Olympic status

Rob B

Well-Known Member
#61
It's good to emphasise on the class' road to success. But it's not the way towards the Olympics, it is the road after the Olympics. Besides: really big athletes will - given the chance- try to be successful on the Olympics.

Let's turn it around: name me one boat that stayed successful after it's Olympic career! Europe? Elliot? And all the other boats that are named on the street map of Kiel/Schilksee... None of those boats has survived as a big and thriving class.
Star seems to be doing ok.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Thread starter #62
The Laser does not need the Olympics to be a successful international class.
Well, it depends wholly on how you define "success". Your argument is that a post-Olympic Laser class will be again the same as it was before 1992. Not going to happen... it's a different world now. Dinghy sailing isn't growing anymore, fewer people in their 20s or 30s race just for fun, the Laser isn't something new, exciting and unique, and there will be no Olympic class that the Laser would naturally feed into. The youth would go directly to the RS Aero, and the Laser would become increasingly a masters-only class with no more builders than today, and many sailing nations abandoning it altogether. I wouldn't call that "successful".

name me one boat that stayed successful after it's Olympic career! Europe? Elliot? And all the other boats that are named on the street map of Kiel/Schilksee... None of those boats has survived as a big and thriving class.
As I said in some other context recently, practically all former Olympic classes are living a more or less healthy "afterlife", typically in their historically strong geographical areas. (I can elaborate if someone wants.) They just tend to become more old guys' classes, with few new boats built. I don't want the Laser to go that way.

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thieuster

Active Member
#63
^^^ this ^^^ What Lali says.

About the Star... Well, only for a very small bunch of people! Price of the boat/parts, hauling the boat, crew weight... I love the Star and I'm more or less biased, to say the least. But for this boat it's also exactly what Lali says. There's a sort of Primus inter pares competition with big names as crew members. That's even a smaller bunch of sailors making a small detour to the Star

Menno
 

torrid

Just sailing
#64
Well, it depends wholly on how you define "success". Your argument is that a post-Olympic Laser class will be again the same as it was before 1992. Not going to happen... it's a different world now. Dinghy sailing isn't growing anymore, fewer people in their 20s or 30s race just for fun, the Laser isn't something new, exciting and unique, and there will be no Olympic class that the Laser would naturally feed into. The youth would go directly to the RS Aero, and the Laser would become increasingly a masters-only class with no more builders than today, and many sailing nations abandoning it altogether. I wouldn't call that "successful".
Never been a big fan of the Laser being an Olympic class, but I have to say this sentiment makes sense to me IF they replace the Laser with the RS Aero or something similar. As long as it is a class that a teenager could conceivably sail and is readily available, I could see youth being more drawn to that class over time.
 
#65
It's good to emphasise on the class' road to success like you do. And you're right when it comes to the Laser's history. But it's not the way towards the Olympics, it is the road after the Olympics that counts. Besides: really big athletes will - given the chance- try to be successful on the Olympics.

Let's turn it around: name me one boat that stayed successful after it's Olympic career! Europe? Elliot? And all the other boats that are named on the street map of Kiel/Schilksee... None of those boats has survived as a big and thriving class.

M
I would start by asking which of the former Olympic classes has a pre Olympic history comparable to the Laser? I’m not 100% certain, but I would guess that none of them were as popular worldwide as the Laser prior to being adopted as an Olympic class. Perhaps losing Olympic status would be the nail in the coffin for the Laser class. This is the tiger by the tail situation that I alluded to earlier. It’s difficult to let go and live to tell about it. But given the unique pre Olympic history of the Laser I’m betting it would be capable of leaving the Olympics and continuing as a popular international class. HOW it could do that is perhaps a topic for another thread. Maybe a thread started after August 1 entitled “Life After the Divorce” :) I do like the Star and the SSL, and It remains to be seen what will happen with the Finn. But again all of these former Olympic classes did not have the unique pre Olympic history of the Laser. If it does turn out to be true that no fleet can leave the Olympics and live to tell about it then it should serve as a cautionary tale against going that route to begin with.
 
