable performance then .....

The example of the course that was an hour away by boat (laser) makes me wonder - anyone asked to sail for an hour before even reaching the course or race, while another need not to is going to be at a disadvantage.

Did anyone protest that competitor/s?
 
The thing is, they arent absolutly necessary, and everyone knows it. You can go out and win a race and have a coach boat waiting for you. And the next day you can do the same without. Their just nice to have.

In that case, let's just ban them outright. Ross (a well known Olympic campaigner ;)) agrees that they are not necessary, and many rank-and-file class members see them as an unfair advantage. An outright ban sounds like the right decision here.
 
did you see that I said they are just nice to have? It's nice to have all your extra crap out there, and someone that can provide an opinion on how your doing, if your sucking as much as you think you are, shouldent have gone left, etc...

but if you wanna ban it outright, I think it would be better to follow the method I stated earlier above. I mean come on, fresh boat evey race, can't get much better than that.
 
did you see that I said they are just nice to have? It's nice to have all your extra crap out there, and someone that can provide an opinion on how your doing, if your sucking as much as you think you are, shouldent have gone left, etc...

but if you wanna ban it outright, I think it would be better to follow the method I stated earlier above. I mean come on, fresh boat evey race, can't get much better than that.

Ross, your personal brand of logic defies argument. It would also be nice to have a motor to help me go faster in light air. It wouldn't be necessary, and I could win races without it, but it would be nice to have.

Just because something is "nice to have" and not "absolutely necessary" does not mean that it does not also provide an unfair advantage.

The intention of the Laser class is to allow racing between sailors, not between sailors' bank accounts, coaches, parents, etc. Mommy boats interfere with the ability of non-Mommy boat sailors to race against Mommy boat sailors. You can have all the coaching you want before the regatta (just like you can buy all the new gear you want before the regatta), but during the regatta you are stuck with what you've got with no outside assistance.
 
but doesnt the person with the brand new sail have a clear advantage over the person with the 20 year old sail that is no able to buy a new one. Under your system, the people with new sails should have points added to their score, or be banned from the race because they have a clear advantage, and this goes for new sail, hulls, or even the new rigging, some still consider it to be an unfair advantage
 
but doesnt the person with the brand new sail have a clear advantage over the person with the 20 year old sail that is no able to buy a new one. Under your system, the people with new sails should have points added to their score, or be banned from the race because they have a clear advantage, and this goes for new sail, hulls, or even the new rigging, some still consider it to be an unfair advantage

No. I am not advocating Laser class socialism. New sails are allowed; they are legal under the class rules, just as the new rigging is legal. When you decide to sail in the Laser class, you know that you can purchase the newest class legal equipment if you want it. You also know that no one else can purchase better class legal equipment than you can. Mommy boats are an aberration, an unnecessary perk. They provide assistance where no assistance should be needed, and although they can technically be purchased by any competitor, they should not be standard equipment. They go against the fundamental nature of single-handed one-design racing in the Laser class -- competition between individual sailors without recourse to ever-fancier equipment and modifications.
 
... I think it would be better to follow the method I stated earlier above. I mean come on, fresh boat evey race, can't get much better than that.

but doesnt the person with the brand new sail have a clear advantage over the person with the 20 year old sail that is no able to buy a new one. Under your system, the people with new sails should have points added to their score, or be banned from the race because they have a clear advantage, and this goes for new sail, hulls, or even the new rigging, some still consider it to be an unfair advantage

Beautiful execution of a Straw Man attack Ross! By exaggerating and misrepresenting both sides of the issue you make it self evident that that only solution is to allow coach boats to help their students cheat. Bravo!
 
Ross, I think you are continuing to fail to grasp what people are saying (though maybe its deliberate). Some people try to destroy a debate they are losing by taking it to a "logical extreme" (though logic is not always involved). It is a obvious and childish ploy that is easily spotted.

Debating about new or old sails and fresh hulls for everybody every race is irrelevant to the debate (and if you do not understand that - well of course you do).

It is actually a pity that somebody tries to destroy what was a good and sensible debate. One can only ask why he is doing this (though I guess it's pretty obvious).

Ian
 
Wait a second here, no one (not even ross) is destroying debate here. Even exagerations and strawmen arguments highlight debatable points.

i.e.

