Even with afewsuppliers on the market,
"how can one explain the price difference between class and non-class sails? " Easily. Read my previous post above. Or this. But one more time: illegal parts, including sails, are cheaper exactly because they are illegal. They lack that one very important feature, so they should cost considerably less. The math is very simple. In that article, you make the same mistake as countless others in thinking that the price of fake sails is the "real" price of a legal sail and "The price of the class sails seems in fact to be kept artificially high".
*few = more than one.
Added to that: Optimist sails are, compared in sq. ft, even more expensive than Laser sails. I know the guy who owns Optiparts and Windesign (with one 'd' - these are Dutch companies), but I'm sure he will not 'show his cards' when I ask him about the prices for sails...
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Am I missing something? For several days I have tried to find WS/ILCA-noncompliant Lasers for sale on the Laser Performance UK site, and can find nothing; only Lasers which are advertised at the normal price. (They don't say whether or not they are ILCA/WS-compliant.) Same goes for Sailboats, which is the major Laser dealer in the UK.
Can someone point me in the right direction?
Back to my experience with Optimist sails: the producers often use only one or two channels to sell their items. E.g.: J-Sails, Olimpic and Optimax (= Optiparts) are all sold through one supplier here. The supplier has some 'room' for sales and special offers; but most are pretty much in the same price range. Most sails are around the 340 euros mark. None of the sails is made from superior fabric! More or less all are the same.
Optimist sailors (i.e. their parents...) choose the sail with the regatta results in their hands! A few years back, J-Sails (Poland) ruled the waves. As did Toni Tio and Olimpic a few years earlier. Slowly, Optimax conquered the slipways. Most forget that it's the sailor who's the winner, not the sail. Good Optimist sailors can win with a handkerchief tied to the boom (well... sort of).
Those sails are sold with a written document stating the precise measurements of that sail. Only then, the Class will allow a button. Most big names provide the sail with a button
With the introduction of more suppliers for Laser sails, things will turn like the Optimist sails. A short drop in retail prices: the new name wants to get a piece of the action. Then everybody focuses on the 'brand vs success' ratio. Same will go for a situation with different suppliers of the hull. Again: take the Opti-class as an example: Winner, McLaughlin, Devoti: all A+ brands, but all in the same price-bracket.
I like the article. Especially the part about the needlessly intricate design of the Optimist. Indeed, it isn't easy to rig, adjust and sail. And it should have a self-bailing set-up. Sadly the international Optimist class is pretty old-fashioned with that, I suppose. Furthermore: an Olympic coach told me that most (not all) medal winners didn't do well in the Optimist. Not bad sailors, of course. But not the top-of-the-bill. In so many words: you don't need an Optimist to become Olympic champion.
On the matter of Regattas... Garda is by far the biggest and perhaps the nicest, weather-wise. We, here in Holland have the Dutch Youth Regatta (DYR) with at least 400 Optimist sailors. Mostly from Europa, but also a lot from as far as Singapore or South America. Fun thing is, that the other classes like Laser, RS-X, Nacra etc are also on the water. In total about 1000 boats. There are also clinics for kids to join and try another type of boat. No matter if you're from Singapore or Peru: if you want to try a Nacra with a Dutch coach, you're welcome to try. This year, we see a lot of youngsters going from the Optimist to the RS-X surfboard. That's has a lot to do with the clinics from the Dutch World and Olympic champions during the 2018 DYR!
About what you wrote: I agree with that! You need to keep out of arms-race between parents buying the most incredible stuff for their kids. The same parents that go mad when their kid didn't win... ("I am not here to find out that you got a BFD twice today!" is what I heard on the slipway at the end of a gruesome long and wet sailing day with a few hundred young kids around us).
