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Easy to capsize?

Mooseman

New Member
The first thing that occurs to any nonsailing person, when looking at sailboat underway, is that it is potentially risky. I have friends who will never join me for a sailboat ride because of the fear that the boat will capsize and toss them into the drink. As sailors, we understand the risks and mitigate the danger by adjusting the controls and balancing the forces. So the fact that one must be ready to let the sheets out, or shift their weight, is all part of sailing experience. There is a point; however, when the continuous application of control seriously suppresses the pleasure of the sailing experience. Sailboat characteristics that reward the racing sailor with speed, may be an annoyance to the casual daysailor out for a simple pleasant cruise.

My point is this:

The 14.2's hull, despite its width, does not have a hard enough chine to provide fundamental stability. Passenger weight shift is more critical than most sailboats, but you get speed.

The sail plan is too big for a boat with a 340 lb. weight and a hull of this configuration, but its good in light air.

The standing rigging is too heavy and may make it top heavy in a turn, but its as tough as nails.

The rudder is too small to afford quick, and sometimes critical, directional compensation, but it is light and easy to turn.

You can add a larger rudder, and reduce the sail plan, (as members of our forum suggest), but you can't do anything about the hull or the standing rigging.

In short, if you want to have a great day-sail and a relaxing afternoon, you better get a different boat. I learned the hard way. I bought a brand new 2007 14.2 only to find how sensitive the boat really is. I did not believe that Catalina would sell a boat like this and market it as a "Family Daysailer". I tried to contact the factory about my concerns three (3) times without any response. Odd, because when I had questions about a possible purchase, they contacted me in a matter of hours. Fact is, they know about the capsize ratio being poor, (3.58). Why do you think they introduced the fixed weighted bulb keel model? Even that did not do much good.

I am so convinced of this problem that I am selling my new boat. If you think otherwise, and are looking for a new 14.2, then check the classified section of this website. I can give you a great deal on aboat that will keep you busy.

Mooseman
 

thedstrom

New Member
Moosman, I am amazed as to how experience you are with the 14.2 considering you are trying to sell you brand new boat that has never been in the water! Sorry, but I just had to say something about you claiming to be an experienced sailor after reading your postings since earlier this year. Maybe you know something about sailing, but what do you really know about the 14.2 since apparently you have neve been on one, at least not on the water? No, I do not want to buy yours. I have had a mod 2 since 2000 and have never capsized, although I have had it out in winds over 20 mph. And I do not even have hiking straps. In my opinion the 14.2 is not a beginner boat, but is not a hard boat for any experienced sailor. Since you apparantly are not getting any bites at your attempts to sell it, perhaps you may want to give it a try on the water.
 

Mooseman

New Member
Reply to Capsize problem

I have recently tried a Capri 14.2 Mod 3. here in Colorado. Being an experienced sailor of 33 years I know daysailor characteristics, and I immediately identified the 14.2s handicaps. The 62 year old gentleman who provided the C 14.2 demonstration sail claims he will be selling his as well. He says he is "too old to be dumped in the cold lakes of Colorado".

I have sailed Shields, Rebels, Precision 15s (also a bad mannered boat), Thistles, Americans, Sunfish, Seawards, West Wight Potters, Chryslers, Starwinds, Stars (beautiful boat), Penguins, Snarks, Odays (17s and Javalins), Blue Jays, Montgomery 15 &17, (Sailed to Cuba in a 17 in 1993), MacGreagors, and a lot more than I can't remember. I sailed the Great Lakes and the Ocean. So I think I know something about sailing. If you are happy with the performance of the Capri 14.2, then perhaps you should try other boats and find out what you are missing. The official "Capsize Ratio" of the Capri 14.2 is 3.58. Not good. The mathematics of the calculation confirms the bad manners without any human's opinion. I'll think I'll pass.

Have a great time with your boat.

Mooseman
 

thedstrom

New Member
Perhaps you should have passed before you bought the boat. If you have so much experience, it must have been a really good salesman to get you to buy the 14.2 without you investigating or trying it first. So, you may not want to brag about how smart you are. Why don't you sell you boat on Craigslist or Ebay and hope no one reads your comments on this site about how much you hate the 14.2. If you have something constructive to add or about your "real" experiences, please share that with us. Otherwise, please take your whining elsewhere. BTW, I have been sailing since 1969 when I was 16.
 

Mooseman

New Member
Uninformed

Sorry,

But you are just uninformed. You need to experience other boats with lower capsize ratios, AND you need to read all the capsize and turtle stories posted within your own Association's log.

Have fun, and keep that mainsheet well-in-hand.
 

