Leeward Mark Right of Way Question

[Meryl]

I have a question I'm hoping someone can help me with. (I just ordered a fresh copy of the Rules of Racing but won't receive it for a few days -- I'd love an answer sooner than that.) BTW I'm not going to mention which boat I was and I'm going to try to avoid slanting the description (to the best of my ability).

Downwind leg approaching the windward mark, the lead boat (BOAT1 - a radial) is directly in front of the following boat (BOAT2 - a full rig) and attempting to block BOAT2 from passing by slightly altering course. Thus, as BOAT1 comes within two boat lengths of the windward mark, BOAT2 is directly behind BOAT1 and there is no overlap at all. Both boats are on starboard tacks.

As BOAT1's bow just passes the mark and BOAT1 begins to gybe, BOAT2 dives for the mark to squeeze between BOAT1 and the mark, but cannot fit and hits both BOAT1 and the mark. While hitting both (but not before), BOAT2 shouts "let me in, make room, make room."

BOAT1 claims that it did not see BOAT2 dive in between it and the mark and therefore could not avoid collision and secondly did not think it had to make room as it had right of way.

BOAT2 claims that BOAT2 had to make room for it.

BOAT1 called a foul but BOAT2 refused to do a penalty turn (BOAT2 did not call a foul on BOAT1).

When this issue was brought up to Race Committee after the race, the focus quickly went off in a tangent and the ultimate question was not addressed.

Any and all comments would be greatly appreciated!

 

[torrid]

So when Boat 1 crossed the two-boat-length circle, Boat 2 was clear astern and had no overlap? Boat 1 has right-of-way. End of story.

Doesn't matter if Boat 2 develops an overlap at a later time (which probably happened when Boat 1 gybed). Right of way is determined when the first boat crosses the two-boat-length circle.

People often stick their nose in after the fact and demand room, but they are in the wrong. If you are the lead boat in a situation like that, you need to look over your shoulder and tell boat boat behind you "no room". If he tries to dart in their, take him up and close the door.

Now there are other issues about "avoiding collisions" and such, but at the core of this incident Boat 2 is at fault.

 

[Merrily]

i agree with Torrid, but you have no recourse unless you submit a formal protest. If you don't call a protest, you are ultimately saying that you can live with whatever happened out there.

Was BOAT 1 damaged?

 

[I break things]

Everyone who posted before me is right and thats an aggressive move by BOAT2 but you can usually pull it off if the first person doesnt know how to round a mark.

 

[torrid]

Boat 1 is technically right, but once he lets Boat 2 stick his nose in it's pretty much a lost cause. Any witnesses at a protest will only remember seeing he had an overlap at the mark, not what happened at the two-boat-length circle.

You have to see this things happening at 5-6 boat lengths out and be prepared to holler at the guy at the two-boat-length circle. If you yell loud enough, witnesses WILL remember that.

Easy to do with one or two boats, very difficult when ten boats arrive at the mark at the same time.

 

[oatsandbeans]

I agre with pretty well all that has been said so far on this - that boat 1 has the right of way, but it is not quite that simple.

The rules say that if boat 2 hails boat 1 for water to round (asserting that he had an overlap at 2 boat lengths), boat 1 has to give boat 2 room to round then protest boat 2, and the onus is then on boat 2 to prove that it did have an overlap at the two boat length.

This obviuosly often does not happen in the real world. Who is going to let in a barger and then go through all the trouble of a protest hearing?

My advice is to tell the potential barger that he does not have an overlap at 2 boat length and to clear off, if this is done vigourously they normally get the message and do not try it on. ( Even a bit of a warning at 4 boat lenghts is useful preparation).

 

[stick]

Boat 2 was wrong. even worse, Boat 2 refused to spin when a foul was called. if you had filed the protest, with a witness, it would have been a done deal, right. there are a few times when it's a no-brainer, port-starboard, windward-leeward, overlap at 2 boatlengths. either you have it or you don't. the only shady area in the argument/protest is Boat 1 establishing and making Boat 2 aware ( Shouting NO Overlap !) of situation.

 

[sorosz]

You can find the full text of the Racing Rules online at: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS2005-2008-[502].pdf Refer to Rule 18 starting on page 11.

It's sometimes helpful to refer to the Casebook since a situation similar to yours may have ocurred in the past and gone to protest/appeal: http://sailing.org/tools/documents/Casebook updated 01112007-[4098].pdf?PHPSESSID=425f515c62234876deb2563fa17ce9a3
(cut & paste the URL if the long links don't work. . .)

A couple cases that may be relevant (see the full text for details):

CASE 63
At a mark, when room is made available to a boat that has no right to it,​

she may, at her own risk, take advantage of the room.
(which addresses the almost exact opposite of your case: here the guy sneaks in and gets away with it but it clearly establishes that "When a boat voluntarily or unintentionally makes room available to another that has no rights to such room, the other boat may take advantage, at her own risk, of the room. " In your case, it sees like Boat 2 tried to take advantage of room that didn't even exist at her own risk and should have done penalty turns or been DSQ in a protest.)

CASE 2
Rule 18.2(c) does not apply between a boat clear ahead and a boat clear
astern if the boat clear astern reaches the two-length zone before the boat
clear ahead. Rule 18.2(b) does not apply between two boats that were not
overlapped before the first of them to reach the two-length zone does so.
Rule 18.2(a) applies only while boats are overlapped. When rules 18.2(a),
18.2(b) and 18.2(c) do not apply, right of way is determined by the​

relevant rule in Section A of Part 2.
(probably not really relevant in this case. . .)

