Some serious discussion about technique differences Standard and Radial

G

glasky

Member
Next year I will officially rate as a Great Master (Damb it) and at around 65Kg and less than Scheit height I am facing the reality that in other than Lake conditions I am likely to need to move to a radial to stay competitive - but not all radial sailors are light and they like to 'reach' to windward which is almost as big an ask as feathering a standard rig if you're a light weight (and just a weekend sailor).

As competition intensifies, and with much larger fleets, there is a real limit now to how much ground a light weight can catch up down wind (particularly with a Radial rig). Masters racing also attracts real 'Masters' so the standard is higher in any case.

There has been some public (and published) discussion about differences in techniques for the standard and radial - but participation in a recent Masters championship has convinced me there are more differences (and more understanding of these differences) not yet disclosed in the public domain.

Don't expect all radial Masters to give up all their tricks - but there is a lot of experience out there - some of which might be shared more.

Interested in comments relating to a transition from Standard to Radial rig. Not a lot has been published - and what has is now quite dated as experience with the Radial grows.
 
One thing to look at is the outhaul. because the radial is sewn together at the clew more sail shape is controled by the outhaul. another trick is to use a little less vang than you would use in a full i have found the radila leech to be slightly tighter. some tricks for light air are to first avoid excessive leward heel unless it extreamly light and also foot off and reach vangsheeting use enough veng so the blocks go out at about a 55 degree angle
 
Chancock,

Hans Fogh, original sailmaker for the radial I think, made special comment about the critical nature of outhaul setting on the Radial. In an interview published in the complete book of laser sailing (Tillman D, 2000) he indicated that ' the most important adjustment, other than the mainsheet, is the outhaul'. Because all the panels are joined (like a big jib) when you pull the clew aft the sail becomes flatter in te back and at the bottom. The ability to flatten the whole sail by tightening the outhaul is said to be an advantage to lightweights.

Interestingly though I have noticed from photographs (and Masters fleet racing) that most championship sailors seem to ease the outhaul more than any published recommendations on most points of sail and in most wind/sea conditions. This is particularly evident by non-lightweight sailors in chop conditions who still make very good VMG upwind despite adopting what seems to be rediculously low (at least initial) median pointing angles on the beat. In a recent championship (first Laser championship in 30 years) I was astonished at how low in the 'groove' most radial sailors ran to windward. Compared to boats I am used to (and even the Laser standard) they were reaching to windward not pointing.

I have heard that Steve Cockerral (Rooster sailing) has commented that the radial has such a tight leech that you need to start out with vang at block to block. Too much vang in a radial, however, is the only time in my life I have got stuck in irons when trying to tack a Laser during the pre-start. Your comments on vang sheeting are interesting but there seems to be a critical point at which too much vang starts to become detrimental. (I know many have suggested to take out some of the new vang purchases for the Laser Radial but such suggestions have been customarilly based on need and reduction of rope tail clutter in the cockpit - not on actual limits to vang use. Only one comment I have read so far related to over use of vang in a radial and the concern here was on equipment failure not sail plan efficiency)

There are also abundent recommendations that the radial should be heeled in certain cinditions up wind - but no reasonable explanation for this has been forthcoming. Interested to get some feedback as to wheter this is just a 'feel good' thing or really is faster (and why?).

Some things (differnces) about the Radial seem to come intuitively - like the need to overemphasise roll-tacks if you are light, but other differences are more subtle and in fact, many not-so-light people are going really fast in the radial.

Anyway, thanks for the comments so far, shared experiences are invaluable.
 
degarr75456,

I used to think I could give reasonable advice on light air Laser sailing until I switched from the standard to the radial and returned to serious big fleet championship coastal racing.

On the Lake where I have sailed in recent years with a standard rig you develop techniques (habbits) that suit the local conditions. When you go to the coast and sail against national and overseas masters in a Radial its a whole new ball game.

I am still getting to grips with the subtle differences in the Radial rig compared to the standard.

In lake sailing with the standard rig it was fairly straight forward as far as trim and handling were concerned. The usual initial vang tension compromise to open the leech and distribute camber on 0-2 kts with little or no Cunningham (balanced by a need to maintain some reasonable flow in the top sections of the sail until the light air turns to an actual 'breeze' (laminar flow) that works on all of the sail plan), reduction of vang as the breeze built above this until pressed etc. The only variations to normal accepted practice seemed to be going for a slightly fuller foot which enabled lake gust response enhancement and very late usee of cunningham (like Burdow) - I sail on a lake that has some extreme downdrafts so these departures from general practice are probably location specific.

