Gudgeons for 77' Laser

S

Sean Seward-Katzmiller

New Member
I just picked up a laser (PSL 30849 0775)....Made 77? model 75?

I searched the FAQ for this and could not find a response or a search engine on this site to explore old posts...therefore I will post this question:

Do I need to use raisers to raise old metal gudgeons off transom of 77' laser?

The gudgeons of my new old boat had been removed and the seller had found another boat from which to take the gudgeons.

The metal gudgeons appear to set down too close to the deck flange and do not allow pintles space to enter gudgeons. A pair of white plastic spacers were in the zip lock bag...and rust evidence suggests that they were used to raise the gudgeon off the transom. Is this true? If so I will need four to raise both gudgeons to same distance off transom and I found only two in the bag. I can make more, that is not the problem. I just want to confirm and understand why old metal gudgeons need to be raised off the transom on a 77' laser. Did later years have increased flange overlay requiring further distance between transom and gudgeon holes?

Or am I missing something else?

I look forward to accessing the links to prepare my boat for sailing.

Thank you for your time and knowledge.
Sean
 
Yours is a '75

Search for the forums is in the top right corner
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IIRC, the metal gudgeons did need spacers between the transom and the gudegons.
The center of the gudgeon hole needs to be be at least 1 3/8" away from the transom
If it were me, I would switch to the plastic gudgeons instead of making more shims..
http://www.intensitysails.com/reguforlasa.html
 
My older boat is a 70 something. The hull ID was covered over so not readable . It has the old SS gudgeons and the mounting holes are exactly 1.5 inch on center from the transom. They are directly mounted with no spacers.
 
The older of my two boats is #555 and has SS gudgeons with spacers under the top one, but not under the bottom one. Faced with similar questions, I was just going to replace them with some newer gudgeons I had on hand, but realized the mounting hole spacing was not the same. I was concerned that the rake of the rudder was different between my two boats and I once measured it carefully. I'm sorry to say that I have forgotten the results of my measurements!! Anyway, since the original screw holes were still good, i left the SS gudgeons on the old boat. I'll repeat that measurement when the snow allows me to get to the boats and if this thread is still active, post my results.
image.jpg
 
As I expected from this group, I see a lot of knowledgeable people. thank you all for the responses.

I went ahead and made a second pair of "spacers", but now I see a photo from Rob demonstrating only need for spacer at the top SS gudgeon.

Can anyone help me understand. I'm not sure that I need to put spacers in for the bottom gudgeon...in that case the measurement from transom to center of gudgeon varies. I did measure the distance with space and it fit above descriptions of 1 3/8". The spacer is 1/4". Therefore bottom gudgeon on Rob's boat must be 1 1/8" (transom to center of gudgeon hole).

Finally, I have never closely inspected the transom set up on the lasers I have sailed and have never noticed the spacer set up. Can anyone give a history of where it comes from, why...it seems to imply a changed angle of approach of the rudder. same sized plastic pieces would have lost this difference as shown in Rob Hair's photo.

Now that I see the search engine I will further search this topic.

Thank you,
Sean
 
I'm not the original owner of this boat, so I don't know if there were ever spacers on the lower gudgeon. Further, I have wondered if the transom on the older boats is at a different angle relative to the rest of the boat so that the rudder remains at the same angle as newer boats with the plastic gudgeons. In fact, I took that photo to use it in a post asking about that, but decided to keep the SS gudgeons to avoid having to drill new mounting holes. Does anyone know if there is a difference between the angle of the transom on boats made for SS gudgeons compared to boats made for the plastic gudgeons? This should have some effect on the helm - more or less weather helm or lee helm.
 
Transom angle was never changed

Check the rudder head with the pintles - If they are inline (which IIRC they are even on the old wood blades), the lower gudgeon should be the same distance from the transom as the top.
 
Rob,
I feel like we have a little riddle here.

Two examples of a top spacer for top gudeon only; Rob's photo and my zip lock bag of gudgeons from another laser.

