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Deimos

Member
I wonder if somebody can assist me with a couple of questions:
I have been sailing (mainly larger boats) for many years but am only just starting on a Laser. I'm currently hiring a sailing school Laser and plan to buy one this winter (if practice and learning go well).


Qu 1 (the "eternal question"). At 150/155 lbs 5' 10", am I better to think about getting a Standard or Radial. At the moment even a Radial is proving challenging but I recognise I have a lot to learn technique wise. I prefer the idea of a Standard but if it would be too much for my weight it might make more sense to go for a Radial (money means I would prefer not to buy both, though clearly a bad decision can be rectified without swapping the entire boat). I appreciate that technique is important and at the moment my technique is pretty poor, but with practice it will hopefully improve. However, if a Standard is going to be just too much is reasonable (common) winds then it may be an unwise choice. From looking through other threads on the subject I have the impression that, with practice and technique I could manage a standard ? Any thoughts.


To make my "learning harder", the boats have old sails, kicker rigged wrong way round (to my mind) with free end at foot of mast, out haul tied down in position. Does not bother me too much as I have to learn technique and poor'ish set-up/gear only makes the learning process more "robust" (plus I'm not one to gripe about the gear - I'd rather get on with what I've got available).


Qu 2. (On a Radial, inland waters and variable winds) I am having problems keeping the boat upright in gusts at the top end F3 on a beat. In a gust I hike, boat heals, I easy the main to avoid capsizing and boat stops. Am I just being too "coarse" and sudden on easing the main and is it just a case of persist and practice. Whilst the sails have tell tails, there is no wind indicator/burgee so I wonder if I'm sailing too free off the wind with the main in too tight. Maybe related is that when a gust hits the boat seems to have a very strong desire to head up, then using the required decent amount of rudder well and truly puts the breaks on - almost a broach.


Any suggestions very much appreciated. I'm confident I will get there. At the moment I need to get reliable control in a decent wind/weather range before I start going to regattas (I need to be safe and able to avoid other boats, not fall over in front of anybody, etc.).


Regards
Ian
 
If you consistently sail in winds above 10 knots, I think that in a Standard you will always be struggling. I weigh 160 and usually sail Standard. I've been sailing my Laser for just over 2 years with very little sailing before that. I struggle in higher winds, but am getting better. At first I was taught to Ease, Hike, Trim, but it turns out the better (faster) sailors are feathering, because you don't lose boat speed. Head up in the gust to keep control, then fall off. When you head up you can also lean forward and adjust the sail controls, such as put on more cunningham, if you've missed doing so before the gust. I'm sure as a big boat sailor you already know this technique. The best sailors head up before the gust hits, but that takes a bit of skill to get the right angle. If you are wrong, you are swimming.
 
Deimos said:
Maybe related is that when a gust hits the boat seems to have a very strong desire to head up, then using the required decent amount of rudder well and truly puts the breaks on - almost a broach.
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This is apparently a feature. I am also a beginner (about forty hours on the water), but I don't think that the solution to this problem is to apply more rudder. I know that under a gust, it feels like the boat wants to turn into the wind and it feels like applying more rudder is the correct choice.

However, I'm pretty sure that the actual problem is that the boat is heeling. In a Laser, any heeling at all makes the boat want to turn into the wind and the more heeling you have, the worse this problem gets. Instead of applying rudder, try flattening out the boat. The flatter you keep the boat, the better it sails and the less it wants to turn into the wind.

I didn't think the "keep the boat flat" advice was very important but people kept saying it so finally I went out in gentle, predictable wind (about 6 mph, steady) and intentionally LET the boat heel so that I could feel it trying to turn into the wind. And then I scooted further out to bring the boat back to level and felt it get neutral on the helm again. I spent about four hours working on that until it sunk in, so yeah, slow learner over here. It wasn't a very exciting day on the water, but understanding the heeling/heading up relationship really made a difference for me in getting the boat to behave.

I still find gusts problematic -- I went out in gusty conditions the other day and got my butt handed to me. *sigh* To survive gusts, I do what Merrily suggested -- feathering works better for me than ease/hike/trim because the gusts are so dratted short. By the time I ease and hike, the gust is gone and the boat flips over on me in the used-to-be-windward direction. In more steady wind, though, ease/hike/trim works pretty well.
 
