Mark:I understand. I thought all the controversy was over the maker of the hull (the boat itself). And I realize a lot of the parts in a highly specific one design class would (or should) be regulated like the foils, spars, sails, particular mechanical set-ups on vangs and cunninghams. But just regular "non-performance" parts like pintels, gudgeons, bailiers . . it sounds like proprietary monopolizing to me. Where does it stop? Why not the main sheet, wind vanes, compasses, and every screw on boat? I come from lightnings historically with a couple different makers and most things just need to weigh/measure in at the truly major regattas. That just seems to make more sense to me.
Thanks for helping me understand where everything is now.
Thanks,
Mark
Don't bet on it.Mark:
Save your money and go for the generic bailer; no one is ever going to check or protest you.
E
If you're planning on sailing at a world championship and bringing your own boat, then consider buying the class legal bailer.Don't bet on it.
Well, that is the larger controversy... which will keep going as long as the former major builder keeps pushing illegal "Lasers" into the market. But for many years, something similar has been going on with most other parts of the boat. It's not always easy to know what is legal and what isn't; but I'm trying hardI thought all the controversy was over the maker of the hull (the boat itself).
Well. it stops where the majority of active sailors - represented by the class association - wants it to stop. In practice, this happens in the early years of a class, after which fundamental changes aren't very likely to happen. In 2001, the Laser class rules did undergo a major rewrite, which actually gave us a few more "builder supplied" parts in addition to numerous free blocks and lines.I realize a lot of the parts in a highly specific one design class would (or should) be regulated ... But just regular "non-performance" parts like pintels, gudgeons, bailiers ... Where does it stop? Why not the main sheet, wind vanes, compasses, and every screw on boat?
Fellow Lightning sailor hereI come from lightnings historically with a couple different makers and most things just need to weigh/measure in at the truly major regattas. That just seems to make more sense to me.
If you're planning to race at all, at any level, you buy only legal parts, period.If you're planning on sailing at a world championship and bringing your own boat, then consider buying the class legal bailer.
Come sail at my club in the Laser fleet and I will gladly protest you.If you're planning on sailing at a world championship and bringing your own boat, then consider buying the class legal bailer.
I don't even think there is any markings on the class legal bailer distinguishable. Same for gudgeons.
Then there are a bunch of other fittings (cleat base, double pad eye, bow eye, mast bottom-top plug, collar, gooseneck, battens and probably many other) that are identical to the class legal ones but don't have "Laser" ("ILCA" now?) stamped on it.
Hull, sails, masts, blades should be class approved; other functionally equivalent fittings should be allowed.
E
Just out of curiosity, how would you establish whether a bailer or a gudgeon is class legal or not?Come sail at my club in the Laser fleet and I will gladly protest you.
New sail: 600 €Legal Sail: +600€
Practice sail: 139€
I think this is the attitude that has enabled the fake-part business to exist: the legal-equipment providers aren't seen anymore as being "us" but "them". Of course, LaserPerformance isn't exactly guiltless here.... feeding the greedy monopolist
That is a problem. And a fairly new one at that. For most of the history of the class no one probably thought this would be an issue.Just out of curiosity, how would you establish whether a bailer or a gudgeon is class legal or not?
The old ones are identical, w/o any "Laser" stamped on it.
You're most welcome to sail at my club in any boat, including former LasersWill try to steer clear of your and LaLi's club even though my boat is legal....
Agree totally.I think the discussion on legal or not gudgeons and bailiers is irrelevant. They are cheap in the legal version so even the cheapskates in my club get these, that includes me.
Raises the question, how do you define a "Laser" if it's not by the class rules?... we would NEVER, ever refuse anyone who shows up in a laser to race at our club
New sail: 600 €
Sail used by an Olympic sailor in not more than two regattas and which has plenty of life left for the midfleet guy: 130 €
Much better deal.
I think this is the attitude that has enabled the fake-part business to exist: the legal-equipment providers aren't seen anymore as being "us" but "them". Of course, LaserPerformance isn't exactly guiltless here
It's RRS 66.4, Decisions on Protests Concerning Class Rules:How is a protest committee supposed to handle a protest alleging use of non-compliant part?
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Raises the question, how do you define a "Laser" if it's not by the class rules?
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Lali I think you need to relax. It's more about getting numbers on the water than getting giddy over whether their gear is not quite acceptable or not. Personally all my gear is legal but I don't get upset with anyone who's gear isn't. Maybe they can't afford to pay double for everything after all.It's RRS 66.4, Decisions on Protests Concerning Class Rules:
(a) When the protest committee finds that deviations in excess of tolerances specified in the class rules were caused by damage or normal wear and do not improve the performance of the boat, it shall not penalize her. However, the boat shall not race again until the deviations have been corrected, except when the protest committee decides there is or has been no reasonable opportunity to do so.
(b) When the protest committee is in doubt about the meaning of a class rule, it shall refer its questions, together with the relevant facts, to an authority responsible for interpreting the rule. In making its decision, the committee shall be bound by the reply of the authority.
(c) When a boat is penalized under a class rule and the protest committee decides that the boat also broke the same rule in earlier races in the same event, the penalty may be imposed for all such races. No further protest is necessary.
(d) When a boat penalized under a class rule states in writing that she intends to appeal, she may compete in subsequent races without changes to the boat. However, if she fails to appeal or the appeal is decided against her, she shall be disqualified without a further hearing from all subsequent races in which she competed.
(e) Measurement costs arising from a protest involving a class rule shall be paid by the unsuccessful party unless the protest committee decides otherwise.
In practice, the key rule is (b): I don't think any real-world protest committee would decide a class-rule protest without asking the class association (and its chief measurer) first.
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