The class IS listening

#2
Hi.
There is nothing told about the carbon upper mastsegment for the Laser Radial. Does this mean this project is digged or are there any news about that?
LooserLu
 

jeffers

Active Member
#5
I quite like the idea for the split collar as opposed to the current riveted collar for the top sections. It is something I have discussed with numerous other Laser sailors at some point.

Their feeling was that it will never happen but it looks like it has!
 
#7
Reg. the sail: why isn't the class asking the sail makers that are already making "replica" sails that have proven to be up to spec and lasting for less than half the price of the "official" sail to make an offer?

Yes, they could.
 

Eric_R

D10 Secretary
#8
Reg. the sail: why isn't the class asking the sail makers that are already making "replica" sails that have proven to be up to spec and lasting for less than half the price of the "official" sail to make an offer?

Yes, they could.
They aren't official builders. Along with that, they already have the infrastructure to deal with making massive amounts of sails for the world which I don't think replica sailmakers have or want. Also those replica sails are just that, replicas, the class was looking for an updated design. Do those replica makers want to have their workers spend that much time on a new sail? I don't think it's in their best interest.
 
#9
They aren't official builders. Along with that, they already have the infrastructure to deal with making massive amounts of sails for the world which I don't think replica sailmakers have or want. Also those replica sails are just that, replicas, the class was looking for an updated design. Do those replica makers want to have their workers spend that much time on a new sail? I don't think it's in their best interest.
if a replica sail maker wanted to or was authorized to start making 'approved' sails, they would jump at the chance. i think the massive amount of needed sails would be coming from more shops, so less of a burden on each sailmaker. the technology, design, and production that it takes to make the current sail would easily be taken on by any replica or new player. in fact, they're using that now to make the replica sails. i don't think you can say that a replica sail maker would not want to take on the opportunity to make approved, official sails.
 

Merrily

Administrator
#10
if a replica sail maker wanted to or was authorized to start making 'approved' sails, they would jump at the chance.
Please remember that Intensity sails AREN'T real replicas. The fabric is heavier and I believe there is more resin, which makes them more durable. A longer lasting sail for practice is the reason people buy them, but I believe they are slower. A woman who usually beats me was using her new Intensity sail and I was using my old class legal sail, and she just could not catch up with me. We were on a fun four mile cruise to the bridge, and I kept waiting for her. She'd pull up next to me and then I'd sail on ahead again. Maybe because the sail was new to her, she just needed to learn how to trim it, but this seems problematic to me. She can whip me with an ancient sail, but not with a new one?
 

Rob B

Active Member
#11
Please remember that Intensity sails AREN'T real replicas. The fabric is heavier and I believe there is more resin, which makes them more durable. A longer lasting sail for practice is the reason people buy them, but I believe they are slower. A woman who usually beats me was using her new Intensity sail and I was using my old class legal sail, and she just could not catch up with me. We were on a fun four mile cruise to the bridge, and I kept waiting for her. She'd pull up next to me and then I'd sail on ahead again. Maybe because the sail was new to her, she just needed to learn how to trim it, but this seems problematic to me. She can whip me with an ancient sail, but not with a new one?

They do trim differently. To be specific we have noticed the Intensity sail does not like any cunningham in any breeze condition up to 20mph. The only cunningham adjustment we make is to pull on cunningham just to get the wrinkles out of the luff and then let the cunningham go. They also need more outhaul on than the class sail. At least the ones from 2 years ago trim this way.

When you put on cunningham the foot of the sail will "motor boat", (go flap, flap, flap, flap) all the way upwind. Its very annoying.

I still think its the way to go for practice, but when I'm a few weeks away from a race I put on the class sail to get back in tune with the sail trim.;
 

Eric_R

D10 Secretary
#14
if a replica sail maker wanted to or was authorized to start making 'approved' sails, they would jump at the chance. i think the massive amount of needed sails would be coming from more shops, so less of a burden on each sailmaker. the technology, design, and production that it takes to make the current sail would easily be taken on by any replica or new player. in fact, they're using that now to make the replica sails. i don't think you can say that a replica sail maker would not want to take on the opportunity to make approved, official sails.
With taking on such strict quality controls, I doubt a new player unless they had the infrastructure would want to jump on the chance to start making a sail that had to be under those really strict guidelines. It is almost a burden rather than a reward.

The other thing is that they say they are in the same spec as the laser sail but there are probably a lot other things that need to get looked at. If there is also another new player, things get tricky when one say that another sail could be better, so the fewer the makers the better, that way you know all the sails are the same.
 