CASE 26
When a right-of-way boat could have tried to avoid a collision that​

resulted in damage, but did not, she must be penalized under rule 14.
(might apply if Boat 2 could argue that Boat 1 "slammed the door" on him and hit him. If so, both boats probably committed a foul and should have been penalized)

and see Case 59 for the dread Pinwheel Effect (although that's a bit off topic it shows how doubly hosed you are when you're outside on the pinwheel. . .)

 

[Meryl]

Thanks to everyone for responding! (Because of the holiday it's taken me a while to check back). I really appreciate the input.

I was (was it obvious?) Boat 1 and indeed there was no overlap at the 2-boat-length distance. Overlap occurred just at the mark because (1) full rig was faster than me in my radial and (2) by trying to cover I was directly in front of Boat 2 and he had all the wind.

I shouted "no room" but not "no overlap." I'll shout a lot more next time!

Luckily there was no damage to either boat.

The tough part for me is that as one of two women who frostbite at our club, the race committee folks focused more on the fact that in the ensuing upwind argument between me and Boat 2, Boat 2 made derogatory comments based on my gender and age. So, the race committee focused on getting Boat 2 to apologize for the comment instead of addressing the actual foul and failure to take the penalty on course. Oh well. I do appreciate the all-male RC sticking up for me (but in a way doesn't that just reinforce the "weak and helpless" image?) but I was really more interested in a ruling on the foul than an apology.

Again, thanks for the input!

 

[MasterMike]

...Boat 2 made derogatory comments based on my gender and age. So, the race committee focused on getting Boat 2 to apologize for the comment instead of addressing the actual foul and failure to take the penalty on course. Oh well. I do appreciate the all-male RC sticking up for me (but in a way doesn't that just reinforce the "weak and helpless" image?) but I was really more interested in a ruling on the foul than an apology.

Exactly.
Boat 2's driver is arrogant and manipulative and needs to wise up!

 

[vtgent49]

I'd add the comment that saying the word "Protest" is required, and that all sorts of other yelling doesn't add up to that one required word. Otherwise the offending boat has a clear defense. "No room" at 2 or 1 Bl's is entirely adequate to inform B2 of your intentions to "close the door".

If a flag was required, as they are in larger boats, there just is no excuse at all for failing to fly one. Lasers don't require a flag (<19') but that makes the word more important.

Also, we're assuming you might be a female, and quite a bit younger? (Unless he was yelling "old fart" as they do to me.) There was (is still?) an appeals case that directly applied. In that case, the experienced sailor tried to verbally intimidate the (young) inexperience sailor, and was thus booted for a violation of Rule 2, Fair sailing. And Rule 69 is next, if needed.

Good sailors will be very clear about "no overlap" at 4, 3, and 2 BL's. And good sailors who think they have an overlap will be very clear about it at 4, 3, 2, and 1 BLs. I often tell the outside boat, at 2 BL's to leave "Room for 2 (or 3, or 4+) boats as the case may be.

Al

 

[LaserBen]

one important thing to also bear in mind - on the other side of the argument, is that 2 laser lengths is a lot shorter than a lot of laser sailors think!

In the boat park put 2 lasers bow to stern and take a look, you'll see what I mean.

The typical thing that happens is someone will look back and call "no water" at about 5+ boatlengths, to which I reply "NOT TWO BOATLENGTHS", or if I'm friendly with them "Sailing a farr 40 are we?"

 

[torrid]

Let me get this straight. First he barged in where he didn't have room, then he proceeded in a sexist, age-ist shouting match back up the windward leg? They should of thrown his butt out of the race on that alone. Forget apologies.

 

[Hoffy]

Meryl, good for you for wanting the ruling rather than the apology. Though you were due both. You may have learned an unwritten rule of racing--there is usually one of those guys in every fleet. One way to sail clean and fast is to stay away from them. They're poison. Maybe the guy had a bad night or maybe he's always like that, you'll know after a few more nights of racing.

I agree with VT Gent, the biggest issue here was the fair sailing rule. It is very disappointing to see that one broken.

One mark rounding rule that wasn't discussed yet is 18.2(e). It holds that when there is reasonable doubt as to whether a boat that comes from clear astern claiming to have established the inside overlap, has established it in time, then the boats must presume she has not.

The same is true if the trailing boat clearly had an overlap and there is reasonable doubt that the leading boat broke it in time, the boats must asume the overlap still exists.

An exchange I had at a leeward mark this year went like this: I was clear astern at 5 BL and hailed to the guy in front, "over lap here". He looked and said "No". I tried again at 3 and he said, "No". Because I was coming from clear astern and he wasn't agreeing with me, I had to presume I had no overlap and round behind him under 18.2(e).

Another good thing to take from VT Gent is to see these situations coming and hail early. Trust me, I know, I'm often one of the suckers he's telling to swing wide.

In the scenario I shared, I did that early enough because I knew I'd have to take evasive action at 2 lengths if I didn't get it. Predicting this stuff will come with more racing. Find the sailors in the fleet who'll answer your questions and teach you one thing each time you're on the water. Every fleet has lots of them. They'll help you get faster the fastest. I've just gotten back into lasers and five or so guys in the fleet really helped me get back up to speed.

Jealous that you're still sailing. Our boats are in the rafters.