Pro Rigging vs. Classic

Rob B

Rob B

Well-Known Member
After 5 years away from the boat I had my first regatta back this weekend. I was the only guy w/the "classic" rigging on vang, cunningham, outhaul. In light air, less than 6, I saw no difference. However, when the breeze got up in the 9+ range I felt that my vang and cunningham controls were not up to snuff. Especially cunningham. Looks like folks are really honking that on as the breeze builds. Also noticed people play the outhaul now a days, ease downhill and adjust upwind. Am I correct in thinking I've got to upgrade to get more competitive?
 
Hi Rob B,

short answer: "Yes".

But look at the other TLF-threads (and also "drLaser", of course) for that what you need to buy (Bylaws ->Builder suplied fittings etc.) and where you can save your money, ok?!
Personally, I use the old systems in low winds and in strong winds I do some "riggtuning" <- makes life easyier and faster ;-)
bye
LooserLu
 
Having just spent finished my first three outings with the Harken 15:1 vang after sailing for a year with an old-style vang (upgraded with blocks to a free-running 8:1), I would have to say the new vang is *big* win. I'm still a bit nervous about really cranking it on upwind, but just being able to easily adjust the vang while reaching & running is a *huge* benefit.

Also, the couple of times I did "throw caution to the wind" and *really* try it upwind, I was surprised by the amount that it reduced the mainsheet tension I needed to use. A big benefit for someone with forearm tendon problems.

I haven't upgraded to the new cunningham & outhaul (yet), but I do have an 8:1 cunningham with blocks running to the old-style deck hardware. It's an improvement over the old "thimble-block" arrangement (esp. for releasing the cunningham going downwind), but the on-deck clam-cleat now seems *very* inconvenient compared with the new swiveling vang cleat. I'm now looking forward to the time when I can upgrade the deck hardware, too ($).

Cheers,

Geoff S.
DN US-5156/Laser 145234/Renegade 510
 
Bay the way what GeoffS says:
"...I'm now looking forward to the time when I can upgrade the deck hardware, too ($)."

I got the new original out-of-the-box-boat-builder fittings for the hull several weeks ago. Although Shevy/drLaser don´t like to hear this, last week/-end I cutted out 2 wholes for the inspectionports at "the daggerboard trunk" (means in the neighbourhood left and right of the big mainsheetblock at the hull). Next I want to do, is to mount the basic-plate for the cunningham/outhaul - blocks on the deck, but not with "normal" screws for wood, but with V2A-srews with nuts and a safty-plate under the decksurface.This normal screws don´t seem to me to be confidential to hold the power of the new controllines.
For the right (measurement-conform) place of the fittings I got the plans from ILCA-measurement-diagramms at ILCA-homepage.

Now my silly question:
Although I´m in "the club of over 1,95 m lenght", I´not able with my arm, to reach the area for screwing the little nuts to the basicplate from the new inspectinports. How to do this? With light-jamming the nuts temporary to a Bambusstick or so - like a monkey gets it´s Banana, if it could not reach it? :) ), or does anyone have a better idea? Of course, 2 persons are needed: 1 for screwing, 1 for holding the nuts and the saftyplate.

You know, I don´t want do cut out another whole for the mast inspectionport at the bow of the hull, yet (because: the maststep of this 27 years old hull looks like the 1st day - there is no need to make another inspectionport there now).

Thanks for answers
LooserLu
 
Lu, Have you tried using a long handled wrench or plyers? You will need something to hold the nut securely or it will be difficult to get it to hold and thread properly.
 
For the "bamboo stick method", when replacing rivets on my boom fittings with nuts and bolts, I used a small piece of timber which was slightly thicker than the nuts. Then drilled holes in the wood slightly smaller diameter than the nuts, but not all the way through, so there was a hole/depression that the nuts could be pretty tightly wedged in to. Then when passing the stick down the boom the nuts didn't get dislodged by small bumps.
Then again everyone I know has just used screws and I've never heard of the fittings pulling out.
 
