What the? New questions: Bay Sailing

S

Skipper Johnson

New Member
OK....My first 2 months in the Laser have been interesting to say the least. I have now moved from blissful ignorance to overwhelmed awareness. The more you know the more aware of how little you know!

Our club raced on the bay on the weekend (away from the security of the lake). I now know what waves look like. They added a whole new dimension and a whole new way of potential capsize. It was the first time I had raced against about 10 Lasers.

I actually got a good start but soon noticed although I was pointing about the same height, I did not have the boat speed. I assume this is due to the way I set my boat. I know I had the outhaul too tight and the cunningham all the way on (I was scared that i was going to be overpowered) and the Vang not tight enough. By the way - should the vang always be tight when two blocked when beating, or is this dependant on the wind strength? - I might also be due to having little knowledge about the best way to negotiate a chop and read the shifts.

The top mark and I was in front of 3 Lasers which I where I finished.

Things I need to learn:
  • Roll Tacking
  • How to hold the tiller properly (cant get out of the habit of holding it under hand)
  • Sailing by the lee (total mystery)
  • How to best negotiate runs - head slightly off the wind or straight down wind?
  • How to read the shifts
  • How to gybe without panick
  • How to adjust the outhaul and vang correctly
  • How to ride waves
What I do like though is it seems like an endless challenge to learn and progress. I'm determined to by competitive one day. Im going to try and master one element each time.

Bye for now
 
Re: What the?

Flat side up!

Make it pretty!

When in doubt let it out!!

Ease Hike Trim
 
Skipper J!
I won't bother to overload you in one post. Reading shifts/puffs is somewhat easy. (I say this after nearly 20 years on the water).
First, you have to know what a puff looks like, yes that's right you CAN see the wind, or rather what the wind does to things around you.

Basic; puffs gusts and more wind in general creates more ripples on the water, giving that area of water a darker apperance. when that dark area moves, there's going to be a shift. easy enough right? ok stick with me

Intermediate; well no, we see the wind moving, but how do we know if it's going to be a lift (good) or a header (bad) simple; the direction it's moving. let's say we are close hauled on a starboard tack. you're hiking the boat flat and look to windward and see a dark patch of water (Gust, Puff, etc...) moving down the course and diagonally towards your boat. Well, this is going to be a lift (good thing) the diagonal movement towards your boat means the wind has veered (Northern Hemisphere) to the right temperarily and will allow you to change course a few degrees to the right, pointing your bow closer to the mark (good thing) Now, conversely, if that patch of dark water (puff, gust, etc) is moving diagonally away from you, this is a bad thing, called a header, or more commonly a knock. It's a good idea to tack if you're in an upwind battle or have competition close ahead you're trying to gain on. Oh by the way, HIKE HARDER, if you hike more before the extra wind gets to you, you'll get more power! (yet another good thing)

Semi-Advanced Ok, good, we can now react to the wind changes near us, but how about a little more advanced warning. Easy, look at the clouds, smoke, trees, flags, other boats, whatever you got. These items, when studied between races can give a good indication of what the wind will be doing in the near future. For example; let's say that there are several layers of clouds at differant altitudes, and the lower ones are drifting in nearly the same direction as the surface wind. Now the ones in the layer above that are moving in a differant direction, this indicates that the upper level winds are from a differant direction, and will influence the surface winds to do the same (nature doesn't like strife) Another good one it to look at the smoke or steam from a smokestack ashore, if it trails out over the water, and curves to one direction or the other, that's a great indication of what the surface wind will do as you draw near that part of the shoreline. Also be sure to look at divisions and other classes of boats sailing nearby, if they favor one side of the same course or the other, there has to be a reason right? or if they are further out to sea, that can also be a good indication of upcoming trends.

Advanced; Ok, so now we can see the wind, and we know how to react to it. but what about planning for it? this takes skill and time. First, knowing your area helps. if you know that an east wind tends to shift left in the afternoon, this helps. Local knowledge helps. but lets say you drove a few hours away to compete at that big regatta, and have no local knowledge, you're not SOL. Marine Weather Forecasts are now your good friend. www.weatherunderground.com publishes the NOAA Marine forecast for every square foot of American waters. NOAA weather radio (VHF) also broadcasts these same forecasts word for word, and if you really want to do your research, the NOAA website itself actually has all the weather charts, barographs and other data used to compile these forecasts. What does a forecast do for you? easy, weather has trends, and unlike Paris fashion, this stuff can actually make sense to a sailor. see if you look on the forecast and it says Morning winds 10-15 knots from the South, afternoon 10-15 from the South South West and Evening 15-20 from the South West, its safe to bet that the VAST MAJORITY of shifts that day will go to the right.