Deimos said:
Qu 2. (On a Radial, inland waters and variable winds) I am having problems keeping the boat upright in gusts at the top end F3 on a beat. In a gust I hike, boat heals, I easy the main to avoid capsizing and boat stops. Am I just being too "coarse" and sudden on easing the main and is it just a case of persist and practice. Whilst the sails have tell tails, there is no wind indicator/burgee so I wonder if I'm sailing too free off the wind with the main in too tight. Maybe related is that when a gust hits the boat seems to have a very strong desire to head up, then using the required decent amount of rudder well and truly puts the breaks on - almost a broach.


Any suggestions very much appreciated. I'm confident I will get there. At the moment I need to get reliable control in a decent wind/weather range before I start going to regattas (I need to be safe and able to avoid other boats, not fall over in front of anybody, etc.).


Regards
Ian
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in gusts feather the boat towards the luff, letting the sail out usually helps to fill it and aid in a capsize or, if you get a knock, the boat is more likely to roll back over to windward. all boats will have the desire to head up, the worst thing you can do is use too much rudder because it creates_____ (yes i had a mind blank then) and will definitely slow you down. with regards to your pointing, a vane isnt required, a sailor who can actually sail can read the water to determine how high they should be pointing and so shouldnt, in theory, require an indicator of any sort

whatever you do make sure your boom doesnt hit the water, its sadi that it is the kiss of death (aka theres no returning, you will capsize) and in my experience this is incredibly true, though there are ways to get out of that
 
HIKE!!! if you do this you should be fine. The ideal weight for a radial according to paige railey is 155lbs so you should be good in a radial. i dont suggest moving up to a full rig. and one thing you will eventually learn to do is anticipate the gust and see it coming by the pattern the wind makes on the water and you will be able to let the sail out a bit and hike harder even before it hits you. this i find helps alot.
 
Hi all,

I also have a question as a new starter.

When i jibe with the laser, it often happens that my mainsheet gets stuck in the corner of the hull on the back. As the mainsheet is obstructed by the corner, the boom cannot reach the desired position, therefore the boat overly tilts until i lean backwards, solve the problem and let the mainsheet go.

How do You, guys solve this problem?
 
Andreas said:
When i jibe with the laser, it often happens that my mainsheet gets stuck in the corner of the hull on the back.
How do You, guys solve this problem?
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Grab the mainsheet at the boom and pull it as far as you can with a flicking motion as you are gybing. I haven't perfected this but it works sometimes.
 
As the boom starts to cross the boat pump the main sheet. It takes a while to grasp but someone helped me with it an i havent had trouble since. Just persist.
 
Thank U all, for the helpful advices!

Let me ask two more things as well.

1. Where do You put the non-used mainsheet in the cockpit? Is there any "golden rule" about what to do with it? As far as I experienced, it can easily enmesh on the hikinkg strap. Don't You feel that it takes too much time to bother with the mainsheet lying on the bottom of the cockpit?

2. Which direction do You board the boat from? For me, it seems rather difficult to board from the front.

3. The same is true when leaving the boat, but there is one additional problem. If I want to stop the boat before it hits the mole I have to steer its bow to the wind when I still have a bit of velocity, then go to the bow and grab the mole with my hand before the bow hits it. The problem is how can i make sure that the tiller won't change direction when i am sitting on the bow of the boat and cannot hold it with hands?

In lighter winds I often see guys in the dock sitting on the bow of the laser and paddling out with hands from the harbour. How can they make sure the rudder won't change its position if a sudden gust comes or whatever?

4. On my boat - and I think this is the same in the case of other lasers as well - the cunnigham line is locked on the deck but it comes down on the mast. Haven't U experienced that if the cunningham line is tightly fixed then it makes very difficult for the mast to turn to the 90 degree position in backwind?
 
Andreas said:
Thank U all, for the helpful advices!

Let me ask two more things as well.

1. Where do You put the non-used mainsheet in the cockpit? Is there any "golden rule" about what to do with it? As far as I experienced, it can easily enmesh on the hikinkg strap. Don't You feel that it takes too much time to bother with the mainsheet lying on the bottom of the cockpit?

