Thanks, there is so much info to read and translate that I havn't realized there is infomation about it... :0)Yes, it is talked about at the bottom of the second column.
Reg. the sail: why isn't the class asking the sail makers that are already making "replica" sails that have proven to be up to spec and lasting for less than half the price of the "official" sail to make an offer?
Yes, they could.
They aren't official builders. Along with that, they already have the infrastructure to deal with making massive amounts of sails for the world which I don't think replica sailmakers have or want. Also those replica sails are just that, replicas, the class was looking for an updated design. Do those replica makers want to have their workers spend that much time on a new sail? I don't think it's in their best interest.
if a replica sail maker wanted to or was authorized to start making 'approved' sails, they would jump at the chance.
Please remember that Intensity sails AREN'T real replicas. The fabric is heavier and I believe there is more resin, which makes them more durable. A longer lasting sail for practice is the reason people buy them, but I believe they are slower. A woman who usually beats me was using her new Intensity sail and I was using my old class legal sail, and she just could not catch up with me. We were on a fun four mile cruise to the bridge, and I kept waiting for her. She'd pull up next to me and then I'd sail on ahead again. Maybe because the sail was new to her, she just needed to learn how to trim it, but this seems problematic to me. She can whip me with an ancient sail, but not with a new one?
BTW, what separates a "real" replica from one that is "not real".
if a replica sail maker wanted to or was authorized to start making 'approved' sails, they would jump at the chance. i think the massive amount of needed sails would be coming from more shops, so less of a burden on each sailmaker. the technology, design, and production that it takes to make the current sail would easily be taken on by any replica or new player. in fact, they're using that now to make the replica sails. i don't think you can say that a replica sail maker would not want to take on the opportunity to make approved, official sails.
Hi,...that way you know all the sails are the same.
With taking on such strict quality controls, I doubt a new player unless they had the infrastructure would want to jump on the chance to start making a sail that had to be under those really strict guidelines. It is almost a burden rather than a reward.
Hi,
I suppose, that probably this is the reason, why the new ballbeared blocks for the mainsheet seem to be produced by Harken only (Here I view to the "never ending story" of the compare of the two XD-Vang's, one made by Harken and the other made by HoltAllen), am I correct?
Ciao
LooserLu
i can't agree with the "burden" over "reward". if this was a class of boat that had a small membership and they bought new sails every few years i might agree. but the Laser Class, now with 3 sizes of sails, an Olympic class for 2 of those sizes, and i think the most popular boat in the world. combine that with the fact that a portion of owners purchase or use multiple numbers of sails in a season. to be a sail manufacturer (approved or replica) of the Laser class sail, you will do whatever it takes to get approved and then get ramped up to produce product. IMHO the volume would outweigh the burden. it will be interesting to see in this current economy if third world production will remain or if the US and Europe deem it financially feasible to produce "locally".
i also realize that the Laser Sail is a political and production hot spot. i know quality has been beaten to death here on numerous threads. the world economy may create a change just through attempts at stability, cost cuts, etc.
If the new sail goes through and the sails last longer, wouldn't production go down since people aren't buying new sails all the time? There is no competition as well, so the cost per sail is the same regardless of who makes it. Does the income of the sails warrant the cost it would take for a sailmaker to create a setup to make specifically Laser sails?
i'm not a sailmaker or some production engineer but, if the new sail goes through, i would think that initially it would need high production numbers, right? all new boats would have them, plus a % of current owners would buy. after that, i agree with you that production would probably flatten. this is where the 'replica' guys would get hurt. everybody will use their old 'approved sails' for practice. the price and costs of these sails should drop.
as for your income vs. setup costs, again i'm not a sailmaker but i believe that the technology is so computer driven and modernized that yes, the income would exceed the normal, built into the price, design costs. they are not reinventing the wheel here.
as for competition, i would like to know that. is it already agreed that any new designed sail will be produced at the same factories that make the current sail? if that's true then again, you're right. we'll all be buying the more expensive but more durable sail.
HiI don't see a performance difference between the two vang setups, a sail is different. I'm sure Holt could make a set of mainsheet blocks if they wanted to.
They aren't official builders. Along with that, they already have the infrastructure to deal with making massive amounts of sails for the world which I don't think replica sailmakers have or want. Also those replica sails are just that, replicas, the class was looking for an updated design. Do those replica makers want to have their workers spend that much time on a new sail? I don't think it's in their best interest.
I would expect that with the market that ILCA controls some people and enterprises would probably build a loft just to become a supplier. Where in the business world can you buy a monopoly? Getting that contract is a pretty good basis for a major investment
The point here is that the ILCA Technical and Measurement Committee should work for our interests and for our interests only. The fact that they are negotiating with only two companies does not together with that mission in my mind . What would be the down side for the class of an international invitation to bid for the contract? I can't see one. What would the advantages be? Regardless of the outcome, the class would get an idea what a sail really is worth. The sails could be supplied in a better quality and perhaps much, much cheaper. Apparently many here think so. Because: how come the replicas are so much cheaper? The seem to make a slightly different product, but is it really inferior?