Ol' SaltOk this is gonna take an expensive equipment upgrade, but GET A COMPASS. any one you like so long as it has 360 degree markings, also purchase a wind vane, I prefer the mast mounted ones that clip on in from of the boom vang. and a grease pencil (what we used to use with radar screens before they invented computers). Now mount the compass on your centerline (middle) take the grease pencil and clip it on your life jacket where you can reach it but won't lose it, and mount the wind vane. Ok now what do you do with these things? RESEARCH, TRACK, and EVALUATE! sounds complex right? Not really. Here's what you do. At regular intervals, come head to wind, once the bow is dead on the breeze, note the heading, and write it down on that smooth part of the deck on either side of the daggerboard, make a vertical row of all the readings. This shows the tendancy of the wind to shift without a change in velocity (speed). How do we evaluate these readings? Simple we look for the trend! For example, lets say over the course of 15 minutes you took 10 headings, 181, 184, 182, 181, 185, 187, 179, 181, 184, and 189. without even adding you can see the wind seems to stay around 183 degrees, and when it does shift it shifts to the right. works kinda easy right? now to be exact the average was 183.3 as you can see I'm not a math major, which proves anybody can grasp this method. need more proof? well this becomes useful when the committee boat posts the magnetic compass bearing to the windward mark. let's say for this same example, the committee posted the windward mark as bearing 180. well your wind average showed that the breeze liked 183. the starboard tack is favored by an average of 3 degrees, and you know that port tack is more likely to be headed. This tracking method is also useful in pre-starts, sailing to the race course, and even on days when you're not racing, but out there practicing, such an exercise on a practice day would help you understand the area you're sailing in (see comments about LOCAL KNOWLEDGE)

Ok Skipper Johnson, I hope this advice on this one important topic helps you on your next race. I'll be posting more replies to the rest of your questions as I get the time to. Sadly I actually have to work from time to time.
 
Braecrest said:
Skipper J!
I won't bother to overload you in one post. Reading shifts/puffs is somewhat easy. (I say this after nearly 20 years on the water).
First, you have to know what a puff looks like, yes thats right you CAN see the wind, or rather what the wind does to things around you.

Basic; puffs gusts and more wind in general creates more ripples on the water, giving that area of water a darker apperance. when that dark area moves, theres going to be a shift. easy enough right? ok stick with me

Intermediate; well know, we see the wind moving, but how do we know if it's going to be a lift (good) or a header (bad) simple; the direction it's moving. lets say we are close hauled on a starboard tack. your hiking the boat flat and look to windward and see a dark patch of water (Gust, Puff, etc...) moving down the course and diagonally towards your boat. Well, this is going to be a lift (good thing) the diagonal movement towards your boat means the wind has veered (Northern Hemisphere) to the right temperarily and will allow you to change course a few degrees to the right, pointing your bow closer to the mark (good thing) Now, conversely, if that patch of dark water (puff, gust, etc) is moving diagonally away from you, this is a bad thing, called a header, or more commonly a knock. Its a good idea to tack if your in an upwind battle of have competition close ahead your trying to gain on. Oh by the way, HIKE HARDER, if you hike more before the extra wind gets to you, you'll get more power! (yet another good thing)

Semi-Advanced Ok, good, we can now react to the wind changes near us, but how about a little more advanced warning. Easy, look at the clouds, smoke, trees, flags, other boats, whatever you got. These items, when studied between races can give a good indication of what the wind will be doing in the near future. For example; lets say that there are several layers of clouds at differant altitudes, and the lower ones are drifting in nearly the same direction as the surface wind. Now the ones in the layer above that are moving in a differant direction, this indicates that the upper level winds are from a differant direction, and will influence the surface winds to do the same (nature doesn't like strife) Another good one it to look at the smoke or steam from a smokestake ashore, if it trails out over the water, and curves to one direction or the other, thats a great indication of what the surface wind will do as you draw near that part of the shoreline. Also be sure to look at divisions and other classes of boats sailing nearby, if they favor one side of the same course or the other, there has to be a reason right? or if they are futher out to sea, that can also be a good indication of upcoming trends.