According to my son's stories about Radial sailors from other countries, a bunch of sailors are backed by endless sums of money from very-well-to-do parents. Last Europa Cup in Hyères: the Dutch crew was waiting for their plane home (cattle class... 36 euros for a single way ticket!) when one sailor arrived at the airport and was guided through customs towards a waiting private jet from his father, ready to him home! At least one other sailor from Asia has an annual budget of $200k, including the Coach' salary. The risk is, that when the rules are 'loosened' that it's the money that will able some people to buy faster equipment. Therefore, I'm pretty happy with the tight rules, even when it implies expensive sails - but at least the same material for all!
Hi. Laser sails are on very strict measurement so no R&D involved. And there are big batches produced. The production cost out of Thailand or another location is probably around US$50 - actually maybe less. Same cost for class and non-class sails (except for the button). IMHO, the non-class sails provide a good indicator of what should be a fair / competitive pricing for Laser sails. I have seen examples of classes which get the sailmakers bid for batches of sails, in order to get the lowest price - at a specified quality / measurement - to the benefit of the sailors. Maybe an example to follow ..."how can one explain the price difference between class and non-class sails? " Easily. Read my previous post above. Or this. But one more time: illegal parts, including sails, are cheaper exactly because they are illegal. They lack that one very important feature, so they should cost considerably less. The math is very simple. In that article, you make the same mistake as countless others in thinking that the price of fake sails is the "real" price of a legal sail and "The price of the class sails seems in fact to be kept artificially high".
It actually never ceases to amaze me how people complain about the price of Laser sails. They are some of the cheapest racing sails anywhere! Menno already touched on the fact that sail prices are much higher in classes where the free market is allowed to reign. I always compare the Laser and the Europe: a sail for the latter from my local sailmaker features a roughly similar cut and cloth (and of course, area) as the Standard Mark 2, and it costs 1150 euros. A Lightning jib (roughly the size of a Radial sail) from the same loft is 920 €. And no one's talking about "slashing" those numbers! (And no, they're not that much durable, either.)
Sure, Laser sails could be licensed to more sailmakers than the current two. They could even have their own tack patches and the right to sell them independently of the hull builders. But it's rather wishful thinking that it would lead to lower prices, at least without heavy regulation.
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Research and development costs don't add 60 or 70 % to the price of an individual sail of a one-design class; even "tailor made" sails are practically always about small tweaks to an old proven design. And the actual physical sailmaking is still a handicraft - it doesn't matter much if you make ten or a thousand similar sails as each is put together individually.Laser sails are on very strict measurement so no R&D involved. And there are big batches produced.
What do you base that number on? Do you have a source?The production cost out of Thailand or another location is probably around US$50 - actually maybe less.
You still don't get it. Want it or not, the button adds considerable immaterial value to the product, which is (and should be) reflected in the price. Just staring at the production costs is pretty naive.Same cost for class and non-class sails (except for the button).
Why? Should the fake sails then be even cheaper?IMHO, the non-class sails provide a good indicator of what should be a fair / competitive pricing for Laser sails.
Research and development costs don't add 60 or 70 % to the price of an individual sail of a one-design class; even "tailor made" sails are practically always about small tweaks to an old proven design. And the actual physical sailmaking is still a handicraft - it doesn't matter much if you make ten or a thousand similar sails as each is put together individually.
No matter how you look at it, Laser sails are still comparatively cheap.
What do you base that number on? Do you have a source?
You still don't get it. Want it or not, the button adds considerable immaterial value to the product, which is (and should be) reflected in the price. Just staring at the production costs is pretty naive.
Why? Should the fake sails then be even cheaper?
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The RS-X or it's owner will evolve into foiling, I'm sure about that. A few of my son's Laser team members also sail the Waszp. Another evolution that's going on, boat-wise. One of his teammates did his final-year project about a foiling Bavaria... He had big fun with that project (science and maths-wise). but what's more important: with the America's Cup boats on the top-end of the mountain and the interest of young sailors for foiling on the bottom of the mountain, it will not take long before the hard-to-move-and-rusted International Classes have to move towards more speed, more action.