What I know is that my brother can buy a one-off custum made sail for his 20 foot day sailor twice the size of a laser sail, made from much heavier cloth, from several sources for pretty much the price of a laser sail.
Hi
If one decides to allow more than 1 producer, immediately the discussions and comparings start between the sailors. F.e. one see it with: the endless "Hyde vs. North Sail" issue; upper mastsegment of PSA vs. LaserPerformance; actualy the yellow foils aganist the originally white foils; Harken ratchet block vs. all other ratchet blocks; Laser hulls of LaserPerformance/USA vs. LaserPerformance Europe vs. PSA vs. Performance Sailcraft Japan; Carbon tiller Rooster vs. Carbon tiller "Kiwi" vs. ACME Carbon tiller vs. original builder supplied XD-Carbontiller; Hikingstrap Zhik vs other hikingstraps, Rooster Mainsheet vs. Bzzz Mainsheet; etc. etc. etc. etc.
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1. ILCA Technical and Measurement Committee do NOT do any negotiating with the suppliers - they have little to no say in who the suppliers are - that is all controlled by the Builder.
2. The class (you, me and everyone else) already has an idea of what the sail is really worth and a pretty good idea of what it costs..
3. The sails are NOT going to be supplied to the builder any cheaper then what they are right now (If they were, don't you think the builder would have either switched sailmakers or demanded the contract price go down?)
4. We have beaten to death the reason the replicas are so much cheaper. It has nothing to due with the costs to produce the sail. It has everything to do with how the sail is sold and by whom.
The reason for this is #4 above.
As members of the class we can scream and jump up and down demanding the longevity of the sail be increased and hope and pray they listen and respond (and it sounds like they are trying), but the only way we can ever change the pricing of the class approved sail is to stop buying it at prices we think are too high.
They do trim differently. To be specific we have noticed the Intensity sail does not like any cunningham in any breeze condition up to 20mph. The only cunningham adjustment we make is to pull on cunningham just to get the wrinkles out of the luff and then let the cunningham go. They also need more outhaul on than the class sail. At least the ones from 2 years ago trim this way.
When you put on cunningham the foot of the sail will "motor boat", (go flap, flap, flap, flap) all the way upwind. Its very annoying.
.;
On the issue of appropriate companies who might manufacture Laser Sails, maybe one aspect is stability/longevity of the company itself. I assume the process of establishing a new supplier is time consuming (checking their sails comply, trialing them, checking they give no advantage, etc.). Thus it is not something you (the class) want to be repeating on a regular basis. I would expect this would limit potential manufacturers. In many market places, low cost suppliers are often working on low margins and thus can be more suceptible to downturns in the market place. Those companies who operate on higher margins can be more resiliant. Thus I can understand a tendency for the class to stick with the "higher cost" suppliers.
(Not that I like paying high prices but ) Maybe just an aspect to the supplier selection process.
Ian
If I am understanding your logic correctly, then Sharper Image (in bankruptcy for the 2nd time) would be a favored supplier over Walmart (thriving in the downturn)
International competition in the Laser is conducted in supplied boats. It doesn't matter what sails we use in our elimination series and it certainly does not matter is we all use Intensity, Sobstad, Ulmer, Hood, Elvstrom, Haarstick, Watts, Murphy and Nye, Bower, Scoville, Bartlett, Cameron, Bludworth, Morgan, or walmart sails for our regularly scheduled US races.
While people do discuss the differences, most of what you mentioned are parts that make no speed differences like hiking straps, tillers, blocks, they are one of the few things that you have a choice of putting in the boat.
I don’t agree, or why did PSA now has yellow foils and former Vanguard Inc. uses “North sails” (Very former times we had Elvstroem/Toronto Sails worldwide only and then Harstick sails worldwide only).there is no competition between builders,
You cannot have a single builder and send boats or spars around the world, it is not financially feasible.
…in reason, compared only to the hulls of former Vanguard, the UK hulls are “crap”….There aren't many people importing hulls from the UK
Are you sure? I am not convinced by that what you tell, if I look, here at Europe, to the upper mast segments of PSA. One is able to see at official races here at Europe: A lot of those “high potential Laser competitors” has one of that spars of PSA (not all Laserites have one, correct. Reason: our Laserstores are not allowed to sell those upper mast segments of PSA here.).There aren't many people importing …. spars from Australia, etc (there could be but it's not something all laser sailors do).
From that what I told above, not only the sails are “the only thing that break this idea”.Sails are the only thing that break this idea.
To the foils: Haven’t you read the text correct? “Shape, flex, weight is the same”. There are only "psychological aspects" that make the new foils fast.The new foils I'm really curious about though, only time will tell with those.