Advanced; Ok, so now we can see the wind, and we know how to react to it. but what about planning for it? this takes skill and time. First, knowing your area helps. if you know that an east wind tends to shift left in the afternoon, this helps. Local knowledge helps. but lets say you drove a few hours away to compete at that big regatta, and have no local knowledge, your not SOL. Marine Weather Forecasts are now your good friend. www.weatherunderground.com publishes the NOAA Marine forecast for every square foot of American waters. NOAA weather radio (VHF) also broadcasts these same forecasts word for word, and if you really want to do your research, the NOAA website itself actually has all the weather charts, barographs and other data used to compile these forecasts. What does a forecast do for you? easy, weather has trends, and unlike Paris fashion, this stuff can actually make sense to a sailor. see if you look on the forecast and it says Morning winds 10-15 knots from the South, afternoon 10-15 from the South South West and Evening 15-20 from the South West, its safe to bet that the VAST MAJORITY of shifts that day will go to the right.

Ol' SaltOk this is gonna take an expensive equipment upgrade, but GET A COMPASS. any one you like so long as it has 360 degree markings, also purchase a wind vane, I prefer the mast mounted ones that clip on in from of the boom vang. and a grease pencil (what we used to use with radar screens before they invented computers). Now mount the compass on your centerline (middle) take the grease pencil and clip it on your life jacket where you can reach it but won't lose it, and mount the wind vane. Ok now what do you do with these things? RESEARCH, TRACK, and EVALUATE! sounds complex right? Not really. Here's what you do. At regular intervals, come head to wind, once the bow is dead on the breeze, note the heading, and write it down on that smooth part of the deck on either side of the daggerboard, make a vertical row of all the readings. This shows the tendancy of the wind to shift without a change in velocity (speed). How do we evaluate these readings? Simple we look for the trend! For example, lets say over the course of 15 mintues you took 10 headings, 181, 184, 182, 181, 185, 187, 179, 181, 184, and 189. without even adding you can see the wind seems to stay around 183 degrees, and when it does shift it shifts to the right. works kinda easy right? now to be exact the average was 183.3 as you can see I'm not a math major, which proves anybody can grasp this method. need more proof? well this becomes useful when the committee boat posts the magnetic compass bearing to the windward mark. lets say for this same example, the committee posted the windward mark as bearing 180. well your wind average showed that the breeze liked 183. the starboard tack is favored by an average of 3 degrees, and you know that port tack is more likely to be headed. This tracking method is also useful in pre-starts, sailing to the race course, and even on days when your not racing, but out there practicing, such an exercise on a practice day would help you understand the area your sailing in (see comments about LOCAL KNOWLEDGE)

Ok Skipper Johnson, I hope this advice on this one important topic helps you on your next race. I'll be posting more replies to the rest of your questions as I get the time to. Sadly I actually have to work from time to time.
Click to expand...

BRILLIANT! - Thanks. I know what I need now. I need you to write a Laser Sailing for Dummies and I can ditch my stupid Laser Racing book by Teddy Baird. I am slightly puzzled by how the American forecast will help in Melbourne Australia, but who am I to argue!?

ONE QUESTION I need answered before Saturdays race - I know sailing by the lee is probably beyond my current skill level, but my moto of dive in and make a fool of yourself and then reassess later has me inclined to try it out on Saturday. I understand the basic idea is to have sail the same side as the wind. My question is - do I use it on all directions from Broad Reach to Dead? or just dead? Thanks again!
 
Once again, sorry about the North American specific stuff, and it appears that my comments were posted twice, damned computers.

