I decided I want to get back in a Laser after selling mine 7 years ago and I just came across what looks like a reasonably sound boat that's just old. I can practically steal it but I'm wondering if it wouldn't make more sense to just spend more money on a newer/nicer boat and avoid any potential headaches. If I do buy this boat I'd replace most of the hardware, all the lines and probably upgrade to some performance accessories and probably end up refinishing the hull in navy. On the other hand I could spend 3-4k on a nice boat and call it a day. I dig projects like this as long as there aren't any huge surprises down the line so I suppose what I'd like to hear from you people is some insight on how well the older boats hold up structurally. It doesn't LOOK like there's any significant damage, but how well do these boats hide it? I'd appreciate you sharing anything you feel I might need to know.
Refurbish a great bargain or spend more on a newer boat?
- Thread starter LetItHang
- Start date
bjmoose
Member
What I'm reading in your post is that you get satisfaction out of bringing something older up to newer and usable condition. If so, that's cool, but don't expect to get fair value out of your time invested. If it's just about condition and sailing, and you can afford the newer boat, go ahead and buy the newer boat in better condition, and you'll be way ahead in time and headaches.
But assuming you're going down the "older boat" avenue for its own sake:
What you really want to do is check the old boat for stiffness.
Any single isolated problem in an older boat can be fixed, but if the deck has become delaminated from its foam core in more than a single small isolated place, or the hull has lack of stiffness (especially from being trailered on bunks) or crushed (from being "ratcheted down") onto the trailer bunks, those probs are difficult to solve, and a boat in better condition is called for.
Go down the deck pressing on it with your thumbs "reasonably firmly" looking for soft/delaminated spots. The idea isn't to push so hard that you're creating "cracking" noises -- this isn't a destructive test. You're looking for places that have already delaminated.
Flip the boat over and do the same on the hull.
Fill the mast step with water. Does it hold? That's a good thing. Leaky mast step is fixable, (search the forum) but it's a pain to do, and I wouldn't start with a boat with a leaky mast step unless everything else was excellent.
Check the spars for corrosion. If they're corroded around the tang points, you'll need to "reverse" them or replace. This is an issue for salt water boats.
Check the condition of the sail. If it's nice, crinkly crispy, you're ahead of the game. If not, for 150/200 you can buy a used one that's been used for a season or less by one of the "serious" racers in your area. One word of wisdom I've heard from others is "don't buy a new sail (500) to put on old spars.
If you buy an old boat, you'll probably spend somewhere between 500 to 1000 to bring it up to racing condition, depending on how resourceful you are. Extremely resourceful/frugal folks may spend less. Personally, I really like all the "pro rigging" upgrades (outhaul/vang/cunningham/clew-sleeve) but others have resourcefully upgraded the old pieces in place.
Pretty much everyone wants to use a dolly to launch, and old boats don't come with them. It's a pain to have to plunk down 400 for a new Seitech, when a dolly only adds 200 to the value of an older boat that's already got one.
When you upgrade to new vang, you'll need to rebuild the old boom, putting in a reinforcing sleeve. When I did this, I decided it was best to replace the entire tube with a "broken" upper mast section (since it's longer, it can be made into a boom.) This is a fairly common thing to do. I saved about half the cost of a new boom, at the cost of about one full saturday of my time.
From what I've seen, age has little to do with these aspects of condition. Some pretty new boats have been "sailed into the ground" in tough conditions and gone soft. (See discussion elsewhere of olympic atheletes training 200 days a year...)
Conversely, some 70s boats were owned by families, sailed on lakes on calm days, and are in remarkably good and stiff condition. A repeated refrain I hear from folks on the dock is "some of those old boats are really fast."
Finally, it's really cool to own one of the older boats that has the wooden centerboard and rudder. As with having a classic car, folks will walk up to you and comment on it.
Your question is a common theme on these forums, and has been asked and answered many times. Browse the old topics and search for such keywords as
"stiffness"
"corrosion"
"leak"
"mast step repair"
"vacuum" (checking for leaks)
"gel coat"
"rigging upgrade"
etc... you get the idea.
Good luck with your search.
But assuming you're going down the "older boat" avenue for its own sake:
What you really want to do is check the old boat for stiffness.
Any single isolated problem in an older boat can be fixed, but if the deck has become delaminated from its foam core in more than a single small isolated place, or the hull has lack of stiffness (especially from being trailered on bunks) or crushed (from being "ratcheted down") onto the trailer bunks, those probs are difficult to solve, and a boat in better condition is called for.
