Ban Coach / Nannie Boats?? Already Illegal?

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by gouvernail, Oct 3, 2007.

  1. Chainsaw

    Chainsaw Brmmm Brmmm

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Think about it. One design rules - what do they seek to control?

    and why can't they also control the courses?

    and why don't they?

    Consensus. Best practice. Practicallity. All unregulated.

    In a similar sense, the use of mommie boats works on consensus. If that consensus is broken through extreme use, it will have to be regulated or banned. If RC's started laying obscure courses that annoyed enough competitors, courses would be regulated too.
     
  2. sailchris

    sailchris Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    The Governing Body can, should, and has provided general guidelines. In turn, the class association has a responsibility to create appropriate rules for our particular class. The class rules that govern coach boats in Lasers should probably be different from those that govern coach boats in Optimists, for example. Then, individual organizers should be able to further restrict the use of coach boats at particular regattas.
     
  3. sailchris

    sailchris Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    True. Good point. But the RC is generally an independent party that sets courses that are the same for all competitors (i.e. not designed to be an advantage for one competitor over the others). The use of coach boats by an individual affects that individual's ability to compete vis-a-vis the other competitors.
     
  4. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    I have no issue with what USailing set forth for trials, it seems to work, is usually what other clubs follow. It still escapes me as to why stricter rules need to be acquired for the Laser Class (well I've read why, I just think it's pointless)
    I mean seriously, a race can not be won or lost by a coach boat, the sailor still has to do the work himself, and get the boat around the course, the coach can not sail the boat for him.

    Also on the side note of the RC, ever notice how some clubs still do different start sequences? some do 3 minutes, some 4, some 5, some do different flags... IS it written in the Laser Rules exactly what start sequence we use? Do it also say anything about exactly what courses we follow, how long they are, and how many a day? just wondering
     
  5. Chainsaw

    Chainsaw Brmmm Brmmm

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    this is exactly the point. Mommie boats are an independent party (within guidelines) just like RC.

    Why are they abusing their position? This issue should be able to resolved without regulation. The rules apply to sportsmanship. If you break a rule purposely you are cheating as much as if you break a rule of when boats meet purposely without taking a turn. So are mommie boats already covered by sportsmanship rules? Who will be the first to protest a mommie boat? Perhaps that is the practical way forward - start protesting over use of mommie boats?
     
  6. sailchris

    sailchris Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I disagree. Mommy boats are not independent. That is exactly the point. They are associated with a particular competitor or group of competitors. They provide outside assistance to that competitor or group of competitors. In extreme cases the assistance they provide is a violation of Rule 41 (Outside Assistance). The RRS also provide that sailing instructions may provide further restrictions on "use of support boats, plastic pools, radios, etc.; on hauling out; and on outside assistance provided to a boat that is not racing."

    Interesting side note...why do the rules mention "plastic pools?"
    [​IMG]
     
  7. sailchris

    sailchris Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    No, they don't. But the sailing instructions for a regatta do.
     
  8. Deimos

    Deimos Member

    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Why are those in favour of the Mommy boats continually trying to divert the discussion. Things about Race Committee independence, comments about "I'll go with what xxx says" (knowing full well what xxx already allows).


    Which is what this thread was about. Some felt that the provision of rest and relaxation facilities to the race area and between races is an abuse of the "even playing field" principle. I say "was" about because of the continues attempts to de-rail it by those who I guess use such facilities (or at least have said they do).


    I very much doubt it would come to that. People would stop bothering to go to the events (probably giving feedback) so dropping numbers would tell the RC where they were going wrong before regulation became necessary.


    And then how is the starting sequence relevant to Mommy boat support ? People just trying to sidetrack the discussion further (or completely missing the point - which would be difficult but I guess possible).


    Ian
     
  9. dyzzypyxxy

    dyzzypyxxy Member

    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ross missed a bunch more variables that would have to be equalized to make racing absolutely "fair" in the perfect world.

    How about each person's height and weight? If you aren't 6'2" and don't weigh 180lb, do you get to wear leg extensions and extra weight? But if the wind is light, MUST you wear the extra weight? Have liposuction if you're over weight?

    Must you only race against people your own age? (in fact, our Master's scoring system does attempt to equalize the age advantage)

    If you aren't quite as smart about calling shifts and hitting start lines, or recognizing othe clear advantages, do you get a free brain transplant?

    Seriously, in Lasers the boats are as equal as a good one-design rule can make them. The point of limiting what you can do to your Laser has always been to allow everyone to race to the best of their ability, and not have people be able to "buy" an advantage. This way, at lower level events, even older boats are relatively competitive, and sailors on a budget can still go out and race head-to-head with an Olympic caliber sailor.

    The support/coach boat is an expensive luxury that DOES give a clear advantage in almost any regatta situation. That's the reason the top sailors all have them. If one guy has one, they all must have one.

    I'd be willing to bet that if Michelle thought for a moment she would be in contention to win the right to represent the US at the Olympics, she would have made sure SOMEBODY came out with a boat to support her and wrap that warm coat around her between races.

    I drove a support boat shared by two sailors at the '96 Trials in Savannah. Not only did I supply food, drink, clothing, spare parts, repair facilities and moral support for weeks before the regatta I ran practice races, shot video, and towed them in and out every day.

    Some of those things are luxuries, sure. But some are necessities. There's no doubt in my mind that any support boat, and especially one with a highly qualified (expensive, paid) coach on board it, gives a clear advantage to the sailor or sailors using it.

