Inspection hatch placement

[mange]

Hi,
I've read some previous threads about this but I have some hesitation about cutting a relatively large hole in my deck. Still I want to be able to dry out my -93 hull in my warm garage over the winter and check what is causing some clattering sound when I turn the boat - its not the floatation "bags"
Here is my "plan":
I want to use the larger type of inspection port with a bag to put things in. I think the class rules say something about a max inner hole diameter of 150 mm.
I want to place it on starboard deck aligned with the cunningham cleat with, lets say 200mm distance between cleat/port edge.
With this position I can also reach vital places inside - but its a compromise ofcourse. Also important - I dont want to cut the hole on a place where the deck is weakened - big stress comes from the mast and also from daggerboard.

I've also read some threads about "soft decks" (delaminated). I dont think I suffer from delamination (I will know later...), but someone wrote the deck should be stiff on all places. Still my deck has some flex in the position described above (the same for port side - but the centerline is more stiff). The "unsupported" deck area is larger here - but is it normal?

What do you others think of this placement?

Regards
Magnus

 

[computeroman2]

There are a couple of things i looked at when i put mine in. Your spot should be fine, but be aware you'll be cutting through at least an inch of deck/hull/fiberglass. I put mine in the thin sloped part in front of the cockpit, where there is only a little fiberglass to cut through. Unfortunately, I have also learned that that's the place where i land when i fall going downwind. Thus, probably a bad place to put it, but for your porposes, it should be fine.

a little off topic there.....anyway, as long as you make sure to seal the port when you put it in and to not cut the hole too big, you should be fine.

 

[vtgent49]

I put 5" ports in the spot you mention, for a bag, and to dry the boat out. I don't like the centerboard trunk position, as I slam that spot sliding forward after rounding the WM. I also use the port to "inspect" by reaching in with a digi cam/flash.

Plenty of laser sailors, maybe even a large majority hate ports, and think they let in more water than the can dry out, etc.

If you have a suspect mast tube then I'd put it farther forward, as you might have to reach in and glass it. (I'd suspect the mast block on any 5 digit boat that never had a port) I also don't like centerline ports, because the deck isn't flat there, and some old boats have wood beams down the middle, that is worth preserving.

You are cutting thru glass, foam and glass. Some people attempt to seal the exposed foam with WEST. Not a bad idea, but don't drip it all over. That clear WEST turns brown over time. And save the "hole" for future use as a deck patch.

Lasers all have some flex. When we say "soft" I believe most of us mean the deck flexes 1/8" to 1/4" with two fingers of pressure, implying the floam/glass layer are completely unattached.

If your deck is that soft where you want the port, I'd try fixing it before you cut the hole. Drill your injection holes within the circle, inject, let harden, then cut. Search the soft deck threads for fuller instructions.

This pic is the view inside an '05

Al Russell 182797

 

[mange]

Thanks for the advices, and a good pic. too Al.
I'll go for my planned placement. Now Im more sure that my deck is ok and not delaminated.
I like the idea to put some epoxi resin around the hole edge.
I believe this serves 2 purposes: water sealing but also extra bonding of the deck layers around the hole to prevent delaminating.
If the weight wasnt a big issue (but it is...) then a good way is to remove some foam along the edge and replace with epoxi, first pure/liquid resin so it adsorbs, then finishing with a "filler" (expoxi mixed with silica).
This is correct way on bigger boats/ships but I think I'll just "prime" the hole edge with pure epoxi and spare the hull from extra add-on weight.

An off topic question - regarding drying the hull:

Is it good to wash the inside before drying?
By washing I mean spraying freshwater with the garden hose.

The reason is to remove all salt which binds the water. I bougt this 93-Laser this year. It has been sailed in salt water and even thou its not taking water in, it is very moisture inside. Suppose most of it are from condensation but if there has been any salt water inside, this will bind the water and thus very hard to dry out.
I had an Snipe which was submerged once. I tried to dry it but it was only after washing with fresh water I managed to get it completly dry.
This really did some kilos on my Snipe !

 

[computeroman2]

I would definitely go for that. I've washed out the inside of my boat a couple of times now (both incidents involved my younger brother thinking it'd be funny to undo my plug and see what happens when i try to sail). It helps alot, and because the water isn't sitting in there, just passing over, it doesn't get absorbed by the fiberglass.

 

[mange]

Cut out is done now and I took some photos with my digicam.
I noticed one thing - the mast tube probably needs reinforcement at the bottom.
By using a torch I could see some spots on starboard/port sides where the GRP is quite thin. Seems the mast foot has grinded off from inside.
Nothing is broken yet but I figure its better to do it before.
Except for a washing inside to get rid of the "organic" dirt in the bottom, the rest seems ok.

/Magnus

 

[vtgent49]

Hi mange.

That pic is informative. Pretty typical "growth" of whatever the brown stuff is. It may have to be soaked to loosen it up, especially where you can't reach.

Is that center beam ok? The top edge looks exposed. it's plywood, on edge, glass covered.

Also, that foam filler around the step looks limp, like the mix wasn't quite right that day? I've never seen that before. The same filler (presumably) from the same pot, connects the hull/deck joint, cockpit support, etc. It's really important, and it's usually rock hard. I'll swap pics of those areas by email, so you can blow them up bigger than the forum allows. Others can see the pic of my '05 previously shown. That stuff is hard, and doesn't go limp over time.

The step tube is easy to fill a bit, glue/epoxy in a SS disk. Lots of info on that if you search.