In light air in the radial it is immediately apparent that the rig is shorter and that compared to standard rigs you miss out on the 'good' wind above your mast. Sounds trivial but it's not on a lake in light air where the direction and strength of breeze varies considerably within a few meteres fron the deck.

The next difference is the leech, maybe its because I have a MK5 sail but it takes more vang than I like to open it sufficiently in a drift - substantially stalling the head of what is already a lower than standard aspect ratio rig. With the standard rig I have an automatic response to gusts that works - but with the Radial this automatic response needs adjustment (The way to handle a Radial is different and I haven't got this to an automatic stage yet) Have a feeling that while the 'ease-trim-then point' regime for a standard was OK (see OKAM U Polars etc) for a radial I might actually need to use some rudder and/or kinetics to initially bear off slightly and then enhance heading during trim as well.

With the standard I was able to trade-off some interim drag (relative overpowered even in a drift) at times for instant accelleration in gust response. Our lake has quite significant velocity changes and doendraft directional changes that confound visitors and challenge locals).

With the Radial I seem to need to return to finness and more fore-thought in the light stuff because there is no back-up power. I am used to sailing high in the 'groove' even in light airs - it seems with the radial that I need to get acustomed to the opposite and sail deeper even in flat water.

Would be pleased to share your thoughts and experiences - maybe problems you experience are simmilar or different - at least different perspectives can sometimes be illuminating. There is much truth in the statement 'the older you get - the faster you were'. I used to be very fast in light airs - just not yet quite as fast in transition to the radial.
 
I think the best idea is to sail the radial exactly as you would a full rig - the only difference is in rig set up. I don't sail radials but have listened in on lots of fast radial sailors discussing rig tuning and the basic principles seem to be lots of vang (way more than block to block even in ten knots and keep tightening as the wind builds), as little cunningham as possible, and using the outhaul as a throttle - play it constantly to increase or lessen power as required. If anything, the secret is the vang - you have to use a lot more than you would think to go fast.

Sailing much lower in the groove upwind is an increasing trend in both full rigs and radials, especially at the front of the fleet. I doubt you'll find too many fast sailors in either rig who are pinchers these days - in anything much over 5 knots it just doesn't pay, especially if there are waves. This is part of the reason why the higher vang loads are necessary to go fast - you need a tight vang to sail that low in the groove. You definitely end up with a better VMG, but it hard to maintain - you have to hike a lot harder to foot effectively.

Sailing as flat as possible is critical in both the radial and full rig - otherwise the rig and foils aren't working at maximum efficiency. I'm surprised that after all these years, there are still theories circulating that leeward heel can be faster in certain conditions. All you have to do is look at the front of the fleet - the fastest boats upwind are invariably also those sailing with the least heel.

Under five knots is the only time that pinching pays - you don't gain enough speed footing off to offset the loss in height. In both rigs you have to concentrate hard and react to every little change in direction - the lifts are much harder to spot and you can lose a lot of ground by waiting 5 or 10 seconds to head up in a lift. The mainsheet is the key power control in the light stuff.
 
glasky,

You mention that you are using a MK5 Radial. I weigh about 55 kg and have been using a MK6 for at least a couple of years. About 2 months ago I decided to use my old MK5 radial instead of my dead old MK6 Radial at a practice race. The winds built and I found that I was having a harder time depowering the sail. I feel that the MK6 is much easier for a lighter sailer to depower than the MK5. I do have a new MK6 but I don't want to use it for practice. So I think that the sail tuning for the MK5 could be different from the MK6 which most people have now. I've decided that the old dead MK6 works better for me than the crisper MK5 sail.

Cindy
 
Here's what I know.
Firstly, the Mk5 sail is apparently (I haven't actually compared them) vastly different from the 6 and is just much worse overall.
The vang is a very important control, but I haven't really figured out what the trick is. More vang than normal does usually tend to help, but I had a recent national qualifier event in 20-30 knots where I had too much vang (as told from an observer). The leech was too tight, causing an unpredictable gust reaction (consequence: I was over on the DW in every race).
I do know that the radial sail has all the power in the bottom third, which is exclusively controlled by outhaul. Cunningham only ever depowers- nothing else; the sail doesn't have a large enough upper leach to control.