There must be some historical explanation; change of design/manufacturing. Who is the laser historian who we could ask? Was this "new rudder angle" the secret rig 25 years ago? I am just curious. Eyeing my rudder I see that the pintles are well aligned...no 1/4" offset as would be needed (in theory) on Rob's boat.

No change of transom angle! Rob, can you check for alignment of pintles on the rudder that goes with that boat? In theory your bottom pintle on the rudder should stick out 1/4" forward of top pintle. But as I write this I realize that would mean turning one plan on two different axis....not good.....next theory??????

For now, since my pintles are aligned, I will stick with the top and bottom spaced out 1/4" on spacers to give the full 1 3/8" (transom to gudgeon hole center) distance.

Thanks to all.
 
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That boat is not near home, so I can't check the rudder pintles until I get up to our cottage up north. I doubt, however, that they are offset. I'm sure there is enough looseness that it doesn't matter and as you point out, when the tiller is moved the alignment would be wrong and bind if there wasn't some play.

You may find that when you add spacers to the lower gudgeon that your tiller is then lowered enough so that it hits the deck or the traveler clamcleat.
 
Guys it's most likely that the original gudgeon got hurt and was replaced with what could've been gotten hold of at the time, requiring a spacer pad to line up.
I wouldn't look too deep into it but I would still renew with plastic ones
 
That's possible, but there are no indications on my boat that the gudgeons were ever replaced. The mounting holes in the transom fit the SS gudgeons, not the plastic. There is no damage to the transom indicating some past trauma to gudgeon or transom. Bear in mind that mine is a very early boat (#555).
 
Well,
I took her sailing for a 6 hour day off marathon exploring the east shore of the San Francisco Bay (Richmond shoreline). The rudder worked well. spacers top and bottom.

Voodoo,
I think you may have a good idea.....one last hypothesis borrowing from your idea. Maybe the top gudgeon is a manufacturer's chosen item, a shorter leg making it a little less bendable than the longer arms of the lower SS gudgeon.

I went ahead and used the SS gudgeon....same holes, they are working well, if they ever bend I know that I have the plastic option.

Rob,
Are those two different sized gudgeons on your transom, with one needing a booster? The deciding factor will be if the center point of the gudgeon holes are equal distance from the transom If you ever get the measurement on those gudgeons I'm curious to find out. I won't loose any sleep over it.

Happy sailing to all.
 
We have an older boat that we use as a club boat and it has the stainless rudder gudgeons on it. This has no spacers at all and there are no issues with catching/fouling.
 
The top only gudgeon spacer mystery (as seen above in Rob's photo and supported by my zip lock bag with only two spacers) continues....a flawed secret go fast theory?......a design fluke? ......someone smoking it up before fixing it?.....we may never know
 
Those gudgeons look as though they have the same offset from transom surface to pintle hole as the ones on my boat, although it's hard to be sure from the pictures. If that's the case, then the amount that the deck overhangs past the transom is more on my boat and Sean's boat since without spacers the rudder can't be installed on our boats. That seems likely to me, since our boats were built presumably an ocean away from your club boat. I suspect our builder added spacers to make the rudder fit.

If I remember correctly, the current plastic gudgeons have a greater offset, resolving this. Unfortunately, the mounting holes aren't spaced the same as the SS ones, thus I left mine as they were.
 
I'm not convinced that the ancient builders had a right laugh to themselves and switched moulds for a short time, to produce a bunch of boats that were 1/8th inch shorter than the rest of the world.
It has to be the fitting itself, short throws on the arms..different, from an obscure class.
Have you offered up modern versions to see the difference ?
 
It seems to me that this amount of difference in deck overhang could be caused by a small difference in how the deck and hull were aligned when glued together. I think about 4 to 5 mm difference is all that it would take to get my rudder to fit. The plastic gudgeons eliminate this issue.
 
I wish I could measure both now, but the old boat is 125 miles north of me. I will do the measurements when I can get to the boat, but by then I'll be able sail and probably won't care so much to worry about this sort of thing :)
 
Take a look at the hull / deck join at the bow and transom. The actual goo/ bondo / 3m bead width.
Is one ultra thin & the other comparatively wide ?

Lolz, your post above came in as I wrote this
 
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