Combine the new developments with the current mess of ILCA vs LPE and I get the feeling that this quarrel is nothing more than de lana caprinaia rixari. A quarrel that's not worth fighting for. When the dust has settled, the caravan has moved on leaving all parties with empty hands.
Back on track: looking at prices of the RS-X and the parts... well, these are eye-watering as well! 800 euros for a sail is not cheap. I have no idea how long they stay in proper condition, though. That puts the Laser parts in perspective!
There is a really simple solution. If you think the costs for legal sailing equipment is too expensive, go sail a different class or take up another sport. The strength of the class comes from tight control of the design, monitoring of the builders and the ILCA involvement in putting on 6 World Championships per year, in most cases with the equipment being provided to the competitors. The sale of the Buttons and Plaques are used to partially fund those events. There are plenty of other classes around where no one cares if you went to the most expensive loft / boat builder or made your own sail or boat.Well if you want to pay a highly priced sail, it will always be an option for you. But frankly the sails are not cheap for what they are, obviously, the non-class sails providing a plain demonstration.
If a non-class sail sells for around US$100 retail, imported in the US, it's a reasonable guess that the production cost should not exceed US$50 - as there is transportation, and obviously retail margins involved.
As indicated in the blog post, the buttons could stay, or go. Whatever. What is needed is to have several approved sailmakers, competing with each other, and producing exactly the same class approved sails.
The fake sails would progressively disappear probably. Rooster, Intensity, and others may prefer to make class legal sails if they are welcome by the class to produce them.
If there are huge changes with the Laser and the Laser class, why not fix this once and for all? And actually, such competition should apply to the existing 3 sails - 4.7, Radial, MKII - but also to the upcoming ones ... C5, C6, C8 ... Not sure such idea would be welcome everywhere ...
Anyway, the class may need to fix this in the context of the Fair Reasonable And Non-Discriminatory policies demanded by World Sailing. Such policies are not supposed to apply to the hulls only.
I don't understand what that is supposed to mean. If the price of legal Laser/ILCA sails comes down the way you want, how would you pay more? Are you envisioning special "de luxe" Laser sails? Or are you referring to other classes?Well if you want to pay a highly priced sail, it will always be an option for you.
The only thing obvious here is that you keep refusing to understand the fundamental reason between the price difference. Immaterial things have a monetary value. Please try at least to acknowledge that.frankly the sails are not cheap for what they are, obviously, the non-class sails providing a plain demonstration.
If we're talking about USD 100 sails, then we're talking about inferior quality and exploited labour.If a non-class sail sells for around US$100 retail, imported in the US, it's a reasonable guess that the production cost should not exceed US$50 - as there is transportation, and obviously retail margins involved.
The button is a neat and smart way to mark an official sail, in addition of being a tax stamp. If you get rid of those, you need something else. Actual (ink) stamps fade away, and sewn marks can be replaced and faked much more easily.the buttons could stay, or go.
If the products are identical, how would their producers compete? I assume you're (wishfully) thinking that they would lower their prices, but it's just as likely (or even more so) that the prices rise as more people than one would think equate "best" and "most expensive". Even with political (ILCA/WS) regulation, it's likely that sailmakers would ask for, or close to, whatever the maximum would be.What is needed is to have several approved sailmakers, competing with each other, and producing exactly the same class approved sails
Steve Cockerill might actually do something like that, because he knows the class and what he's doing. Others who don't would go on selling fake stuff because that's their business.The fake sails would progressively disappear probably. Rooster, Intensity, and others may prefer to make class legal sails if they are welcome by the class to produce them.
There is a really simple solution. If you think the costs for legal sailing equipment is too expensive, go sail a different class or take up another sport. The strength of the class comes from tight control of the design, monitoring of the builders and the ILCA involvement in putting on 6 World Championships per year, in most cases with the equipment being provided to the competitors. The sale of the Buttons and Plaques are used to partially fund those events. There are plenty of other classes around where no one cares if you went to the most expensive loft / boat builder or made your own sail or boat.