#66
Well, it depends wholly on how you define "success". Your argument is that a post-Olympic Laser class will be again the same as it was before 1992. Not going to happen... it's a different world now. Dinghy sailing isn't growing anymore, fewer people in their 20s or 30s race just for fun, the Laser isn't something new, exciting and unique, and there will be no Olympic class that the Laser would naturally feed into. The youth would go directly to the RS Aero, and the Laser would become increasingly a masters-only class with no more builders than today, and many sailing nations abandoning it altogether. I wouldn't call that "successful".
It is important to define terms. I would define success as:
1. Growing membership
2. Active local fleets that support entry level sailors at the grassroots level.
3. Well attended national and world level regattas.
4. Reliable builders and dealers that work with the class to grow the sport.
4. Class organization that works tirelessly to promote all of the above.

I never said that the Laser class would be the same as it was before the Olympics. I recounted the pre Olympic history to illustrate the point that the class’s international popularity and success was achieved before the Olympics, not because of the Olympics. Would the class be the same after. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe it could one day be better in some ways than it was. You seem to be confident that it’s “Not going to happen....”. I’m less certain of the outcome. Anyway, we shall see. Cheers!
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Thread starter #67
I would define success as:
1. Growing membership
2. Active local fleets that support entry level sailors at the grassroots level.
3. Well attended national and world level regattas.
4. Reliable builders and dealers that work with the class to grow the sport.
4. Class organization that works tirelessly to promote all of the above.
Good points all, of course. The first is the hardest, and very few classes are actually growing at this time. That's one of the reasons I listed for "not going to happen". One more is that, for better or worse, sailing today is more Olympic-oriented than 30 years ago. The sport is better organized, and the Laser is at the centre of practically all youth-to-Olympics programs around the world. Removed from that framework, what is left is a big and well-spread, but shrinking and ageing masters class. It's good that Eric Faust mentioned Asia: It's the only part of the world where dinghy sailing is clearly growing, and they haven't invested in the Laser for historical but practical reasons. They'd be the first to leave the class for good.

I strongly prefer the Laser to stay Olympic because the alternative doesn't look very attractive.

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AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
#68
In Australia our regatta fleets have decreased since becoming an Olympic class.

Personally I think just dump sailing from the Olympics.
 

thieuster

Active Member
#72
June 27th.:
ILCA CAUGHT SPREADING FAKE NEWS Meeting with EURILCA members, ILCA's Eric Faust makes a number of claims in this video that are false and are questioned by the well-informed European members. But the biggest false claim is that LaserPerformance has refused to negotiate with ILCA. We remind ILCA that at the November 2018 ILCA World Council LP requested an all-party meeting to discuss our pending contractual issues in Dusseldorf around 9 January 2019. When LP formally requested ILCA to meet, there was NO REPLY even though we sent a number of reminders. We could have settled our issues then and would not be where we are today, with Eric spinning the story his way to get votes to drop the Laser name. The strategy all along has been to get rid of LP and commercialize ILCA with PSA as a partner.
July 1st:

LASERPERFORMANCE – INTERNATIONAL LASER CLASS ASSOCIATION TRADEMARK LICENSE AGREEMENT SIGNED TODAY

Similar to the document signed by LP and the Sunfish Class, this Agreement is in the form that LP has been asking for in the last 3 years. A big THANK YOU to World Sailing for facilitating the process. We have again invited World Sailing and ILCA to inspect the UK-based Laser Manufacturing facilities. Let’s hope the inspection can happen as soon as possible.
/QUOTE]

From ILCA's Facebook on June 30th:

LCA has entered into a trademark license agreement with Velum Limited, the trademark holding company for Laser Performance. The agreement covers use of the LASER trademark for the conduct of sailing events and for use on various items. This agreement replaces the so-called “1998 Agreement” which Velum erroneously claimed was due to expire in August of this year. In spite of these claims, the 1998 Agreement was set to run in perpetuity.
ILCA has agreed to a new contract as a show of good faith negotiations towards the more important goal of achieving a FRAND compliant policy for our class. While a positive symbol of cooperation, it should be noted that this trademark agreement is not in any way related to the ongoing discussions to remain in the Olympics.
After numerous attempts to negotiate a new trademark agreement over several years, signing a new agreement came only after Laser Performance finally agreed to remove the provisions that would have given away control of our class and disrupted our finances – both of which were unacceptable to the ILCA World Council.
With these conditions removed, the proposed agreement essentially mirrored the agreement ILCA has been prepared to sign since 2016, but had been repeatedly either rejected or ignored by Laser Performance.
For clarity, a new trademark agreement has never been a pre-condition for factory inspections or approval of Laser Performance as a class builder. Re-approval is a completely separate issue that must be negotiated and agreed in coordination with all parties to the Laser Construction Manual Agreement.
ILCA is hopeful that with this issue behind, Laser Performance can now focus on the primary task of reaching agreement with the other commercial parties on a process that will achieve World Sailing’s Olympic Equipment Policy.