The step block looks ok. I'll add a pic of a bad one. The plywood block either rots away, or expands and cracks the glass around it. A little glass/WEST on it wouldn't bother me though, if you can reach it.

Having the Port allows you to know what's going in inside, not just guessing like the previous owner. It's just a matter of time that causes 4 to 5 digit boats to fail, while the 6 digit boats haven't.

Two pics added, first is a '73 that cracked it's glass, 2nd is a reasonably nice
'74. The '73 required immediate attention to prevent a failure.

Al Russell 182797

 

[mange]

Hi Al,
Thanks for pointing out some things.

The center beam is exposed = no fibre glass on top edge. But its covered with polyester so I think it has some protection against water absorbtion.
In fact, I was a little bit surprised over the relativly weak "bonding" of the center beam to the hull. Also the front edge is exposed - I miss some fibre glass there even more.

And now the foam filler. With your comments, it really puzzels me:
Its not limp, its quite hard but not "rock hard" and its "sticky" on the surface. Its not the same polyester filler that is used around deck/hull joints - this one is really rock-hard and grey. The mast step filler is more like a PU-glue (polyurethane) which is brown/yellow - maybe it is PU-glue?.
I bought my boat from Denmark and its probably made in England

I think the step block is ok - but I can see where it is from the outside of the hull - its like a tiny expansion like a relief of the step, not much really but the hull gelcoat 100% smooth here. Not optimal for 100% racing, but this cant affect that much. But more important - is it indication of problem or is this normal?

I dont follow you quite regarding the reinforcement of the mast tube ("..glue/epoxy in a SS disk..").
I was thinking of wrapping a few layers of fibre glass + epoxi around the mast step inside the hull. I think I'll remove the excess of my "sticky filler" so that the added layers will bond the tube and step more effectivly.
At the same time I'll put extra layer on the centre beam front end and "paint" the rest with epoxi (since its water tight).

The pic's you added are informative - the -74 looks really nice, about the same as mine -93. You can e-mail me more pic's to " mere @ ppd . se "
(remove the spaces)

/Magnus

 

[mihor]

> And now the foam filler. With your comments, it really puzzels me:

I think it is that usually the excess filler around the base looks more like a “doughnut” around the step.

>I dont follow you quite regarding the reinforcement of the mast tube
>("..glue/epoxy in a SS disk..").

This is about fixing a Steel plate to the bottom of the tube to prevent wear -- not about reinforcing the step.

>I think I'll remove the excess of my "sticky filler" so that the added layers
>will bond the tube and step more effectivly.

Yes, this is the way it should be reinforced. Apply small patches of fiberglass and epoxy around the step and it should be soon stronger than new.

And a couple of pictures of my “project” boats mast step about to fall apart. I think I fixed it just in time before major failure. The bottom of the mast tube was totally loose from the hull when I cut the inspection hole to see what is going on in there.

-mikko

 

[vtgent49]

Good Job Mikko, and thanks for the pics.

A couple of thoughts.

Mikko was able to chip out the old filler and start over. Sometimes this is possible, if not chip it down to get it out of the way.

If you maststep doesn't hold water, be careful not to pour WEST into the donut. If it leaks into the tube, you might end up overfilling the tube.

Part of the patch should be used to bond the wood donut to the hull. This means the hull and block have to be clean. Wire brush on a drill, or a grinder, then vacumn out debris.

Use very thin and loose cloth, or it won't bend to conform to the shapes. If it is too stiff, it tends not to bend.

This is all easier said than done, because you'll be reacing in one handed and blind, with your face mushed to the deck, lol.

Also, the imprint of the step on the outside of the hull is present on all boats, some better than others. My new boat is the best I've seen. It's not legal to sand or fill to fair this or other "mold imperfections", per class rules.

All my pics and comments were about NA boats. Maybe some Brit has a step pic from this era?

Al Russell 182797

 

[LooserLu]

... Maybe some Brit has a step pic from this era?

Here is one from my Laser (a PSE made from the UK).

http://www.laserforum.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=382&stc=1&d=1131294791

At the blue circle you not see water, but epoxy-resin that propped down during the fixing (the holes) of the new XD-Basic-plate for the Cunningham and Outhaul. I did that in spring 2004 and at that time the inspection ports weren't cut out. There was no chance for me to make the resin away at that time.
My question is, what sort is the "Bondy". I know that it is probably the same stuff, that is used for "marry" the Deck to the Hull and it needs several hours of drying. I haven't seen anywhere where I can order that... (For having it, if needed)
Ciao
LooserLu

 

[TheBoathouse]

Intersting pictures that show different materials and layups between different manufacturers and different years. The hard "foamed" joint material in Al Russell's 2005 Vanguard is Plexus which is relatively new (4-5 years). My guess is the older UK boats used a similar material to 3M 5200.

 

[mange]

Thanks Mikko, thats exactly what I had in mind - when I'm ready I'll return with photos.

I agree with TheBoathouse - intresting to see different techniques in building a "one design" boat. For me the new Vanguard 2005 looks much better built. Beside that its clean and looks nice - I'm not comparing this - the boat is new.
I'm thinking of the GRP layers - they are more transparent which means the glass fibres are totally wet with polyester before it cured. All air must be removed, very important for the strength.
At least this new Vanguard seems to be better, havnt seen a later UK made.

About bonding - I think using epoxi is by far the best. Its one of the strongest and you can make it thicker by adding silica powder (no risk of filling the mast hole), you can cut glass- or graphite fibres and mix to make it even stronger - and you can do it yourself. I dont know about plexus but PU-bonding with something like M3 5200 requrie pressure during the curing - otherwise it will be "foam".