2. Which direction do You board the boat from? For me, it seems rather difficult to board from the front.

3. The same is true when leaving the boat, but there is one additional problem. If I want to stop the boat before it hits the mole I have to steer its bow to the wind when I still have a bit of velocity, then go to the bow and grab the mole with my hand before the bow hits it. The problem is how can i make sure that the tiller won't change direction when i am sitting on the bow of the boat and cannot hold it with hands?

In lighter winds I often see guys in the dock sitting on the bow of the laser and paddling out with hands from the harbour. How can they make sure the rudder won't change its position if a sudden gust comes or whatever?

4. On my boat - and I think this is the same in the case of other lasers as well - the cunnigham line is locked on the deck but it comes down on the mast. Haven't U experienced that if the cunningham line is tightly fixed then it makes very difficult for the mast to turn to the 90 degree position in backwind?
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Reply:

1. the non used mainsheet should go at the front of the cockpit, there isnt really a golden rule other than "DONT GET YOUR FEET TANGLED"

2. you should board and leave the boat from the windward side of the cockpit, whatever you do, unless the winds increibly light or you have total control don't board from the bow

3. you make sure the rudder doesnt move when paddling by lifting it so no turbulence can be created and it can not influence your course.

4. nope
 
Andreas said:
1. Where do You put the non-used mainsheet in the cockpit? Is there any "golden rule" about what to do with it?
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I have a Rooster mainsheet and it doesn't get tangled, much, when I kick it to the front of the cockpit. You have to check every time you tack that it's not around your feet.

Andreas said:
2. Which direction do You board the boat from? For me, it seems rather difficult to board from the front.
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The youngsters at my club board and get off from the front, but I'm only successful with that 50% of the time. ;) I pull the boat alongside and get in and out from the side.

Andreas said:
3. The same is true when leaving the boat, but there is one additional problem. If I want to stop the boat before it hits the mole I have to steer its bow to the wind when I still have a bit of velocity, then go to the bow and grab the mole with my hand before the bow hits it. The problem is how can i make sure that the tiller won't change direction when i am sitting on the bow of the boat and cannot hold it with hands?
Click to expand...

Our Laser dock sticks out so that you can approach it from nearly any direction but the west, and we rarely have east wind. That means I'm able to go head to wind to slow down, then pull up so that I'm getting out the side. I never let go of the tiller. So if you can, find a spot on your dock that is head to wind.

Andreas said:
In lighter winds I often see guys in the dock sitting on the bow of the laser and paddling out with hands from the harbour. How can they make sure the rudder won't change its position if a sudden gust comes or whatever?
Click to expand...

You usually paddle out when there is no wind, so the sudden gust theory is excessive worrying.

Andreas said:
4. On my boat - and I think this is the same in the case of other lasers as well - the cunnigham line is locked on the deck but it comes down on the mast. Haven't U experienced that if the cunningham line is tightly fixed then it makes very difficult for the mast to turn to the 90 degree position in backwind?
Click to expand...

I don't have to backwind the sail very often, so I haven't experienced this. I have a lot of cunningham on going upwind in a breeze, but going downwind and on a reach when the sail would be out, you rarely would have as much on.
 
Thank You All for the helpful answers, especially Merrily who might have had half a day less for sailing in the last days because of my stupid questions. ;)

BTW, today there was quite a strong wind by my lake (50 kph/27 knots) and there were only windsurfers with the exception of one laser sailor. He sailed a standard and weighed 10 kg-s more than me who is around the Laser standard's minimal weight.
I felt a great temptation to try sailing in that weather because I saw him coming like a high a speed train, but finally I decided not to sail in 27 knots until I become a bit more experienced.

Tonight, however, a new idea came into my mind.

What if I roll the standard sail on the mast until it reaches the end of the battens? Do I get something like a Radial or a 4.7?

Tomorrow we'll have the same heavy wind and I'd really like to try sailing in this weather with the reduced sail.

What do You guys think of that? Has any of You tried it or seen anyone trying it so far?
 
Andreas said:
What if I roll the standard sail on the mast until it reaches the end of the battens? Do I get something like a Radial or a 4.7?

Tomorrow we'll have the same heavy wind and I'd really like to try sailing in this weather with the reduced sail.

What do You guys think of that? Has any of You tried it or seen anyone trying it so far?
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Take out the top batten and keep rolling 3 times around the mast. This is the old pre-Radial sail reefing method. You need a longer outhaul line to do this. I've never tried it, but I guess it works.
 