Levels of advantage.

Is a new sail as much of an advantage as being towed to a course set 5 miles away?
 
Wait a second here, no one (not even ross) is destroying debate here. Even exagerations and strawmen arguments highlight debatable points.

i.e.

Levels of advantage.

Is a new sail as much of an advantage as being towed to a course set 5 miles away?

Probably, maybe, who cares?
We all know that using a new sail is allowed in the rules. What we are arguing is that Mommy boats and the assistance they provide, which are not explicitly allowed in the rules, should be illegal because their use goes against the spirit of single-handed one-design competition.
 
What we are arguing is that Mommy boats and the assistance they provide, which are not explicitly allowed in the rules, should be illegal because their use goes against the spirit of single-handed one-design competition.

So does the idea of a RC having independance in chosing the shape, location and length of a course.

The ideas being explored here remain in a grey zone of consensus. Obviously the use of mommie boats is starting to leave that consensus.
 
How about have the Governing Rules Body decide up it, such as USAiling, or ISAF? As you've probably guessed, I think it would be wrong for something such as this to be decided up my a class association.
 
Huh? The RC always has that independence. How does that affect the spirit of competition?
Think about it. One design rules - what do they seek to control?

and why can't they also control the courses?

and why don't they?

Consensus. Best practice. Practicallity. All unregulated.

In a similar sense, the use of mommie boats works on consensus. If that consensus is broken through extreme use, it will have to be regulated or banned. If RC's started laying obscure courses that annoyed enough competitors, courses would be regulated too.
 
How about have the Governing Rules Body decide up it, such as USAiling, or ISAF? As you've probably guessed, I think it would be wrong for something such as this to be decided up my a class association.

The Governing Body can, should, and has provided general guidelines. In turn, the class association has a responsibility to create appropriate rules for our particular class. The class rules that govern coach boats in Lasers should probably be different from those that govern coach boats in Optimists, for example. Then, individual organizers should be able to further restrict the use of coach boats at particular regattas.
 
Think about it. One design rules - what do they seek to control?

and why can't they also control the courses?

and why don't they?

Consensus. Best practice. Practicallity. All unregulated.

In a similar sense, the use of mommie boats works on consensus. If that consensus is broken through extreme use, it will have to be regulated or banned. If RC's started laying obscure courses that annoyed enough competitors, courses would be regulated too.

True. Good point. But the RC is generally an independent party that sets courses that are the same for all competitors (i.e. not designed to be an advantage for one competitor over the others). The use of coach boats by an individual affects that individual's ability to compete vis-a-vis the other competitors.
 
I have no issue with what USailing set forth for trials, it seems to work, is usually what other clubs follow. It still escapes me as to why stricter rules need to be acquired for the Laser Class (well I've read why, I just think it's pointless)
I mean seriously, a race can not be won or lost by a coach boat, the sailor still has to do the work himself, and get the boat around the course, the coach can not sail the boat for him.

Also on the side note of the RC, ever notice how some clubs still do different start sequences? some do 3 minutes, some 4, some 5, some do different flags... IS it written in the Laser Rules exactly what start sequence we use? Do it also say anything about exactly what courses we follow, how long they are, and how many a day? just wondering
 
... the RC is generally an independent party that sets courses that are the same for all competitors (i.e. not designed to be an advantage for one competitor over the others). The use of coach boats by an individual affects that individual's ability to compete vis-a-vis the other competitors.
this is exactly the point. Mommie boats are an independent party (within guidelines) just like RC.

Why are they abusing their position? This issue should be able to resolved without regulation. The rules apply to sportsmanship. If you break a rule purposely you are cheating as much as if you break a rule of when boats meet purposely without taking a turn. So are mommie boats already covered by sportsmanship rules? Who will be the first to protest a mommie boat? Perhaps that is the practical way forward - start protesting over use of mommie boats?
 
this is exactly the point. Mommie boats are an independent party (within guidelines) just like RC.

Why are they abusing their position? This issue should be able to resolved without regulation. The rules apply to sportsmanship. If you break a rule purposely you are cheating as much as if you break a rule of when boats meet purposely without taking a turn. So are mommie boats already covered by sportsmanship rules? Who will be the first to protest a mommie boat? Perhaps that is the practical way forward - start protesting over use of mommie boats?