I'll try to upload an article I have from a magazine on radial setup.
 

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Hi Glasky,

I've spent the last year-year and a half trying to figure out the same transition from fullrig to radial. I'm a good fullrig weight but a good radial height so I'm sailing heavy in anything under 20 knots. Switching to radials is making me realize how much I pinch in a fullrig, since it is death to do that if you're heavy in a radial. I now leave the radial main two-blocked in almost all conditions and bear off to get the telltales flowing and hike to stay flat. I don't point as high as lighter people but I can sail underneath them if necessary, especially in gusts. Use your weight as an advantage; you'll really enjoy heavier air in the radial. Off the wind is harder for heavier folks, especially in flat water and medium conditions. If there are waves or chop a good surfing technique can make up for more weight and you can begin passing again. I find the radial very unforgiving in light air, bad air and start-and-stop situations, so learning to sail one is making me a better sailor overall.

Some notes from my sailing journal:

18-27 kts flat water to small chop:
was sailing fast bow-down, fully hiked in gusts, foot 1-2 inches from boom, cunningham 80-90% of possible tightness, vang tight when two-blocked but not fullrig vang-sheet tight . Main two-blocked at all times except at the top of the beat when the wind coming off the shore made for crazy shifts and blasts that could dump you over to windward if you were fully hiked and didn't get in fast enough; for this part of the beat I played the main in and out in response to the gusts. Reaching I kept up (mostly) with the lighter people by going deep in the gusts and coming up in the lulls, and taking advantage of any chop to surf.

18-22 kts medium chop:
Vang tight but cunningham & outhaul more relaxed than mentioned above; found I had horrible weather helm. Let off vang a small amount (inch?) and tightened cunningham by same small amount and it seemed to correct it. I got a better groove for some reason after making the adjustment. Lighter air than this loose outhaul & cunningham with vang on for shape seems to work. In really light air your skills as a lake sailor will come in to play as you find more wind than the next guy. Sorry this isn't more detailed; I am not especially technical and sail mostly by feel.

All this is subject to revision, but it is my best thoughts at the moment on what was working. One of the greatest things about sailing is you never stop learning!
See you out there on the starting line someday?
 
When I was doing Lasers seriously I was training big rig and doing champs in Radials as I suffer from duck's disease (ie short legs). When I got back into the class for two regattas last year (in Radials) it was interesting to see that (as Tony B says) the fleet seems to be sailing lower these days - or else I was pinching because of the Laser's weather helm. Even in tiny chop, I was struggling to get to the top mark in the top 12 of 55 until the brain finally switched on in the last race and the bow went down about 2 inches. Voila, most of the old pace was back.

In the past, I never found there was much difference between big rig and little rig, apart from the obvious lack of power when pulling the boat back down after a roll tack. With the Mk 5 (or 4??) my outhaul was basically fixed so the sail is one fist-and-thumb width from the boom at the deepest point. In light airs when the boom was about 12-16" from the deck, about 1.5" extra pull on the vang (after setting mainsheet height seems to be right. As you said, G, the top of the sail looks horribly closed but it seems to work. Marchaj's studies indicate that low-aspect sails can be trimmed harder than high aspect rigs; perhaps that is what's happening?

Once the main starts to tighten to block to block (which is quite early, although "quite" isn't much use as a quantitative term!) the vang is tensioned initially so there is no load on it (it's just got enough tension to stop the boom lifting if you have a sudden gust or a duck) until one starts to get overpowered on block-to-block. Then the vang starts coming on harder and harder; I felt in a breeze upwind I was at least as quick as arch-rival Adam French, who eases vang at the top of the range. I had more height, perhaps more VMG, but used to get trapped at the top of the groove which reduced tactical options. I understand the "tighter vang=go low" concept but it never seemed to work for me. In my only two medium-air races (1 at Masters, 1 at Coasts) last year in the champs (basically light winds), the speed using these setting was still excellent (although it should be since I'm 74-75kg now rather than 70-71) with close seconds to Dave Early & Kristen Kosmala respectively.