#15
...that way you know all the sails are the same.
Hi,
I suppose, that probably this is the reason, why the new ballbeared blocks for the mainsheet seem to be produced by Harken only (Here I view to the "never ending story" of the compare of the two XD-Vang's, one made by Harken and the other made by HoltAllen), am I correct?
Ciao
LooserLu
 
#16
With taking on such strict quality controls, I doubt a new player unless they had the infrastructure would want to jump on the chance to start making a sail that had to be under those really strict guidelines. It is almost a burden rather than a reward.
i can't agree with the "burden" over "reward". if this was a class of boat that had a small membership and they bought new sails every few years i might agree. but the Laser Class, now with 3 sizes of sails, an Olympic class for 2 of those sizes, and i think the most popular boat in the world. combine that with the fact that a portion of owners purchase or use multiple numbers of sails in a season. to be a sail manufacturer (approved or replica) of the Laser class sail, you will do whatever it takes to get approved and then get ramped up to produce product. IMHO the volume would outweigh the burden. it will be interesting to see in this current economy if third world production will remain or if the US and Europe deem it financially feasible to produce "locally".
i also realize that the Laser Sail is a political and production hot spot. i know quality has been beaten to death here on numerous threads. the world economy may create a change just through attempts at stability, cost cuts, etc.
 

Eric_R

D10 Secretary
#17
Hi,
I suppose, that probably this is the reason, why the new ballbeared blocks for the mainsheet seem to be produced by Harken only (Here I view to the "never ending story" of the compare of the two XD-Vang's, one made by Harken and the other made by HoltAllen), am I correct?
Ciao
LooserLu
I don't see a performance difference between the two vang setups, a sail is different. I'm sure Holt could make a set of mainsheet blocks if they wanted to.
 

Eric_R

D10 Secretary
#18
i can't agree with the "burden" over "reward". if this was a class of boat that had a small membership and they bought new sails every few years i might agree. but the Laser Class, now with 3 sizes of sails, an Olympic class for 2 of those sizes, and i think the most popular boat in the world. combine that with the fact that a portion of owners purchase or use multiple numbers of sails in a season. to be a sail manufacturer (approved or replica) of the Laser class sail, you will do whatever it takes to get approved and then get ramped up to produce product. IMHO the volume would outweigh the burden. it will be interesting to see in this current economy if third world production will remain or if the US and Europe deem it financially feasible to produce "locally".
i also realize that the Laser Sail is a political and production hot spot. i know quality has been beaten to death here on numerous threads. the world economy may create a change just through attempts at stability, cost cuts, etc.

If the new sail goes through and the sails last longer, wouldn't production go down since people aren't buying new sails all the time? There is no competition as well, so the cost per sail is the same regardless of who makes it. Does the income of the sails warrant the cost it would take for a sailmaker to create a setup to make specifically Laser sails?
 
#19
If the new sail goes through and the sails last longer, wouldn't production go down since people aren't buying new sails all the time? There is no competition as well, so the cost per sail is the same regardless of who makes it. Does the income of the sails warrant the cost it would take for a sailmaker to create a setup to make specifically Laser sails?
i'm not a sailmaker or some production engineer but, if the new sail goes through, i would think that initially it would need high production numbers, right? all new boats would have them, plus a % of current owners would buy. after that, i agree with you that production would probably flatten. this is where the 'replica' guys would get hurt. everybody will use their old 'approved sails' for practice. the price and costs of these sails should drop.

as for your income vs. setup costs, again i'm not a sailmaker but i believe that the technology is so computer driven and modernized that yes, the income would exceed the normal, built into the price, design costs. they are not reinventing the wheel here.

as for competition, i would like to know that. is it already agreed that any new designed sail will be produced at the same factories that make the current sail? if that's true then again, you're right. we'll all be buying the more expensive but more durable sail.
 

Eric_R

D10 Secretary
#20
i'm not a sailmaker or some production engineer but, if the new sail goes through, i would think that initially it would need high production numbers, right? all new boats would have them, plus a % of current owners would buy. after that, i agree with you that production would probably flatten. this is where the 'replica' guys would get hurt. everybody will use their old 'approved sails' for practice. the price and costs of these sails should drop.

as for your income vs. setup costs, again i'm not a sailmaker but i believe that the technology is so computer driven and modernized that yes, the income would exceed the normal, built into the price, design costs. they are not reinventing the wheel here.

as for competition, i would like to know that. is it already agreed that any new designed sail will be produced at the same factories that make the current sail? if that's true then again, you're right. we'll all be buying the more expensive but more durable sail.
If you have a smaller sailmaker make sails in mass production, they need to have the labor to make all of them. Why do you think they are in Sri Lanka? Cheap labor and lots of people to help make sails. Can the sailmaker afford to hire all the labor at minimum wage here? Can they get the building necessary to house all the new equipment to mass produce those sails? The sailmakers that make practice sails in the masses that would be needed to supply Laser Performance, they don't need a lot of people to make a smaller amount that they make. Hyde made their own prototype sail and North did their own. I'm going to assume that if one gets picked, both makers will make that sail.
 
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