Radial or 4.7 experience in big wind?

Eyeper

Eyeper

Active Member
I am just about 68 years old. I weigh 182 lbs, and have been sailing my Laser for 34 years, mostly in pretty breezy conditions on Tomales Bay, CA. I don't race at all. Lately I have been loving the new square-head Intensity sail for less windy days, and the Standard rig for most of the windier ones. I like to think I handle the boat well, but today it was blowing Force 7 out there and my tennis elbow is acting up so I came home with a dry, un-launched Laser. Never having tried one, I am looking for some feedback on the Radial - or the 4.7.

Will that shorter lower mast section stand up to my weight in a big blow, and still allow me a few more years of nuking? Any advice, experience/ideas are welcome.

Dennis
 
Good for you!
I do recommend a radial for those super windy days. You will need the shorter lower mast and a radial sail. Since you don't race, Intensity Sails can be your friend.
 
Thanks, Wavedancer! Yes, Intensity is already my friend. They are a great resource for the non-racers like me. Now I am wondering if the Radial is what I need, or maybe even the smaller 4.7? Here's how I used to reef my full rig in the kind of conditions I'm talking about. (blowing a gybe here, but didn't end up swimming)
Reefed.JPG
 
Eyeper said:
Now I am wondering if the Radial is what I need, or maybe even the smaller 4.7?
Click to expand...
Regarding getting nuked out yesterday at Tomales, I feel your pain. ;)

Here's my 2 cents/ramble. A Radial is 82% of the sail area of the Standard Laser sail. A 4.7 is 67% of the sail area of the Standard Laser sail. So, a 4.7 is 15% "smaller" (82% minus 67%) than the Radial relative to the size of the Standard.

So... seems to me it wouldn't be too hard to pull 15% of the power out of a Radial via vang, cunningham and outhaul so that you've got the "power" of a 4.7. If I did the math right and my theory even makes sense.

One thing I've learned from 25+ years of windsurfing is sailing in strong conditions (a fair amount of that time at Tomales) is easier when I'm a bit overpowered than being a bit underpowered.

Not an easy decision as you've got to pony up the dough for another lower mast section too.

- Andy
 
I'm a few yrs younger and a few pounds lighter, and also don't race. I own the standard plus both the radial + 4.7, both from Intensity. I like them all, and usually take 2 sails (+lower masts) in the car, and choose when I can see the water.

Andy's got the numbers- it's just how much wind you want to go out in. I use the radial up to like 15, or gusts up to maybe around 20. Then I can use the 4.7 up to 25-30, gusting into the 30's.

The other thing I'll add from my own perspective, is that the boat is more stable, less jumpy under the shorter masts, in an unstable wind and more wave action. It's a smaller sail for sure, and you can de-power it for sure, but the shorter mast also lowers the center of force of the sail - so that force acts on a shorter lever arm. To me that makes the boat much easier to handle under the radial or the 4.7 in a couple ways -
- when a change in wind speed or direction hits that either increases or decreases the force on the boat, it rolls less quickly and less severely, and responds more quickly to me moving my weight to correct for it ... this is true whether the speed/direction shift increases force or decreases it;
- as the waves get bigger + the boat rolls+pitches more, the roll+pitch movement creates less difference in the force of the sail and the heeling "moment";
- and also with roll + pitch, there's less weight above the boat swinging around, and it's lower down, so it seems easier to control the roll/pitch of the hull with my weight.

FWIW ... YMMV.
 
andyatos said:
Regarding getting nuked out yesterday at Tomales, I feel your pain. ;)

Here's my 2 cents/ramble. A Radial is 82% of the sail area of the Standard Laser sail. A 4.7 is 67% of the sail area of the Standard Laser sail. So, a 4.7 is 15% "smaller" (82% minus 67%) than the Radial relative to the size of the Standard.

So... seems to me it wouldn't be too hard to pull 15% of the power out of a Radial via vang, cunningham and outhaul so that you've got the "power" of a 4.7. If I did the math right and my theory even makes sense.

One thing I've learned from 25+ years of windsurfing is sailing in strong conditions (a fair amount of that time at Tomales) is easier when I'm a bit overpowered than being a bit underpowered.

Not an easy decision as you've got to pony up the dough for another lower mast section too.

- Andy
Click to expand...
Excellent advice, Andy! And I do recall in those days we reefed the standard rig by wrapping it around the mast and removing the top batten was that the resulting sail shape was horrible, and not efficient, but it allowed one to wallow around without getting knocked down so frequently. Next step: checking the radial sail and lower sections for price pain....
cskudder said:
I'm a few yrs younger and a few pounds lighter, and also don't race. I own the standard plus both the radial + 4.7, both from Intensity. I like them all, and usually take 2 sails (+lower masts) in the car, and choose when I can see the water.