My-Ria

New Member
The Catalina 14 is a dinghy sailboat....what did you expect?

It amazes me how anyone would be surprised that a dinghy sailboat could be a bit tender in a blow....my gosh if you want passenger stability go to a deep keel 30 footer and spend 80 to 120k. I have a C 320, sail it regularly, but I love my C 14 for the sheer fun factor and because it demands my attention! Sailing experience can be a good teacher or it can be an excuse for not learning new techniques.* Why don't you trade your C 14 for a pontoon? BTW I have 33 years of sailing experiences!
 

Mooseman

New Member
C 14.2

"Well the big boats may get the glory, but its the small boats make the sailor ".

I'm sure you love your C 14.2. As you say it demands a lot of your attention......
A LOT OF ATTENTION.

I am surprised on how many C-14 owners on this site are unaware of how nice and relaxing it can be to cruise in a predictable daysailer. Maybe it's because they all own C 14.2s. Again, read your own association forum comments. I did, and its loaded with capsize and turtle stories. Keep your C 14.2, I'm getting rid of mine.

Happy Sailing, am keep that mainsheet well-in-hand.
 

JGM

Member
I just read Mooseman's original post a couple times and to be honest, I can't find anything I disagree with. I just wish I had the extra dough to buy his boat. The C-14 might not be what he likes or the type of sedate daysailer which inspires the confidence of his buddies, but that's OK, isn't it?

Personally, I like the C-14's spirited demeanor. Although I've been sailing for 40 years, it's still fun to live on the edge a little. Given the C-14's sail area, I even thought it would be a hoot to hang a trapeze on her so my 12 year old daughter could really help me hold her down in a stiff breeze. When we go out, everyone wears a PFD and their bathing suit, not khakis and topsiders.

Is she easy to capsize? I guess that depends on your perspective. I like to sail when it's windy, and yes, one day we got in over our heads. If you take chances, occasionally you're gonna lose. If you don't, then the C-14 poses no innate design hazards. What I didn't like was how quickly she turtled. A Hobie Bob has fixed that. We don't leave the harbor without it.

Jim
 

kentth

Member
Is a C14 easy to capsize? I am into my 11th month with my C14 a mod 1. The first time out I capsized it and even turtled it. the wind was 14 gusting to 22. The 22 got me. Filled the mast with foam and never got to test it until this weekend. The rest of last year was winds calm to about 7 knots.

This year I have had the boat out solo four times all in gusty conditions. I have really been working hard to learn to control it. Though I had it figured out. This last weekend, the wind was blowing 12 gusting 18, I was tied to the dock, not tight, about 5' of line, dropped the center board, secured everything, put up the sails all sheets loose. The boat was just setting there luffing into the wind, like a boat should. Someone on the dock asked me a question, I looked up to answer them, got hit with gust of wind and over it went. The foam in the mast worked, we didn't turtle, but I really would have rather capsized out in the lake not tied to the dock. Only thing hurt was my pride, and now everybody in the sailing club knows me as the one with the tippy boat.

Kent
 

Mooseman

New Member
You did nothing wrong tippy

Kentth:

Interesting story. I suspect you did nothing wrong. It is the nature of the boat. I have sailed an ODay 17 in lake Michigan on several occasions with 25 knot winds and 3 -4 foot seas and it remained under control. You know as a sailor, you can adjust trim and attitude to a variety of wind conditions, and still be in control. The forum feedback, both here and other sites, seems to suggest that there is very little time to make those critical adjustments on the C 14.2. That's the repeated comment I read everywhere: Bam...and you're on your side.
I have looked at the hull and rigging, time and time again, and I can't figure out why that is the boat's characteristic. May never know.

Mooseman
 

kentth

Member
Mooseman:

I still have a lot of fun sailing it. When I tell non-sailors about it I compare it to a sports car vs an Buick. They both can get squirrelly at times. I would just like to get things figured out so my wife will go sailing with me.

Kent
 

fan

Member
I've sailed 40 of my 48 years. I have owned several C14.2 to day sail and race. The boat does a good job for both but its a dinghy that needs your attention in breeze. I have never capsized when sailing one but have come close. My two young sons learned to sail and race on C14.2s and never capsized one either. I have capsized in my Laser and a friends Lightning (hard chined) and also a Thistle. Dinghies can capsize and thats part of the game. I understand that this Capri is not suited to your needs and by selling it you are doing the right thing. You might want to try a Vangard Nomad as its a fun boat that is more stable.

Good luck Mooseman, its hard to find the perfect boat.

Richard

PS: Be safe and always wear your pfd !
 