Ok sailing by the lee. alot of people tend to use this term, but don't really know what it means. It kinda dates back to the days when tall ships were common (yes I am a licensed tall ship captain) it was used to describe when a sail was braced hard around to lee, means the sail is being held to the wind, and even the slightest shift can be bad. Now you can sail by the lee on almost any off-wind point of sail, but doing so when the breeze is up can be risky, and if your tall like me, hazardous to your health.
Advantages when on a dead run, sailing by the lee can help ensure you get the most out of your sail by exposing the all the canvas (I know we don't use that cotton fabric anymore but I still call it that) to the wind, at an exactly perpendicular angle. this can give you the best speed, remember your daggerboard should be up.
Disadvantages ok, so lets say the wind shifts (READ PREVIOUS POST) which the wind does alot. one of two things will happen. the wind shifts toward your windward side (header) you get a small section of your luff (leading edge of sail) that backwinds. this isn't all that bad, but isn't fast. or the wind shifts forward on the leeward side, (lift) this can be a VERY BAD thing. if the shift is sudden, or the change goes unchecked, this can backwind the sail causing an accidental jybe, or even worse, a death roll. both of these aren't fast at all.
What I'd try ok, so we know what we're dealing with. now what do we do? well first, sail conservatively. Downwind try to shift your body weight to minimize helm. second ease out on all your control lines, this will give the sail more depth (billowy shape) and it will act more like a spinnaker or a main course (square rigger thing). also lean the boat slightly to windward. I've never understood quite what this does, but I've experimented and a windward heal between 5 and 10 degrees is faster then dead flat or more then 15 degrees of windward heel or any leeward heel. also be sure to bring the daggerboard up. if your unsure how high to bring it, get a black permenant marker and while the boat is still on the trailer, have your buddy look at the bottom of the hull as you slowly insert the board, keep going until he/she says it is flush (even) with the rest of the hull. Take that marker and darw a thick black line on the trailing edge AT the daggerboard brake piece (black rubber thingie forward of mainsheet block) this way you'll never have to second guess the height of the board, and you'll never have it too high, which is slow. Now the rest is up to your comfort and experiance level. if you feel the conditions are safe and you've practiced and have a good feel (sailing and shiphadling, like lovemaking, is still a sutble art regardless of what ANYBODY tells you!) for the boat, you can push the limits. If not, sail conservatively and keep your boat upright and sail clean.

Hope this helps! Now go win a race for this poor Yank.
 
oh yeah, forgot to mention, some people use the term sailing by the lee to describe when they've sailed to far down and try to ease their way back onto a lay line for the leeward or jybe mark without having to jybe. This is an incorrect useage of the term. the practice of sailing too far down and having to 'cheat' back without jybing is known as BAD STEERING
 
Next topic, real quick, Tiller holding

Try and hold the tiller like you would a microphone if you were singing. gripping the tiller extension near, but not at the very end, with an overhand grip. now hold the tiller extension close to your chest. this does a few things. First it gives you better control and allows you to make smaller movements. second, it makes it easier to counter weather-helm. third, the muscle groups involved in the arm are stronger, and can hold this for a LONG time, and lastly, they aren't the same muscle groups you use to trim the sheet or adjust any other control lines, so you can sail longer without having arms that feel like wet noodles when you done. Hope that helps.
 
Braecrest i honestly think you should see if you could write an article on windshifts for the next lasersailor. And sailing by the lee gets your sail up higher in the air where the stronger winds are.
 
yeah, never could figure the physics of heeling to windward downwind, but that makes sense, I'll buy it, surface friction being what it is and all...

any questions I'll do my best and promise not to lead astray.
 
I've never understood quite what this does, but I've experimented and a windward heal between 5 and 10 degrees is faster then dead flat or more then 15 degrees of windward heel or any leeward heel

Hello everybody!

I've just entered this nice forum. My situation is similar to that of Skipper J. I've been learning by myself to sail by the lee during the last months. Here are some comments and questions

1- I wonder wether this winward heal will be related to the symmetry of the sail position in the boat. I mean, with the boat flat and the sail completely open (90 degrees) we get a quite asymmetric situation where all the push is on one side. The mast and the boom form an "L". On the other hand, heeling the boat to windward causes a "V"-shaped figure which receives a more symmetric push. Do you think that this could be a possible explanation?

2- When the wind is really light, it seems that I must heel the boat a lot to windward so that the boom "falls" a little towards the bow and doesn't try to "come back" to 90 degrees or less by the simple effect of its weight. Besides, in this way, I avoid that the main sheet drags in the water. Is this ok?

3- I have a lot of problems for gybing when sailing by the lee on one side to begin sailing on the other (something I only try on light winds!). As the boom is so open, I have easened so much sheet that I really end up making a mess. Is there any trick to solve this problem?

Pedro.
 