/QUOTE]
 
#73
June 27th.:


July 1st:
June 27th.:


July 1st:
Ok I saw those on SA earlier. I assumed you were talking about comments posted by sailors in response to those press releases. Honestly, I find it very frustrating trying to sort through all of this “he said, she said” stuff. And I don’t have time to be an investigative journalist and get to the bottom of it all. I assume you reside across the pond. What is your take on all this?
 

thieuster

Active Member
#74
I'm 'across the pond', yes. (NED to be exact). Over the years, LPE has been a fair and easy-to-deal-with supplier. Sailcenter, our Dutch Laser distributor is less flexible, tbh. I have nothing against LPE.

More important is this! Screenshot from the EurILCA FB-page... Basically, EurILCA recommends a NO to ILCA Rules Change...

Schermafbeelding 2019-07-03 om 20.16.17.png


Schermafbeelding 2019-07-03 om 20.16.30.png
 
#75
I'm 'across the pond', yes. (NED to be exact). Over the years, LPE has been a fair and easy-to-deal-with supplier. Sailcenter, our Dutch Laser distributor is less flexible, tbh. I have nothing against LPE.

More important is this! Screenshot from the EurILCA FB-page... Basically, EurILCA recommends a NO to ILCA Rules Change...

View attachment 32719


View attachment 32720
Do think the average laser sailor in Europe will follow EURILCA’s recommendation regarding the vote?
 

thieuster

Active Member
#76
Yes. EurILCA is our 'connection' with Laser sailing. EurILCA is very busy with all sorts of tournaments throughout the year. Youth, Master and all that's in between. EurILCA's representatives are always 'on the scene', talking with the contenders, helping out etc. We (as in: parents) try to help them where possible. So there's a small distance between the sailors and EurILCA. When EurILCA gives us advice, chances are that people will follow their opinion.

Having said that (and I wrote this somewhere else also): looking again at the 'town hall meeting' video in Roses and having talked with a few of the Dutch attendants of the meeting, I'm under the impression that a lot of people there were not impressed by what was said by Faust.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Thread starter #77
Do think the average laser sailor in Europe will follow EURILCA’s recommendation regarding the vote?
Who knows. I'm in Europe, too, and I feel that most Laser sailors don't know/care about the deeper issue(s) at hand, beyond the Olympic status itself. Most of them won't vote, and those who do, I'm afraid can be easily manipulated. For whatever reason, EurILCA is very emotional about the possible name change and is trying to use it to scare us into voting "no". Personally, I really dislike that I am expected to believe in word magic. I don't care what the class is called as long as it stays Olympic and legal spare parts are easy to get from anywhere in the World.

_
 
#78
Who knows. I'm in Europe, too, and I feel that most Laser sailors don't know/care about the deeper issue(s) at hand, beyond the Olympic status itself. Most of them won't vote, and those who do, I'm afraid can be easily manipulated. For whatever reason, EurILCA is very emotional about the possible name change and is trying to use it to scare us into voting "no". Personally, I really dislike that I am expected to believe in word magic. I don't care what the class is called as long as it stays Olympic and legal spare parts are easy to get from anywhere in the World.

_
From my perspective, after seeing the “Roses” video, is that the EURILCA leadership (certainly the French leader in the video) is fanning the flames of this conflict in a very emotional way. They seem to be very entrenched and aggressive in their opposition to anything that challenges the LP position. And they have been very quick to question the personal motives of the NA leadership. I have not seen that type of rhetoric from the NA side.
 
#79
As far as I can tell to vote you only need an email address, name and post code. There does not appear to be any email verification back to the person entering the data. If this were the case if I had a list of my fleet members I can see which ones are members from the transom stickers and I could vote for them all. If this were the case the system is open to abuse.

Am I wrong?
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
#80
Presumably all ‘votes’/entries will be checked against the ILCA membership database.
Or, in other words, ‘votes’ by non members won’t be counted.
 
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