Running tips

Alysum

Alysum

Member
Hi,

Last saturday in 12+ knots I was struggling when running. Hard to keep the boat balanced and I capsized to winward :mad:

I did raise the centreboard, sit at the front of the cockpit above the hiking strap.

Any tips welcomed !
 
Its all about where you have the sail, if you let it out too far you will go in to windward, pull it in too far and you will go the other way. a good tip to rescue a death roll is to bear away hard and sheet in a bit, it's also good to be pretty mobile in the boat so you can get to the leeward rail while you're busy doing all that stuff.

Try not to be tempted to put too much vang on, that makes your boat hard to steer and is less effective that keeping the sheet under control.
 
Thanks thats useful info.
How about the cunningham and outhaul ? Usually they are very loose in downwind but when it's a bit hard to handle (especially for a beginner) should I pull the cunningham a bit for more stability ?
 
I tie a knot on my mainsheet for when the boom is at 90 degrees to centerline. I have no vang or cunningham on and my outhaul is about two fists. What you want to do is have the daggerboard about 12 inches up, and you want to heel the boat to windward, and ease the sail out to the knot (you may feel like you are losing control...this is good), when you start losing control and heeling very far to windward, flatten the boat, heel to leeward, trim in and let the boat head itself up to about a broad reach. Then, flatten the boat hard and repeat the proccess. If you are losing control too much, move back in the boat a couple of inches so your weight is on the flat aft section. Remember, feeling like you are losing control is alright, you just need to work on flattening the boat and S-curving so that the out of control feeling benefits you. Good Luck.

Tim Clark
 
Okay but I must admit it's going to be hard to heel to windward when that's where a death roll starts !
So I understand I should be sitting on the starboard side and not in the middle to heel to windward ?
 
and when you do start to wipe out to weather . Let go of the tiller and flail away on the mainsheet.

If the rudder drops back into the water. Grab the tiller, east the sail and keep going.

if the wipeout continues, you will have the mainsheet in your hand and the boat will likely dump to leeward after you wash off. That is an easy boat to right and you lose little distance righting and getting going again.

Leaping to the weather rail rarely works and the result of being up there is your boat, with boom high in the sky, is still under full power as the tip of the mast hits the water and you and your boat have enough momentum to bend the top section...which is slow and expensive as well.

It really does not take long to figure out where your borderline for flipping to weather lies. Then you can live on that that edge of dumping where the fastest sailing resides.

Note: You can search the archives of this or the old laser email list archives and find endless discussions about this subject.
 
how do I access the old archives ? I did notice this forum didn't have many threads and must have had an older one somewhere
 
TimClark said:
I tie a knot on my mainsheet for when the boom is at 90 degrees to centerline. I have no vang or cunningham on and my outhaul is about two fists. What you want to do is have the daggerboard about 12 inches up, and you want to heel the boat to windward, and ease the sail out to the knot (you may feel like you are losing control...this is good), when you start losing control and heeling very far to windward, flatten the boat, heel to leeward, trim in and let the boat head itself up to about a broad reach. Then, flatten the boat hard and repeat the proccess. If you are losing control too much, move back in the boat a couple of inches so your weight is on the flat aft section. Remember, feeling like you are losing control is alright, you just need to work on flattening the boat and S-curving so that the out of control feeling benefits you. Good Luck.

Tim Clark
Click to expand...

Just a stupid question!!

If the knot in your main will not let the boom go past 90 degrees how do you sail by the lee if required??

I use to do this and stopped because I could not sail well by the lee. Now I move the knot so it is about 2 ft past that 90 degree point.
 
Alysum said:
how do I access the old archives ? I did notice this forum didn't have many threads and must have had an older one somewhere
Click to expand...

Use the Search feature, located on the bar along the top.

Something to look forward to--the Winter 2007 Laser Sailor magazine has an article entitled "How to avoid a deathroll in a Laser."
 
Alysum said:
Thanks thats useful info.
How about the cunningham and outhaul ? Usually they are very loose in downwind but when it's a bit hard to handle (especially for a beginner) should I pull the cunningham a bit for more stability ?
Click to expand...

No, pulling the cunningham is going to open the leech more which contributes to some of the instability.

When having problems learning to sail downwind, it's the vang, mainsheet and daggerboard that you will use to determine how wild a ride you want. Looking at the physics of it, once the leech of the sail is past 90 degrees to the centerline, the force from the sail is helping to heel the boat to windward. Easiest way judge the leech angle is thru the boom relative to centerline.

When the vang is loose, the leech is able to twist open in puffs too, so even though you may have the mainsheet trimmed in so the leech is less then 90 degrees, a puff comes along and twists open the leech again causing instability. So if you have the boom less the 90 degrees and the boat still wants to rock to windward, tighten the vang until the leech closes.