Pedro;

1 - the more I think about it and try to remember back to high school physics class.
(seems like ages ago, and lets not even touch on college physics) and also taking a little bit I gleaned from Trim and Stability, Naval Architechure and Marine Cargo Operations, (College was really a maritime trade school) I think we are dealing with some far strunge out theroms.

Before I begin here lets review some terms so we're all on the same page;
Center of Gravity - Point at which all parts of the downward force of gravity act through. this can also be considered the center of mass, for an item that have even density.
Center of Bouyancy - Point at which all parts of the upward force of buoyancy act through. In otherwords, the center of the underwater portion of a watertight hull
Keel - main structural member in the bottom of a ships hull (doesn't really apply to Lasers, but I think I'll need it later
Center of Effort - point at which a force acts on an object (this will come in handy when discussing sail shape and position.
Couple - this is a situation where two forces acting on an object in equal amounts but opposite directions and axis create. (think of a box sitting on a table. push with one hand at the top right corner, and the other hand pushes at the bottom left, you get a rotational effect)

Ok, now comes the hard part... An object floating in water is said to be stable when the center of gravity is above the center of buoyancy. as the vessel heals over, the center of buoyancy shifts to remain in the center of the submerged portion of the hull. (this creates those offset opposing forces I talked about in a couple above) This displacement of force results in a righting arm. the buoyancy force acts upwards to return the vessel upright and level. This is a good thing. follow?

Ok, thats how it works for most ships, the greater the distance center of gravity and center of buoyancy are the more stable (stiff) a ship is, the closer they are togeather they are, the less stable she is (tender) or unstable (bad). Appling this stuff to the laser takes some brain power, and I hope mine doesn't overheat right now.

So now we kinda understand how a vessel stays upright normally, now were going to take this and apply it to a laser sailing dead down wind. Let us assume that all the thrust we get out of the sail is called the center of effort, and that this center is exactly in the geometrical center of the sail. (figure about 1/3 of the way up the luff, centered more or less at the middle of the foot) I really need to draw a picture of all this.

Either way once you can visualize what I'm trying to convey this will hopefully make more sense. now when the center of effort is offset from the other two centers (gravity and buoyancy) the vessel will get alot of weather helm, and drag will develope on the daggerboard as well. try to visualize standing in the water behind a laser on a dead run, the sailor is off centerline, so then is the center of gravity, the boat is flat so center of buoyancy is in the middle of the hull, and the sail is straight out opposite the sailor, so the center of effort is way off. It would stand to reason that all this isn't too effective and efficent. so what do we do, heel to windward.

Ok now we are standing in the water behind the same laser, but now we're looking at the boat with 10 to 15 degrees on windward heel downwind.
This changes things, the weight of the sailor may have shifted slightly outboard, so the center of gravity moves a little as well. But now the underwater part of the hull has changed, and once again the center of buoyancy shifts so it is within the geometrical center of the watertight underwater hull, this moves the center of buoyancy alot and almost gets it in line with the center of gravity. Lastly, the position of the sail has changed drastically, almost to the point where the theoretical center of effort it almost directly in line with the other two centers.

It stands to reason that this would minimize drag on the foils, and serve to make the entire system more efficient which translates into going faster.

Of course this is only a TWO DIMENSIONAL picture, not taking into account the effect of a little bit of daggerboard, or the fore-and-aft trim of the vessel, to say nothing of the consistancy of the wind or the state of the sea. This all is also just my theroy, I'd like to invite any suggestions and or critisums.

I know that was a rather long winded (no pun intended) explaination for one part of your questions Pedro, but please let me know if it helps. V/R -Skip
 
Hi Braecrest,

...but please let me know if it helps
Very good! I think you gave me the technical explanation of what I felt in practice. Thank you!
I guess that the same principle applies to all one-sail boats (optimist, europe, etc).

...the vessel will get alot of weather helm, and drag will develope on the daggerboard as well

In fact, I'm thinking about the following experiment: I'll put the laser to sail downwind trying to get it flat (no heel), and with the sail in 90 degrees. Then fix the rudder exactly in the middle. Now, since the center of effort is offset, the boat should gradually turn to winward (ie, the opposite side of the boom). Don't you think so?

I really need to draw a picture of all this

Your explanation was very clear. Still, a picture would be simply fantastic!

Pedro.
 
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