I never used to ease downhaul downwind and found at last year's Masters that I had actually picked up speed over Adam French downwind; like Dave Early (we were similar speed) and Peter Heywood etc he was sailing with outhaul eased on the squares. Obviously these world champs are convinced it's quick but I never had a boatspeed advantage off the breeze over Adam before, so maybe once again the moral is to concentrate on waves, using no rudder, mainsheet and vang? But I think the real reason is that sailing the Windsurfer One Design is good for your downwind speed (hint hint).

Heel- as little as possible in my experience (apart perhaps from very heavy nasty sloppy chop in 5-8 knots). Throw the body aft in gusts to hoik the boat up onto the wind as the tiller goes down (taking weight off the helm rather than pushing it down, from memory).

Sailing a Windsurfer One Design in the nationals will be very good practise for the Radial, and we'll have two weeks to get back into the Laser before the states. Not that I'm trying to put pressure on you! :)

You had good speed in your Radial most of the time, when the ole' blue 52225 went out to play with you at the 'Wang. There was just one nasty hole where you dropped back, so you know you can do it.

The Dobroyd fleet is just 10m from the end of the freeway in Sydney. After the Windsurfer nationals we may do some training and racing at DAC on Saturday and choof off down to play in some waves on Sunday at times; could be a good time for you to come along. You're welcome to crash at our place near DAC.

Chris T; Radial 52225 etc.
 
Cindy, Tony, Compman2 and Michelle,

Thanks for your comments, I will study your notes and focus on getting the bow down more, experiment with vang settings as suggested and try to get used to sailing at the bottom of the groove more often. (The latter does make it harder to pick lifts in lake sailing and in the kinds of downdraft gusts we regularly get on our lake footing rarely pays consistently - In the standard have beat nacra 5.2s and a 20ft lightweight sharpie upwind sailing very high in the groove, following each downburst or velocity shift in these conditions to walk the boat upwind. Sailing very high and tacking a lot on each very localised lift in these conditions can work in the Standard, because there seems to be ample available power to re-accelerate if you get close to a stall-but this power doesn't seem there with the radial - instead I seem to have to use kinetics and tourque the boat around to break out of a stall.)

I will also experiment more with outhaul as a throttle- although in some conditions the foot on my Mk5 sail flaps incessently at certain vang/outhaul settings - asked a visiting radial champ how to avoid this but he just said 'some sails just do that'.

At a recent championship I noticed most top radials were sheeting very nearly two blocked upwind well before I would normally get there (wind strenth-wise) in a Standard. As you say, in these conditions there were often still faint luff creases suggesting only moderate Cunningham - and virtually no one had the tack down significantly close to the boom. Vang and outhaul tension was harder to judge because the bottom third of the sail was still quite full - but there was not an excessive gap between the foot and the boom. Almost all were very new Mk6 sails though. The top sailors rarely seemed to ease much in the gusts (tight vang would help disguise this since there was virtually no boom rise?) but they did tourke the boat down, along and then back up to a higher angle. Reminded me a bit of Windsurfer racing years back.

The really top sailors seemed to hold the boat just about as flat as is needed in the Standard - but sat further back than I am used to (but there was small random chop). The nearly top sailors often were more heeled but still rock steady and under 10 degrees. These had simmilar speed but I sensed that the top sailors were also squeezing every bit of weather gauge out of their boats momentarily (a few milliseconds at a time as wind and chop permitted). Using this technique of consolidating windward gauge when they could, without loosing critical speed and foil efficiency - their VMG was quite impressive overall. Coming to grips with being able to sense this critical speed while sailing low and reacting instinctively in an appropriate fashion seems to be the converse of what I am used to sailing high in the Standard - kind of like remembering to veer to the right when you meet an oncoming car at a crest on a country road in the States (In Australia you need to veer left).

Michelle is right - you can never stop learning. Would be interested in how frequently you adust vang/outhaul on the beat.
 
Chris,

Appreciate the comments - was impressed (and confounded) by how refined the sailing has become amongst some of the top radial sailors. Moving from the Standard to the radial in serious competition is certainly not as straight forward as many imagine - at least not if you want continuous good speed and still be able to 'keep your head out of the boat' to take advantage of wind and waves and find good channels in a big fleet etc.