Hi Alan, Hi Rob,
thanks, good idea that with that timber. I will try on thursday (public holiday here in GER). My Idea I had just after yours was to take here so called "bits" (not that for the head of the srews but these for the nuts, we also call these bits "bones") and fix this on a alustick with a 90 degree edge you understand. But this with the timber, your Idea seems to be better. And then for the strong screwing at the end I will take a suitable wrench.
My experiance of it I will give at the tread at the end of the week.
Bye
LooserLu

P.S. : Alan, some years ago I was bowman and strong sailing spinnaker. There I have seen breaking simply srewed fittings several times! Since then, I never use again this time. Maybe you are right, but I don´t like to put a risc on it, you understand... ;)
 
The total load of the two lines in the new cleats is less than the load borne by the old cunningham alone. The new plate also provides a good base so the load is really only in sheer.
If screws held your old cleat, they'll hold the new base.
For anyone who's worried about it, you can do as Geoff says and bed the screws in epoxy, but this makes it super hard to get the screws out if you need to change a cleat or something. A slight variation on this is to liberally wax the screws before you put them in the holes with epoxy. This way the screws have a good hard surface to grip to, but you can remove them when needed. Simply goo the screws with silicon when you re-install them.
Whatever you do, make sure the wood backing block under the deck is DRY.
 
@ Geoff
Thank you :) I didn´t thought about this technology. It seems to be unknown here. I have to think about it very deep. (The Laser bow eye I use also with "high-tension-rope" while driving {always 70mph...} with the Laser car-topped -it could be that this plastik-peace-bow-eye fly away.)

@ Mr. Kirkpatrick
I know, you are from the out-of-the-box-boat-builder Vanguard. So your words seems to give us readers some experiance/feedback from the professional producer.
From my side, I can tell you, as I already told above: This hull from Performance Sailcraft UK looks inside really good (maybe the former owners handled it in the way it should always be, and it seems to be not often sailed.): The woodplate is "1a" although the hull is 27 years old :).
So Mr. Kirkpatrick, if you can say definitely, that there is no problem to take the old wholes, then I 1st try your minimal-invasive-"method". If this doesn´t work, and the fitting pulls out, then I let you know this here. Can you agree to this?
You know, I think, you are doing a gift to me, if you say "don´t get afraid, try it." It´s less bad work for me to do there at the hull :)
But I really can say you, I have seen not few blocks for the luff-sheet of the spi at "Pirat"-boats that where "flying away" in stronger winds, because they where fixed on the deck only by simple screws (without nuts)... :-(
I don´t want to see this anytime at my Laser.

[Appropo "Pro Rigging vs. Classic": what´s the standing now with this Carbon uppermasts (remember the threat Carbon spars)? - don´t forget it, ok ;-) ]
bye
LooserLu
DLAS-Member
GER 46438
 
Dave comments are all excellent; in particular, his comment about the magnitude of the forces on the new-style fittings is right on. If we assume that the mechanical advantage of the new rigging is higher than the old-style thimble arrangement, even bringing both outhaul and cunningham down to the deck shouldn't increase the loads on the hardware. However, it's important to remember that while the cleat-base fasteners are almost purely in shear, the block plate is in a combination of tension and shear.

I should have been more descriptive and verbose in my first note. There are a number of ways to make epoxy-bedded fasteners removable.

The easiest is to just heat the head of the fastener a little before removing it; the epoxy at the interface softens and the screw comes right out (a soldering-iron is an excellent point heat source). That technique would work with the block plate (since it's steel), but probably (?) not with the plastic cleat base.

Contaminating the screw threads with wax or silicone as Dave suggests is another way to help make the hardware removable if you bed them in unhardened epoxy. Another method is to fill the hole with epoxy, let it harden and then drill a new pilot hole and drive the screw into the epoxy-reenforced area (that is one of my favorite techniques as it allows you to move the hole slightly if needed).

If you choose either the "wet" or "dry" approach, it's best to fill the hole with un-thickened epoxy first, and let it soak into the surrounding material for a few minutes (you may need to add more epoxy if there is a lot of exposed wood-grain), then fill the hole with thickened epoxy (I prefer the WEST "High Density - 404" filler for this application). A syringe is essential for getting the epoxy down to the bottom of the hole. Where I live it's possible to buy them at farm-supply stores quite cheaply; otherwise WEST and other composite suppliers sell them.

Cheers,

Geoff S.
DN US-5156/Laser 145234/Renegade 510
 
Sorry, I am having a little trouble with your English. If you do as I have suggested and have a problem with it, then that would surprise me. If it is in the excellent shape that you describe, then I would simply make sure that the block is dry, then drip a small bit of epoxy into the holes in order to seal the wood block. Let that dry, then screw in with silicon on the screws.

Again, if the old cunningham cleat stayed in, the new fitting should not have any issues. There is less load on the new cleats than there was on the old one. If you have trouble with it, I am sure we will all want to know.