Go down the deck pressing on it with your thumbs "reasonably firmly" looking for soft/delaminated spots. The idea isn't to push so hard that you're creating "cracking" noises -- this isn't a destructive test. You're looking for places that have already delaminated.
Flip the boat over and do the same on the hull.
Fill the mast step with water. Does it hold? That's a good thing. Leaky mast step is fixable, (search the forum) but it's a pain to do, and I wouldn't start with a boat with a leaky mast step unless everything else was excellent.
Check the spars for corrosion. If they're corroded around the tang points, you'll need to "reverse" them or replace. This is an issue for salt water boats.
Check the condition of the sail. If it's nice, crinkly crispy, you're ahead of the game. If not, for 150/200 you can buy a used one that's been used for a season or less by one of the "serious" racers in your area. One word of wisdom I've heard from others is "don't buy a new sail (500) to put on old spars.
If you buy an old boat, you'll probably spend somewhere between 500 to 1000 to bring it up to racing condition, depending on how resourceful you are. Extremely resourceful/frugal folks may spend less. Personally, I really like all the "pro rigging" upgrades (outhaul/vang/cunningham/clew-sleeve) but others have resourcefully upgraded the old pieces in place.
Pretty much everyone wants to use a dolly to launch, and old boats don't come with them. It's a pain to have to plunk down 400 for a new Seitech, when a dolly only adds 200 to the value of an older boat that's already got one.
When you upgrade to new vang, you'll need to rebuild the old boom, putting in a reinforcing sleeve. When I did this, I decided it was best to replace the entire tube with a "broken" upper mast section (since it's longer, it can be made into a boom.) This is a fairly common thing to do. I saved about half the cost of a new boom, at the cost of about one full saturday of my time.
From what I've seen, age has little to do with these aspects of condition. Some pretty new boats have been "sailed into the ground" in tough conditions and gone soft. (See discussion elsewhere of olympic atheletes training 200 days a year...)
Conversely, some 70s boats were owned by families, sailed on lakes on calm days, and are in remarkably good and stiff condition. A repeated refrain I hear from folks on the dock is "some of those old boats are really fast."
Finally, it's really cool to own one of the older boats that has the wooden centerboard and rudder. As with having a classic car, folks will walk up to you and comment on it.
Your question is a common theme on these forums, and has been asked and answered many times. Browse the old topics and search for such keywords as
"stiffness"
"corrosion"
"leak"
"mast step repair"
"vacuum" (checking for leaks)
"gel coat"
"rigging upgrade"
etc... you get the idea.
Good luck with your search.
Great post man, I really appreciate it. Money isn't an issue but I'm a sucker for a deal and I can't justify a new boat when I could potentially "build" an old boat exactly the way I want it for less than half the price. My fear is that it could turn into a nightmare where I have to sink new boat money into the project just to make it useable. I'm going to see it again today with your suggestions in hand so I can give it a better look, inventory everything and get an exact age. It's at least 15y/o, probably closer to 20, but it's spent most of it's life as a small fun boat for a very competent big boat owner. As a car stereo hobbyist I have quite a bit of experience working with glass while fabbing car stereo speaker cabinets, so I'm comfortable with the material and small fixes won't be a problem. Big fixes wouldn't be a problem either, I just don't want a time consuming headache that will keep me from getting it on the water for the last couple weeks of the season. I'll update later today with some pics.
Gave the boat a solid once over and it was pretty encouraging.
ZFS64692M781
Pros: SOLID, solid hull with no sign whatsoever of delamination... very stiff boat... newish performance lines, nice blades, fart around sail and a very new looking competition sail
Cons: older than I thought, repaired step tube, leaky buttplug that takes on about a cup of water/hour, vomit yellow in color, lots of superficial scratches, original hardware
I'm going to sit on it for a couple days and see what else is out there but I'm feeling pretty good about it.
ZFS64692M781
Pros: SOLID, solid hull with no sign whatsoever of delamination... very stiff boat... newish performance lines, nice blades, fart around sail and a very new looking competition sail
Cons: older than I thought, repaired step tube, leaky buttplug that takes on about a cup of water/hour, vomit yellow in color, lots of superficial scratches, original hardware
I'm going to sit on it for a couple days and see what else is out there but I'm feeling pretty good about it.