I am still working on getting my son fired up for the 30th Windsurfer one Design 30th anniversary bash at Batemans - Sue says we should just go and I'm inclined to agree. Still have to make some arrangements around work commitments, but it sounds like it's shaping up to a great event attracting both new youth interest and a Masters revival (other members check this out at www.windsurferonedesign.googlepages.com/home or www.windsurfing.org)

Would also like to visit DAC sometime in the New year - haven't sailed there since we lived at Drummoyne some years back (quite a few years actually) - but enjoyed the racing there and could certainly do with more tips on how to get the Radial sorted. Will check out the website calendar and give you a ring when I can organise something.

Best wishes for Christmas - hope to catch up in the New Year
 
Hi Glasky,

It's interesting that you have noticed the top radial sailors sit farther back than you are used to in a full rig; I'll have to pay attention to that and see if people do that here.

>Would be interested in how frequently you adust vang/outhaul on the beat.

I probably don't adjust my controls enough compared to faster people because I'm trying to keep my head out of the boat and not get distracted or frustrated by having less power because I'm in a radial. I leave my outhaul for the beat and will play either the cunningham or vang, depending on conditions or what I'm in the mood for. Since I'm usually sailing with a loose cunningham and maximum power in the outhaul, my only option in the radial in light to med winds is to play the vang. In that way it seems simpler than the full rig sail.

Do you sail flat in chop? I usually feel like I go through the slop we get on Biscayne Bay a little better with a slight heel, or at least some of the water rushing down your deck goes off to the side and not all in the cockpit when you hit a bad wave!
 
Michelle,

I've found that what works for me is to let the boat naturally heel 10-20 degrees to leeward as it climbs a wave face (not using rudder), then just as it reaches the crest give a big pump back to center and steer down. The pump is a throw your shoulders out sort of thing, and if you do it right the mast will flex and snap forward, shooting the boat over the crest and helping with pointing the boat down.

As far as I know, this isn't an illegal use of kinetics, only using heel to steer....?
A slight (about 2") ease of the main before and corresponding trim after the maneuver also accompanies it.
 
Michelle,
The observation that most of the top sailors at a recent Masters championship seemed to be sitting further back (than expected) as they reached to windward was coupled with 'putting the bow down for speed' and then tourquing it back up to mid-groove - a bit like the end of a roll tack (from about 6-7kts up and small but confused chop like a washing machine at times- and big fleet confused air). In the very very light stuff they did move foreward - but as soon as they got to half hike they were back off the cleat.

My 'aim' (not always achieved) is to sail flat in chop - but as computeroman2 indicates - sometimes instead of steering I try to use the the chop (i.e. tourque off the chop) to head up and follow it with the tiller to minimise drag. This is good as long as you can stay in sync with the chop/swell but if you loose concentration of hit a rough patch you need to vary the response (particularly if this also coincides with disturbed or bad air)- this is another thing I am struggling to get down to an automatic response level in the radial - somehow I seem to have the right conditioned reflexes to keep the boat moving and recover in a standard bit in the radial I just stagger..

Chris T 's advice about keeping your head outside the boat and focusing on wind/wave opportunities (and your approach in doing this also) is probably the way to go.

His suggestions on tourquing the boat are also in line with Computeroman2's suggestions: i.e.
'Heel- as little as possible in my experience (apart perhaps from very heavy nasty sloppy chop in 5-8 knots). Throw the body aft in gusts to hoik the boat up onto the wind as the tiller goes down (taking weight off the helm rather than pushing it down, from memory).'

Would ask Chris T for more specific advice on how to best handle Biscayne Bay conditions - he has taken out some major championships in these kinds of conditions in the Radial and seems to be able to analyze 'why' and 'when' to switch techniques - probably from the windsurfing and other class sailing he has done.
 
Hey, a small question. what weight is good for radial or for standaard, i've being sailing full rig for about 5 years, butt that was'nt quit working, so my coach wants me to go sail radial, to get more competition and with a bit wind even a few wins cause of my heigher weight. Im 1m 84 high, and have weight about 85kg, now its already about 78kg, working on getting as close to 70 kg as possible. iam kinda having second toughts, i trained last week with about 3-4 bfts with gusts up to 5, and it went quitte well, up wind nice and flat, and much faster then i did with my full rig, altough i fear for the less windy races.

Greetz Tom Laser BEL 120343
 
I think it pays to be about median (around 150 lbs.). I'm on the light end, and I have somewhat of a speed advantage in light air but that disapears once the wind comes up and is a detriment above about 15 knots.
 
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