In other news, you are asking for trouble if you tie your boat tight to the car using the boweye. I have seen people rip the boweye straight out of the boat when doing this.

The big difference is that in the cunningham/outhaul base, the pull in the base is in shear - across the screws. In the case of the boweye, you are pulling that nearly straight out when using it to tie the boat to the car. In shear, the whole length of the screw is working. In tension (i.e. the boweye), only the threads on the screws are working. Big difference.
 
I don't know how to edit posts here, but Geoff posted with some good ideas while I was writing my response. He is right - the new base has a little bit more of a tension component than the cunningham cleat did. I was simplifying a bit. But the majority of the force is in shear, and the setup was proven in testing to be less load on the boat than the old cleat when typical loads were applied. Figure it this way - 2 times a marginal pull with my forearm (one each for cunningham and outhaul) is less load by far than a two arm pull, driven by my legs (how the old cunningham sometimes went on).
What's up with the rating deals on the threads?
 
Maybe Kirkpatrick is assuming that everyone is using a 10:1 (Vanguard) or 8:1 (PSE) downhaul. No such generalizations are in order.

And the "two arm pull, driven by my legs" was caused by friction! The same friction that helped reduce the load of the control line on the clam cleat!

The load on the cleat base CAN be more than with the old system.

I open a 1/2 inch hole, inject thinned epoxy into the wood backing, and fill the hole with WEST SYSTEM epoxy thickened with High Density Filler and then drill the pilot hole for the screws (as described in "drLaser" web site.)

Ludwig! Adding backing plates is illegal!

Shevy
 
Hi all,
night has ended here in GER and I saw all your good replys, for that what I will do tomrrow. Many thanks to all.

@
Shevy, that with the illegality of backing plates was new for me - a very important advice, I think. Ergo, I don´t use them, thanks.

@ Geoff
The "West" products are difficult to get here in GER for me, I try it with "UHU-schnellfest" (a German 2-component-adhesive epoxy-product, that could hold a maximum-tension of 1900N/cm² - I think this must be enough). From the point of viewing as civil-engineer (that I am), it is really interesting what you describe! (I´m not in practice with technical english in the moment, but I understand what you mean.)

@ Mr. Kirkpatrick
Sorry for my English. It´s like on that level like the funny - Book "English for runnaways"... Maybe, on the otherside, you now can imagine a little bit, how difficult it can be, to read correct for example the Laserclassrules in English, if this is not your native language... ;-)
To say it exacter: the wood plate is in best shape - "strong+extradry" and the Gelcoat has no tears/micro-scratches.

For the Laser-cartopping-aspect I will make a new thread, I think this is an important point to discuss seperatly, ok?!

I think here we must come back in this threat to Rob´s first question. Here is a question from my side to that what Rob aks in general:

Do you also use the new cunnigham system for (permanent) low winds, or isn´t it more useful to use an old fashioned (direct) way to rigg the Cunninham-controllines?
Why should I use a "X":1 Cunningham-controlsystem with several blocks in Bft 1-2? (The same, of course, I ask for the outhaul or the vang.)

bye-bye
LooserLu
DLAS-Member
GER 46438
 
@ Hi GeoffS,
at Reply #10 I promissed to give a feedback about the changing of the basic-plates:

I fixed the basic-plate for the blocks with normal stainless-steel-srews (without nuts).Before I have done this I did some epoxyglue to the wholes and let this dry. This was to fix the little bit broken gelcoat round the wholes and to isolate the old wholes. The screws hold strong in the fibreglass, now

After getting away the old clam-cleat for the cunningham-control-line two "hidden" cracks (were under the cleat) were to see at the old wholes. It was impossible to fix the new basic with normal screws without nuts. Glueing with epoxy etc was not successful to get back the needed friction for holding the normal screws. I took stainless-steel-screws with little and sheave two nuts for each screw and this was successful. The plate for the Curry-cleats now hold.

The testing was very successful! On Saturday, in suddenly-much-turning-around squall-winds up to 6-7 Bft (my personal top level) with a standard-rigg (added with: 6:1 outhaul, Shevy´s-new-cunningham-design and my selfmade-15:1-vang), all new goodies hold perfect and also the hull is dry inside…
I just had really a very wet day on a 27-years old, fast running and "singing" Laser... The only that I miss now, is my cap for the head (lost at the 1st reach) an my cheap sunglasses (lost aft some luff-capsizings on the run) :)
The last maybe is a good new interpretation for my nickname….