Lastly, daggerboard position will allow or help stop the rocking - too far up will allow it, pushing it down will help stop it. 12" up is a pretty good stable starting point in 12 knots.

Take a look over on the Rooster Sailing site, Steve has some good reading and vids on downwind sailing..
http://www.roostersailing.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=hints&Store_Code=1
 
It may be a few degrees past 90 but not much. I do this for the days when it's ripping and having the boom past 90 degrees will cause you to deathroll. Anyways, when I am s-curving I don't just keep sailing by the lee, I am constantly heading up and bearing off and I will only sail by the lee for a few seconds.
 
Go to the Rooster Website and click on "Hints and tips" and read the article on "the 4th dimension"
www.Roostersailing.com
The Death roll is always a danger, even for the best sailors, since you will be fastest when are close to capsizing. How to learn: practice, swim, practice swim and start over again.
Leave off the cunningham, set the vang as loose as you dare. The thing is that if you let it go too loose more sail will be in front of the mast and push you over. You want the leech to pop open or to flick in a puff. To have the vang tighter is save, but could bend your mast. It is also slower.

Good luck!

Georg
 
I find pulling the vang on powers up the sail near the leach as well. this has the effect of trying to round the boat up to windward and dragging the tiller out of my hand, loose is good, just a little in a honk to stop my boom ending up vertical.
 
So far, 49208's is the only response I really agree with. I would only add that, while dropping the daggerboard does help stop rolling, down too far will cause the boat to "trip" over all that drag, facillitating the death roll. When running in big air, I usually set it about halfway down.
 
I agree with Fosq.

I'll also add that you need most of the daggerboard in the water when boatspeed is low, but as you go faster you need less surface area to get the same amount of lift. Therefore at 12 knots I would have the board most of the way down and at 30 it should be as high as you can get it.

Another note- It's been my experience that S-turns are easier to handle in terms of fear factor but that pulling a dead-level straight jibe even in big air is much more controlled because the direction of sail force never changes much and you're not fighting inertia from a large direction change.
 
That's the opposite of what I have learned. When it's light and you're gliding downwind by the lee with a big heel to windward, have the board up pretty far. When it's honking and there are waves to catch, you will be more stable and track better with it down most of the way. I don't think I have seen anybody in 30 kts with their board up high unless they're reaching.

Asylum must be totally confused by now!
 
Sorry, I probably should've clarified more.
From a purely engineering standpoint, at a slower speed you need more lift surface to achieve the same amount of lift force. Also once you get past the critical point of lift necessary the extra lift created becomes drag. Following that, in light air the board is down farther than in heavy air. However, Racing Rule number 1 precludes this: right-side up is fast, upside-down is slow. So if you need the stability, put it down. If you don't, bring it up as much as you can.
Downwind in light air you want the board about halfway up and higher as the wind builds, until you can't keep it upright in which case put it down again.
Think upside-down parabola.
 
Thanks to everyone who responded to the thread.
Yes I have been a bit confused with all the different opinions ! :D but I shall try them all out some day.
I think I first need to master the normal straight downwind before learning the by the lee and later the S-curving.
I did some sailing yesterday in 12 knots again and did better on the downwind by putting the centreboard further down than usual and I would trim a bit when it starts to heel to windward. I also tightened the vang a bit more this time, so far not too bad but can do better for sure !
Regarding cockpit positioning where should I really sit ? I was kinda squatted in the middle of the cockpit on top on the strap.

To not confuse this and as I'm still learning all the sailing language; when you say put more kicker on does it mean loosen or tighten the vang ? Also when you say the leach is in front of the mast does it mean looking from the cockpit the leach is behind the mast :confused:
 
When you sail downwind, you should be sitting on the deck of the boat, do not sit in the middle. It is alright if the boat is heeling to windward, that's what it should be doing downwind. At first it may feel wierd having the boat heel to windward, but it's alright, you will get used to it eventually. You don't want to sit in the cockpit.

When people say put more kicker on that means to tighten the vang.

When people say the leech is in front of the mast they mean it is closer to the bow than the mast.
 
The movie looks good, altough, if the boats swings as much as that, and there is a juryboat, the yelow flag wil come soon :)
 
i think for both, ive been flagged and seen people get flagged for less. My new trainer is an international judge and if they see a boat rocking so much in a race, you've got it, i get warned enough at training:) .
 
That is illegal. You can rock that much, however you need to be heading up and bearing down using the rocking motion, which they aren't. If I find a good video of s-curving I'll post it.
 
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