Xmas Lasers - questionable marketing

jeffers

Active Member
#7
Sailboats' website says they're still owned by their founders, Tony and Antony Lincoln.
I am told companies house tells a different story. If I had the time and inclination I would look it up myself. As I said this came from a reliable source, does not mean it is accurate though.

It is marketing bull worthy of another major UK dinghy company though.
 
#8
I am told companies house tells a different story. If I had the time and inclination I would look it up myself. As I said this came from a reliable source, does not mean it is accurate though.

It is marketing bull worthy of another major UK dinghy company though.
"Sailboats Limited" shows as recently dissolved.
According to the registration of sailboats.co.uk, the domain name is owned by: "A.T Lincoln & A.W Lincoln t/a Northampton Sail Boats". "Northampton Sailboats Limited". was dissolved in 1991.

So it looks like the business is owned by the two brothers individually, but perhaps the records don't tell the whole story. Northampton Sailboats used to be an awesome store for dinghy equipment -- especially for anyone sailing in the east Midlands.
 
#9
I can't find the same add with description on the sailboats.co.uk website. The pages and descriptions on the website seem fine. Reading the yachts and yachting forum ( http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/fo...ID=1376566&title=nice-new-laser-for-christmas ) it sound like the image came from a e-mail sent out by sailboats.co.uk.

I do think the lighter weight hull and mast rack stuff do go against the one design ideal. Wonder if anybody who received this e-mail will forward to ILCA / UKLA.

There always has to be tolerances, so technically if you go down to the nth degree each boat is different, BUT using these tolerances to sell one boat over another boat - seems wrong.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Thread starter #10
I can't find the same add with description on the sailboats.co.uk website. The pages and descriptions on the website seem fine.
They've deleted all the controversial stuff now! And added, "Note: This is the correct promotion details. All Lasers are strict One Design, produced to one exacting specification worldwide!"

Interesting. What was this all about?
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Thread starter #16
LP(EU) actually intends to import the Z420 Omega built by LP(NA), and you can probably buy one from Sailboats in the foreseeable future. The Omega is apparently some 7 kg lighter than the "regular" Z420 (but still more than 10 kg heavier than the International 420). However, LP doesn't mention anything about mast rake... except it's a "control led to the helm": http://shopeu.laserperformance.com/420-omega/

Sailboats on the other hand features the "optimum rake" nonsense on its Z420 page in boldface: http://www.sailboats.co.uk/laserperformance-420-omega-13705

Conclusion (I think): this whole thing was some stupid Sailboats inside joke which got out of hand and which they now try to get rid of by sticking its literal contents on to another boat they're selling.

Nothing significant. Hopefully.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Thread starter #19
Yes, and the boat with the ultimately optimum rake is 212701. The largest numbers in recent international regattas have been in the 207000s. Also, there's no national code "SP". And the background looks like Greenland.

Weird picture. Torrid, where is it from?
 

torrid

Just sailing
#20
Yes, and the boat with the ultimately optimum rake is 212701. The largest numbers in recent international regattas have been in the 207000s. Also, there's no national code "SP". And the background looks like Greenland.

Weird picture. Torrid, where is it from?
Just something I found with an image search. I had to do a little digging, but you seem to have a good eye. It is from an event called the "Grand Bank Cup". Best I can tell, it is Newfoundland.
 
#21
Laser Radials 212699, 212700 and 212701 are listed in these results from the Hudson YC Fruitbowl in August as representing Yacht Cub de Saint-Pierre. There are also photos of those 3 boats with those sail numbers on the Facebook page of Yacht Club de Saint-Pierre.

Saint-Pierre and Miquelon is an overseas territory of France near Newfoundland, which is presumably why they are using SP as nationality letters, although perhaps they should have used FRA. Still doesn't explain the high numbers.
 
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#22
Top mast didn't last very long...
It's unbelievable they haven't solved this problem yet; all it would take is a sleeve, like it was done for the boom.
The boat is pretty bulletproof otherwise.
BTW, I remember reading somewhere (can't find link) that at the Worlds in Santander they measured all the boats for weight and rake. Results were "secret" though...
In my opinion the quality and consistency of the hulls have improved in the last few years. Leaky boats, inconsistent rake, poorly mounted fittings were the norm early on.