The West-marine-manual is really interesting, Geoff, thanks for this tip!

Bye-bye
LooserLu
 
> Why should I use a "X":1 Cunningham control system with several blocks in Bft 1-2?

Because the release is instantaneous.

Even in Force 1 or 2, you need some cunningham tension while sailing upwind to remove some of the major wrinkles on the sail's luff. Then, when it's time to release it completely on the reaches or runs, the "old system" fails! How many times have you had to reach forward to the mast to yank on one of the parts of your "standard" cunningham line to make sure the tack actually moves up along the mast??

The new FRICTIONLESS cunningham system provides instantaneous release while the old (thimbled) system with lots of friction may delay that release and cause undesired changes in the heel and trim of the hull trying to slacken the cunningham. The difference is insignificant when solo cruising, but a killer when competitive racing.

For the outhaul, the reason why the "standard" boom-cleated version inferior is much more obvious: you just can't release the old outhaul on reaches and runs, and trimming it is always a problem.

As for the vang, IMHO, there is no reason for one of those "XD" or "Turbo" or "Performance Upgrade" or custom high power-ratio vangs in Bft 1-2. In Philly where we have notoriously light winds, 12 of the 15 PLF (Philadelphia Laser Fleet) members have not invested in a new vang.

The Laser 4.7 World Champion (a member of the club I go to in Istanbul) is practicing every day without ANY of the new rigging! In Force 4 and 5! And she is just 104 lbs. But she is special. Are you?

:)

SG
 
Shevy,
you say:
"For the outhaul, the reason why the "standard" boom-cleated version inferior is much more obvious: you just can't release the old outhaul on reaches and runs, and trimming it is always a problem."

I´m not your opinion, if we talk about LOW winds, while most time sitting IN the boat. On the run: The outhaul cleat on the boom is mot far away for me. I have no problem to tune the controlline, if I want. For the cunnigham it´s the same.
Sailing downwinds (1-max 2 Bft.), I also have no problem to use the old cunnnigham"system" and the 1 (long) outhaul-control-line, I use in that LOW winds, is tuned onetime arround the mast and ends at the outhaulfairlead with a knot -no big problem for me to tune it.

P.S.: Shevy, you ask: "...But she is special. Are you?" I don´t understand whant you mean. I´m not special. I´m "Nobody"!!! - one of the 180000´s not more - not less!!
Peace + Goodbye to all!
LooserLu
 
Ludwig, my friend:

What you don't understand is that this is not PRIVATE e-mail. You and I, we do our private correspondence privately, right?

This is a public forum! No message written in this Forum is a private reply to any one person. For that, we have regular e-mail and features of this Forum such as "Sending a Private Message".

ANY message I post here is addressed to all 550+ subscribers of this group. No matter what is says in the salutation part.

So, "...But she is special. Are you?" was not addresing Ludwig! It was (and is) a generic question to ALL our subscibers! It simply says:

"Guys! This kid, all muscle, is practicing with the standard old way of rigging, but she is a World Champ. Scheidt could sail blindfolded and outperform us mortals. For us - the common Laserites - the addition of the blocks to the control systems has been very valuable, and yes, even in DRIFTING conditions". (See footnote.)

Cheers,

Shevy


PS. And I insist: "You just can't release the old outhaul on reaches and runs, and trimming it is always a problem." I don't understand how you, Ludwig, "achieve" these. Most probably, we have a difference in interpreting the verb "achieve".

For me, if you have to change the ideal heel and trim of the hull just because you want to adjust your outhaul, then you have NOT adjusted your outhaul. You've done less than that!
 
Shevy, I understand the differences between the possibilities to send a message, of course. Like in our classrules sometimes words can be interpretated in this and that way, thats the problem of 1000s of years (remember: "Babylon" ;-) ).

And Shevy, I´d like to show you, how I do the trimming in low winds with the old rigging - unfortunately we live 1000s of kilometers away from each other and the webcam of Port Olga at Lake Dümmer has only a low optical quality.
In winds over 2 Bft. Shevy, no discussion from my side. In my opinion, having the new rigging is "sometimes" most important - just only for getting surived on the Laser in heavy winds. For example as I told (behind the words) in my reply above to GeoffS, I still wouldn´t be alive, yet, without the new rigging systems after the last Saturday....get wet, too, you all ;)
Looser Lu
 
Webcams are nice but unnecessary.