Andreas said:
What if I roll the standard sail on the mast until it reaches the end of the battens? Do I get something like a Radial or a 4.7?

Tomorrow we'll have the same heavy wind and I'd really like to try sailing in this weather with the reduced sail.

What do You guys think of that? Has any of You tried it or seen anyone trying it so far?
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now you are changing the center of effort in the sail. i suppose it could work... sort of, but the boat will handle differently & may have lee helm.... worth a try though i guess...
 
Merrily said:
Take out the top batten and keep rolling 3 times around the mast. This is the old pre-Radial sail reefing method. You need a longer outhaul line to do this. I've never tried it, but I guess it works.
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Thx, I'll definitely try it! Maybe setting the cunningham will be a bit problematic when the sail is rolled, but I don't have a radial or 4.7 sail for heavy winds (yet).
I hope I'll be able to decrease the sail area to 5-5,5 sqm-s.
 
Andreas said:
Thx, I'll definitely try it! Maybe setting the cunningham will be a bit problematic when the sail is rolled, but I don't have a radial or 4.7 sail for heavy winds (yet).
I hope I'll be able to decrease the sail area to 5-5,5 sqm-s.
Click to expand...

Let us know how it goes. Good luck!
 
Hi All,

Yesterday I tried reefing. The sail I used was not an original laser one but a laser std-clone produced by some noname firm. (That’s what you don’t feel sorry for, whatever happens.)

I did the reefing following Merrily’s advice and rolling the mast three times around the sail after having removed the top batten. I pulled the outhaul, the cunningham and the vang as much as possible.

The wind by my lake is rather strong in these days (appr. 20 knots and stronger gusts) but by the time I was done with the rigging and put the boat in the water it had become lighter with some gusts of 20 knots.)

Still I didn’t mind lighter wind because the thing I really wanted was testing how the laser standard works when reefed. My experience, in short, was the same as what has already been discussed in the thread about reefing.

  • Once You have set the cunningham during rigging there is no control above it further on.
  • You can’t sail against wind in such a degree as otherwise.
For me it was a bit confusing how to read from the front edge of the sail when adjusting the main. Logically, a reefed sail’s front edge is not as sensitive as that of the non-reefed one therefore it’s a bit unusual to read from that.

Nothing special otherwise. I didn’t experience that the sail got any worse as a result of reefing.

I also made some pictures to show how it looks like.
 
Here is the picture.

Do You think it's bigger than a 4.7? Next time i ll check it out with my ruler.
 

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Cool. I'd heard that this was useful. I'll try it sometime when the wind picks up this fall, just for grins. :D
 
Today I tried reefing again with only two rolls around the mast.

It was something like the same as yesterday but I am not sure if it would resist slipping in a very heavy wind.

On the other hand, it attracts chicks definitely better than the three-times-rolled version. :D Just try it!
 
Today I was watching some pictures of laser racers and I saw plenty of them holdind the extension behind their back.

When should we hold the extension behind the back? Just because I never do it so I might be wrong...
 
Thanks for the answers!

Let me ask an other question, I hope i am not too annoying.

My question is what I should look at when I buy a used sail? I don't really know how we can measure wheather they are in good shape or not.
I will attach a picture as an example. Could someone please tell me, what this picture says about the condition of the sail? (Take it into consideration that the top batten is missing.)

Thanks!

Andreas
 
Just don't fall for the comon beliefe that you should turn the boat up against the wind when it overpowers you, that will just stop the boat. In flat water you can get away with it without loosing to much, but if it's alot of waves you will stop.
The normal (or good at least) way to sail on beats (just considering wind, not waves and other factors) is to head up abit when you see a gust (this is NOT to get less power in the rigg but to get to the gusts faster) and then just before you hit it you bear away so you'll get the speed from the increased wind directly. If the boat overpowers you, just work with the main, release it a bit when it overpowers you, and then pull it in when in lulls so the boat dosn't roll over you.
This is also most comfortable way of sailing as you don't have to move in and out in the boat all that much, just hike hard and work the main so the boat stays flat.
 
Hi everyone

I am new at sailing and dont know where ı can find cheap laser spares and accessories. Can anybody tell me a web adress.
 
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