I disagree. Mommy boats are not independent. That is exactly the point. They are associated with a particular competitor or group of competitors. They provide outside assistance to that competitor or group of competitors. In extreme cases the assistance they provide is a violation of Rule 41 (Outside Assistance). The RRS also provide that sailing instructions may provide further restrictions on "use of support boats, plastic pools, radios, etc.; on hauling out; and on outside assistance provided to a boat that is not racing."

Interesting side note...why do the rules mention "plastic pools?"
260002_Infl_Ball_Pool.jpg
 
Also on the side note of the RC, ever notice how some clubs still do different start sequences? some do 3 minutes, some 4, some 5, some do different flags... IS it written in the Laser Rules exactly what start sequence we use? Do it also say anything about exactly what courses we follow, how long they are, and how many a day? just wondering

No, they don't. But the sailing instructions for a regatta do.
 
Why are those in favour of the Mommy boats continually trying to divert the discussion. Things about Race Committee independence, comments about "I'll go with what xxx says" (knowing full well what xxx already allows).


In a similar sense, the use of mommie boats works on consensus. If that consensus is broken through extreme use, it will have to be regulated or banned.

Which is what this thread was about. Some felt that the provision of rest and relaxation facilities to the race area and between races is an abuse of the "even playing field" principle. I say "was" about because of the continues attempts to de-rail it by those who I guess use such facilities (or at least have said they do).


If RC's started laying obscure courses that annoyed enough competitors, courses would be regulated too.

I very much doubt it would come to that. People would stop bothering to go to the events (probably giving feedback) so dropping numbers would tell the RC where they were going wrong before regulation became necessary.


And then how is the starting sequence relevant to Mommy boat support ? People just trying to sidetrack the discussion further (or completely missing the point - which would be difficult but I guess possible).


Ian
 
Ross missed a bunch more variables that would have to be equalized to make racing absolutely "fair" in the perfect world.

How about each person's height and weight? If you aren't 6'2" and don't weigh 180lb, do you get to wear leg extensions and extra weight? But if the wind is light, MUST you wear the extra weight? Have liposuction if you're over weight?

Must you only race against people your own age? (in fact, our Master's scoring system does attempt to equalize the age advantage)

If you aren't quite as smart about calling shifts and hitting start lines, or recognizing othe clear advantages, do you get a free brain transplant?

Seriously, in Lasers the boats are as equal as a good one-design rule can make them. The point of limiting what you can do to your Laser has always been to allow everyone to race to the best of their ability, and not have people be able to "buy" an advantage. This way, at lower level events, even older boats are relatively competitive, and sailors on a budget can still go out and race head-to-head with an Olympic caliber sailor.

The support/coach boat is an expensive luxury that DOES give a clear advantage in almost any regatta situation. That's the reason the top sailors all have them. If one guy has one, they all must have one.

I'd be willing to bet that if Michelle thought for a moment she would be in contention to win the right to represent the US at the Olympics, she would have made sure SOMEBODY came out with a boat to support her and wrap that warm coat around her between races.

I drove a support boat shared by two sailors at the '96 Trials in Savannah. Not only did I supply food, drink, clothing, spare parts, repair facilities and moral support for weeks before the regatta I ran practice races, shot video, and towed them in and out every day.

Some of those things are luxuries, sure. But some are necessities. There's no doubt in my mind that any support boat, and especially one with a highly qualified (expensive, paid) coach on board it, gives a clear advantage to the sailor or sailors using it.

Laser racing is as great as it is because of the level playing field the Class provides. Anything that slants the playing field should be controlled if possible to keep the game as good as it is.
 
Ok well call me a crazy old kiwi but I see no derailing going on anywhere.
I don't know whether people are protecting their interests in this thread or not.

The comments about swimming pools, countdown sequences and independence are relevent as analogies to describe concepts.

Now, about the independence thing:

Sailchris says M.B.s are not independent. I'm not convinced, especially if they have a coach on board. Identifying the level of independence is necessary to determine the agreed behaviour of the mommie boats or to lodge a protest.
 

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