Imagine first drifting conditions, with winds of 0-2 knots. Imagine sitting on the deck of your Laser, as close as possible to the mast, to lift the stern out of the water. If upwind sailing, your forward leg is extended towards the leeward rail, and your aft leg is either next to it or extended over the daggerboard into the cockpit. Your behind is right over the centerline of the deck between the daggerboard well and the mast step, your back is turned slightly towards the mast, and you heel the boat to leeward to give the sail a "full" shape.

What do you do to slacken your (old style) outhaul? You need to uncleat it first. To do that, you need to reach aft along the boom (which is right in your face) and yank up the outhaul line to take it out of the mid-boom clam cleat. You do it. The whole boat shakes. Any wind attached to your sail separates. Any lift created by the sail is destroyed. Any lift created by the daggerboard is destroyed.

Yes, you did slacken the outhaul, but at what cost?

Next, forget about upwind sailing and consider the reaches and runs where lifting the daggerboard partly or totally up is important to minimize drag and friction. You can no longer sit on the centerline with both legs to leeward. You need to sit more to windward and either take the daggerboard between your legs, or have both legs in the cockpit and lean your upper body towards the daggerboard. You are now further away from the boom clamcleat, and you can not reach as far aft along the boom as you could when upwind sailing.

Therefore, you now need to yank up on the outhaul line even harder to release it from the clamcleat. Result: More turbulence, more separation, less lift...

This is how we used to manage the outhaul in drifting conditions. Now, with the new deck-led control systems, controlling the outhaul in drifting conditions has NO impact on boat heel, boat trim, and air and water flow over the foils!



Imagine next light air conditions, which ,for me, is 3 - 7 knots. You are now sitting at the forward edge of the cockpit (right on the mainsheet camcleats), with bent knees and both feet in the cockpit and under the hiking strap. You are no longer heeling the boat to leeward. Your torso is straight up, or you are occasionally leaning back to hike the boat flat.

Consider upwind sailing in these consitions. Your mainsheet is pulled in so that there is 4" to 12" (10 to 25 cm) between the boom-end block and the traveler blocks. The boom is almost all the way in. At the low end of this wind range, you notice that the wind is not strong enough to stay attached to your sail, luff to leech, unless you tighten the outhaul a bit to reduce the chord depth at the lower portion of your sail. But the moment the wind picks up a bit towards the upper end of this wind range, you notice that there is better attachment, and you CAN get more power by slackening the outhaul a bit. This is THE wind range where continuous outhaul adjustments make the most difference.

What do you do to slacken your (old style) outhaul now while sailing upwind -- as the wind picks up a bit, exactly when you need to start hiking a bit to hold her flatter?What do you do? You reach IN to grab the outhaul line and yank it off the clamcleat. You reach in, and you heel the boat more! Exactly when you need to hike and keep her flat instead!!!

That's no good.

Finally, consider reaching or running in light air. Your daggerboard is up, and you are seated by the daggerboard, your feet in the cockpit. Your boom is all the way out. You can reach only the first foot or so of the boom -- maybe all the way to the vang strap area if you are a Belgian :) (Belgian women have considerably longer arms.)

Can you release the outhaul from your seated position? No! Most of us can't. Not without pushing your daggerboard down. Not without pulling the mainsheet in a bit to get the boom a bit closer. Not without leaning in to grab the outhaul line further aft. Not without heeling the boat to leeward. Not without shaking the wind out of your sail.

Suppose you did all of this and released the outhaul. But how frequently can you keep on doing this? Eyebrows are raised the first time you do it. The second time you reach in to slacken the outhaul (and heel the boat over and then pull her up on her feet again), the raised eyebrows are replaced with yells. The third time you do it, you are PROTESTED!!!

You just can't reach in and heel the boat to leeward (regardless of whether you actually adjust... or pretend to adjust... your outhaul) and then reach back out to fan the sail and "create your own wind". That's illegal kinetics! That's not sailing! So, you can't adjust your old-style outhaul frequenly when reaching or running in light air -- exactly when you should do it frequently.

That's why I said ""You just can't release the old outhaul on reaches and runs, and trimming it is always a problem" before.

Let me say what I had said couple of years ago:
The new systems have effectively put the old-style rigging out of commisssion! It has rendered it obsolete.

Ceteris paribus (all other factors remaining identical), the new system will win races over the old system. Strong winds or light winds!

Shevy
 
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