    Laser racing is as great as it is because of the level playing field the Class provides. Anything that slants the playing field should be controlled if possible to keep the game as good as it is.
     
  10. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    gimme a break here, I can only be on top of so much!:eek:
     
  11. Chainsaw

    Chainsaw Brmmm Brmmm

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ok well call me a crazy old kiwi but I see no derailing going on anywhere.
    I don't know whether people are protecting their interests in this thread or not.

    The comments about swimming pools, countdown sequences and independence are relevent as analogies to describe concepts.

    Now, about the independence thing:

    Sailchris says M.B.s are not independent. I'm not convinced, especially if they have a coach on board. Identifying the level of independence is necessary to determine the agreed behaviour of the mommie boats or to lodge a protest.
     
  12. Chainsaw

    Chainsaw Brmmm Brmmm

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
  13. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    niiiiice
     
  14. dyzzypyxxy

    dyzzypyxxy Member

    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    8
    As far as protesting support boats for providing "outside assistance" it would be REALLY hard to do, I think. Direct contact of any sort - physical or verbal - is illegal between the Prep signal and when the boat finishes, right? So, you're talking about stuff like when the coach tells his protegee' he'll always drive up the favored side of the course, or will anchor to the left or right of the windward mark to indicate which side to take going downwind . . . how the heck do you prove that?

    Some kind of guideline or "directive" in the SI's or Class rules governing - i.e. limiting - the use of support boats is needed to make it possible to actually protest specific behavior. The stuff that really helps, like changes of clothes, food, drinks, advice, and towing to and from are impossible to stop without a rule. What are we going to do when Shark Kahn shows up to a Laser regatta with the 90-ft. yacht with the chef and hot tub out there supporting him. Oh, and Terry Hutchinson on retainer as coach? We'll wait a century if we want US Sailing or ISAF to write us a rule on this.

    As far as the plastic pools reference in the RR's it's for one-design classes like the j's and Melges, that forbid hauling boats between races at the high level events like Key West Race Week. Guys were using plastic pool liners (with algaecide and other chemicals added to the water - where's the EPA when you need 'em) to park their boats in overnight, to prevent algae and stuff growing on the hull. Yes, in 5 days here in Florida and other warm-water venues, you get tiny little barnacles, and algae that's visible in less than 5 days.

    As far as derailment goes, we're just about ready to burst into flames like the train wreck up in Cleveland today. Great pic, Chainsaw
     
  15. Deimos

    Deimos Member

    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    18
    When talking about "an even playing field", if people cannot see the difference between using different starting sequences (where the entire fleet has exactly the same treatment) and use of relaxation/repair/recovery/etc. boats where only the few with adequate resources get the benefit - I am amazed, dumbfounded, etc.

    Am I going mad or do people really not see the difference between some gaining advantage through their Mommy boats and everybody having to face the same starting sequence ??

    Am I living on a different planet ?

    Ian
     
  16. sailchris

    sailchris Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I don't think you understand what the word "independent" means in this context. Yes, they are independent in the sense that they are acting independently from competitors that aren't paying for them, but they are not independent in the way the race committee is independent, i.e. acting on behalf of all competitors equally. Perhaps a better word would be impartial. Mommy boats are not impartial, so they should not be allowed to interfere during a regatta. If the organizers want to provide impartial support boats that serve some of the same functions as Mommy boats, then that's fine. Perhaps that would deal with some of the objections Mommy boat users seem to have about needing a cold drink between races, or somewhere to stash their spraytop.
     
  17. Deimos

    Deimos Member

    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    18
  18. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    38
    That story doesn't make any sense at all. How can it be OK even if she did hit him? Sailors have right of way over non-commercial powerboats. He should have been well out of her way.
     
  19. Chainsaw

    Chainsaw Brmmm Brmmm

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    From a link at the bottom of that page - it explains in better detail:

    [/FONT]

    All the story does really is highlight that dangerous mistakes can be made. But she hasn't proved anything yet and if moommy boats are to be regulated, there will need to be proof.

    There is no concrete proof that using an M.B. will up your performance so much you will win everything. Look at those who use M.B.s and then look at their race results. If I go out tomorrow with an M.B. will I suddenly outsail Ben Ainslie? If I had a coach on board are you telling me he would be necessarily corrupt because he was on an M.B.? Would I do everything he suggested and how could you prove that you knew he suggest cheating to me?

    There are just way too many variables and no proof. I would be against banning something based on heresay and innuendo.

    So far the only easily provable advantage would be in measuring the muscle drain of saling to a course rather than being towed. Prove it - easily enough - and you can regulate that aspect. But sailing is a total sport. You can't win accolades by just being the best sailor. You must be the best person, the best sailor, the best connected, the best funded...

    Gimme proof. Gimme facts. ​
     
  20. Deimos

    Deimos Member

    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    18
    True. You have a highly competent person who is at the helm of a RIB. There are lots of sailboats (windsurfers) or whatever around so how come he causes such a horrific incident. Answer is he was not paying attention on what was happening around him as he was focusing on his student.

    I would say that, were there no coach boats at the windsurfer event there would not have been such a collision. That is pretty black and white. Chainsaw - what sort of proof do you want. Do you want proof the Coach boat hit the windsurfer ? (if you do a bit of research they have already offered massive amounts of damages i.e. accepting they were in the wrong). I cannot understand what you want proven.

    I'm still waiting for them to prove smoking damages your health. Actually we see this all the time - when people don't want something acted on they just demand more and more proof hoping the issue will just go away. In fact its a source of some amusement in Europe.

    Ian
     

Share This Page