Andy's got the numbers- it's just how much wind you want to go out in. I use the radial up to like 15, or gusts up to maybe around 20. Then I can use the 4.7 up to 25-30, gusting into the 30's.

The other thing I'll add from my own perspective, is that the boat is more stable, less jumpy under the shorter masts, in an unstable wind and more wave action. It's a smaller sail for sure, and you can de-power it for sure, but the shorter mast also lowers the center of force of the sail - so that force acts on a shorter lever arm. To me that makes the boat much easier to handle under the radial or the 4.7 in a couple ways -
- when a change in wind speed or direction hits that either increases or decreases the force on the boat, it rolls less quickly and less severely, and responds more quickly to me moving my weight to correct for it ... this is true whether the speed/direction shift increases force or decreases it;
- as the waves get bigger + the boat rolls+pitches more, the roll+pitch movement creates less difference in the force of the sail and the heeling "moment";
- and also with roll + pitch, there's less weight above the boat swinging around, and it's lower down, so it seems easier to control the roll/pitch of the hull with my weight.

FWIW ... YMMV.
Click to expand...

Nice to hear from someone who has both the Radial and 4.7! The wave action and roll+pitch doesn't happen so much in Tomales Bay, but the big, steady straight-line Northwesterlies blow a lot over 20 and into the 30's this time of year. Now I'm thinking that since I can pretty much handle the Full Rig in the teens, and up to 20, it might be best for me to err on the side of the 25+ days and go with a 4.7......?
 
Well it's hard for me to know or guess too much about your situation there - I'd sure love to sail Tomales Bay someday but it hasn't happened yet. FWIW what I can say is that for my weight + strength, when it's blowing over 20 + into the 30's, that's surely a 4.7 day for me.

I'll also add that for me here, the other considerations are things like...
air temp
sun vs clouds
water temp
wave action- height, wavelength, steady+organized vs crossing/disorganized
how long do I have to be out there
how am I feeling today
... all will have me leaning towards bigger sail+more power or smaller sail+less power. Especially colder water temps and rougher water have me leaning towards the smaller sail.

Maybe you invest in whichever one seems most likely to work best, first. If then you find you want the other one, you can always add that to the stable later. These things aren't free + not cheap, but from Intensity they're not a huge investment either ... maybe space them out over a year or whatever.

But nuf said on all the technicalities. Just know that it does make me smile to hear about + know there's somebody else out there around my age who's out plowing up the water + having a ball on Laser. Godspeed to you!
 
cskudder said:
I'm a few yrs younger and a few pounds lighter, and also don't race. I own the standard plus both the radial + 4.7, both from Intensity. I like them all, and usually take 2 sails (+lower masts) in the car, and choose when I can see the water.

Andy's got the numbers- it's just how much wind you want to go out in. I use the radial up to like 15, or gusts up to maybe around 20. Then I can use the 4.7 up to 25-30, gusting into the 30's.

The other thing I'll add from my own perspective, is that the boat is more stable, less jumpy under the shorter masts, in an unstable wind and more wave action. It's a smaller sail for sure, and you can de-power it for sure, but the shorter mast also lowers the center of force of the sail - so that force acts on a shorter lever arm. To me that makes the boat much easier to handle under the radial or the 4.7 in a couple ways -
- when a change in wind speed or direction hits that either increases or decreases the force on the boat, it rolls less quickly and less severely, and responds more quickly to me moving my weight to correct for it ... this is true whether the speed/direction shift increases force or decreases it;
- as the waves get bigger + the boat rolls+pitches more, the roll+pitch movement creates less difference in the force of the sail and the heeling "moment";
- and also with roll + pitch, there's less weight above the boat swinging around, and it's lower down, so it seems easier to control the roll/pitch of the hull with my weight.

FWIW ... YMMV.
Click to expand...
All valuable advice "CK." Get yourself to Sonoma County CA sometime and we'll see to it you have bit of lodging and a Laser to sail on Tomales Bay. It's an awesome place. (I'll report which rig I end up buying)
- Dennis
 
Thanks Dennis that's very kind of you + I sure hope I'm able to take you up on that sometime soon. It looks like a beautiful place!
Chris
 
I would recommend downsizing to a Radial. With that rig, you should be able to fight Force 5 and perhaps Force 6 winds with some degree of success.
I doubt that anyone takes a Laser out in Force 7 (32-38 mph)...
Not even these guys:
 
Wavedancer said:
I would recommend downsizing to a Radial. With that rig, you should be able to fight Force 5 and perhaps Force 6 winds with some degree of success.
I doubt that anyone takes a Laser out in Force 7 (32-38 mph)...
Not even these guys:
Click to expand...
Yes, Wavedancer. A Laser in force 7 is just asking for trouble. (I'm leaning now toward the Radial)
George stuffs it.jpg
 
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