The UK ad is bs; there is no way they made non compliant hulls intentionally, especially with the current legal mess going on. Red hull is definitely not a good idea either....
BTW, in the US you can get a new Laser for $5600 delivered to your door.
Good to see the numbers up.
E
 
#24
BTW, I remember reading somewhere (can't find link) that at the Worlds in Santander they measured all the boats for weight and rake. Results were "secret" though...E
Here's the link: http://www.santander2014.com/uploaded_files/Document_376_20140908130413_en.pdf

With the advert, BS or not, it would be good to see an official response that it is BS. Be great to hear something like: according to the data at the 2014 World Champs in Santander the boats have negligible differences within tight tolerances which according to the results at Santana translated to no detectable performance advantage.

OR, we start thinking that there is a problem and it's being hidden. We can only speculate if the problem is a communication problem or if the class has actual performance issues - or both.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Thread starter #26
Saint-Pierre and Miquelon is an overseas territory of France near Newfoundland, which is presumably why they are using SP as nationality letters, although perhaps they should have used FRA. Still doesn't explain the high numbers.
Yes - the picture posted by torrid has St Pierre island and town in the background. Solved!
Maybe they just have a local tradition of funny sail numbers. The third boat in the picture has 888888. (And even that boat sailed at CORK last year.)

Funny that the BS ad mentions the two things they were measuring at Santander.
Yes. And of all the things on the Z420 ad, the ones that made it to the Laser ad are exactly those that are relevant to the Laser. Had it mentioned "mast ram" or "8:1 jib halyard", no one would question Sailboats' honesty... or incompetence.
 

jeffers

Active Member
#27
Do remember that sail numbers/plaques are issued in batches so it may simply be that they have started their next batch and there are still a load to be built from a different batch with another builder.
 
#28
Interesting (to put it mildly) offer from the official UK dealer for LP: http://www.sailboats.co.uk/festive-red-coloured-christmas-lasers

Check out some of the "Details"...
> Lighter weight hull
> Optimum mast rake - decided by the top sailors
> Selden spars

What is going on? Is this a joke? (I hope it is.)

(Might someone in the UK call "Dan" and ask...?)
Regarding the weight claim; some years ago when I purchased my Laser, when I arrived (at Northampton Lasers's warehouse place), I considered buying a "bicolour" Laser and discussed the pros and cons with the staff and apparently the bi-colour ones are slightly heavier as they use/need a little additional glass/gel inside to maintain strength (only repeating what I was told, not claiming and special knowledge).

So I suspect they could have a "lower weight" hull in that it could be "lower weight" than a normal bi-colour hull though still be within weight for a Laser.

(That said, I still feel such ads contrary to the concept of a Laser - where all boats should be "equal" and the competition is between helms rather than the financial/gear arms race other classes can develop).

Ian
 
#29
After a quick Google, here's something that surprised me:

  • 127 lb hull in perfect condition. Bone dry. No leaks.
  • Mast rake at 12'6" (as measured with a borrowed full rig bottom section)
then:
I was the builder of Laser from 1991-1997 and supplied the Lasers to the 1996 Olympic Games. I sold Sunfish-Laser to Vanguard in 1997. That is all ancient history, but as a former builder, I can offer unique insights into what makes a great Laser. This is a great Laser. We inspected, weighed and measured over 25 new boats before deciding on this one. It has a nice bottom, perfect rake, and the lightest weight I have seen since I built Lasers.
http://www.sailingforums.com/threads/2010-laser-radial-4-7-perfect-mast-rake-only-127-lbs.31778/
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Thread starter #30
... some years ago when I purchased my Laser, when I arrived (at Northampton Lasers's warehouse place), I considered buying a "bicolour" Laser and discussed the pros and cons with the staff and apparently the bi-colour ones are slightly heavier as they use/need a little additional glass/gel inside to maintain strength (only repeating what I was told, not claiming and special knowledge).
This sounds a little strange. My hull is bi-coloured, and the colours definitely overlap below the waterline (you can see it from deep-enough scratches). One would think there is more gelcoat altogether, which would raise the weight by a probably insignificant amount. I see no reason though why there should be more glass and resin as well.

This in turn sounds bad. I wonder if Mr Johnstone would answer a few questions in that thread.
 
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