I don't understand what that is supposed to mean. If the price of legal Laser/ILCA sails comes down the way you want, how would you pay more? Are you envisioning special "de luxe" Laser sails? Or are you referring to other classes?
The only thing obvious here is that you keep refusing to understand the fundamental reason between the price difference. Immaterial things have a monetary value. Please try at least to acknowledge that.
If we're talking about USD 100 sails, then we're talking about inferior quality and exploited labour.
The button is a neat and smart way to mark an official sail, in addition of being a tax stamp. If you get rid of those, you need something else. Actual (ink) stamps fade away, and sewn marks can be replaced and faked much more easily.
If the products are identical, how would their producers compete? I assume you're (wishfully) thinking that they would lower their prices, but it's just as likely (or even more so) that the prices rise as more people than one would think equate "best" and "most expensive". Even with political (ILCA/WS) regulation, it's likely that sailmakers would ask for, or close to, whatever the maximum would be.
Steve Cockerill might actually do something like that, because he knows the class and what he's doing. Others who don't would go on selling fake stuff because that's their business.
The only thing that the class really needs is the removal of the regional sales limitations, and that really seems to be coming now with LP out of the game. I agree that having a choice of several suppliers is a good thing, not primarily for the competition between them, but to have a steady and reliable global supply of equipment.
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Don't believe everything that LP publishes.Now, in terms of the work of the class for controlling builders, you may want to enlighten us exactly about what happened with the Aussie Lasers. How many such higher spec Lasers were produced? What kind of impact did that have on the results at regattas? Why didn't the class came public if there was an infrigement, and why apparently no sanctions towards the builder? You seem to be in the know, so I think many people would like to learn about this, as clearly, transparency is not the modus operandi of the class.
Well, that's because of the fundamental difference in the rules in those classes: the Optimist is not an SMOD, so every boat actually has to be measured, and have it all recorded on a certificate. That's how it is with all "old" classes, with roots in small-batch and even amateur building. The Sunfish was the first to do away with that, and the Hobies and the Laser followed. The consumers have obviously liked the concept.I remember that, when I bought my son his first Optimist (a Far East), the boat came with all sorts of documents with various data - the measurement certificate. A few years later, when I bought him a Winner, the same sort of papers came with the boat. When buying the Laser, I received a credit card-sized document stating that this boat '... was built within the rules of the ILCA and World Sailing.' That's all, no numbers, no data.
That's the good thing about supplied equipment at major events! No one can bring a "special" or "tweaked" boat to these, which makes for a more level field.I've also heard -not confirmed- that there was an uproar last year in Arhus, Denmark because of some sailors who weren't happy with the 'feel' of the charter boats.
That's the good thing about supplied equipment at major events! No one can bring a "special" or "tweaked" boat to these, which makes for a more level field.
Of course, that many boats (hundreds!) can't be totally identical. It's just something you have to live with. But this brought to my mind the only time I've done some remotely "Marit-like" choosing, which was when my father bought a boat from the 1999 Youth Worlds. I got to pick from four spare hulls stacked on their trolleys; the Indian judge at the regatta pointed where you want to push on the topsides, and there really was a small but noticeable difference! So I got to take the stiffest. It was a good boat.the message I got from that event was that not all supplied boats supplied there were the same
Don't believe everything that LP publishes.
The point of which is what? That's all just whataboutism from LP's part. Like, "see how that other kid didn't get punished for something much worse that they did!" Pretty childish. What do they think they're achieving with that?we are starting to get a good picture of the story
“It shall be the policy of the Association to maintain the Laser as the epitome of a strict one-design class of sailboat.” — International Laser Class Association Constitution. -- check it out ... ILCA Constitution – International Laser Class AssociationThe point of which is what? That's all just whataboutism from LP's part. Like, "see how that other kid didn't get punished for something much worse that they did!" Pretty childish. What do they think they're achieving with that?
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