Mooseman

New Member
Don't tip the Wife

Thanks for you comments, and the suggestion of the Nomad. I think I can still manage a spill or two in the drink while sailing, but my wife would not. Gotta go the stable route. It's a shame, cause I will drop some bucks in the transition.

Happy Sailing......Mooseman
 

fan

Member
I understand 100%. My wife is a golfer and hated sailing because her father took her and her brother sailing when she was a child. Dads a nice guy but a scary sailor. Decades later she wanted nothing to do with sailing. At first we'd only sail in light wind late in the day. Lots of easy going confidence building stuff. Also gave me a chance to better learn the boat. Long story shorter, years later she loves to race.

The boats do day sail quite well in the below 10 knots stuff, easy to do in here in San Diego. Bummer about your boat.

Richard
 

SHNOOL

Member
Probably a better choice would have been the keel model.

Probably a better choice would have been the keel model. But going to something bigger, and with a shoal keel, in general would probably more suit you.

I too have sailed a decent amount of boats. Precision, Designers Choice, Oday 15, and DS models, force 5, Montego, Catalina 22, etc.

Sounds to me you have more experience than I... With this in mind, it should have be pretty apparent just by looking at the design of the hull, that the Capri 14.2 is a one design racing/planing sailboat.. Designed, primarily as a "go-fast" trailerable. In much the same vein as say a Precision 15.

My first time out, in squirrly winds, I stood her on her side, filled the cockpit, and laughed all the way home (wife wasn't quite as happy). I did not capsize per se', but we got pretty wet... Throwing weight to high side, stood her up, and we learned a lesson... If you aren't moving, than taking a puff with things all cinched tight, is probably a recipe for disaster!

Part of the charm of the Capri 14 is it's Big Boat hardware, and tweakability... And since she's designed to pickup and race, you see/learn from your tweaks quick, both good and bad. Does she capsize.. Yes! Um some lessons are harder learned than others.

Might I suggest, either A Catalina 18, or a Precision 165? If that kind of learning is unacceptable to you. These are both shoal draft KEEL boats, that are notoriously stable, but perform like cruisers.

I used to look on dingy sailboats as newbie fodder (sorry folks)... I now have seen that (and you can tell by this forum) seasoned sailers get WAY more out of these dingy racing boats then they ever did with a keel boat. I suspect many of the members have 14.2s along with larger keel boats... They take the family out on the keelboats, but go play with the 14.2.

I can see why. Sailed with a decent amount of understanding that if you screw up, you're going swimming, these boats can be a blast to sail, in even small amounts of wind.

If I had the $$$ I'd upgrade my mod 1, and buy yours ;)

But alas, even I have to find something that is more "family minded," to get my wife daughter to go with me. I have looked at the Catalina 18, and the Capri 22, and even the Precision 165.

But rest assured if I can find a way, I'll keep the 14.2 close by. It is light and trailerable by even a sub-compact car, and can launch almost anywhere! But most of all, because it is fun!

Sorry you had a bad experience with yours Mooseman... it does sound like you got mis-matched for a boat though.
 

Mooseman

New Member
Response to SHNOOL's capsize concern

Sorry SHNOOL to hear about your episode. Seems you're not alone with the " Easy to Capsize" issue. As for me, I will not have to contend with this. I sold my 14.2 and I am done with it I wish you luck on the fair weather days. Just keep that mainsheet well in hand. HEY CATALINA YACHT COMPANY! are you reading and listening to this? There is a trend here and people are starting to catch on. Seems the fixed bulb keel was not a solution either. Back to the drawing board Catalina, and a removal of the "Family Daysailer" comment in your brochure.
 

SHNOOL

Member
Perhaps I miswrote?

I have the centerboard model... I just suggested the keel model might bring the boat into a more mild mannered mode for you. But alas, I think you should avoid catalina.

It should be noted, that I have sailed my capri since her maiden voyage (for me), in winds up to 28knots... and have not capsized it. Including in a few thunderstorms (stupid I know).

I think Catalina, has made a winner of a racing dingy my friend... Please don't include me in your rant.

I merely suggest you steer your purchases to keel boats... now I rescind... I think maybe you need to look at the Picnic Cat, from http://www.com-pacyachts.com

Yup, you are definitely nearing catboat status... Although I pity Com-pac for your abuse of them.
 

goodsteel53

New Member
Talk about sour grapes! Mooseman... it's apparent your disatisfaction runs deeper than just your concerns, and I guess you feel dissed by the lack of communication from Catalina regarding your unhappiness regarding the 14.2, and quick communication to sell you... I get that. Did you know anything about the 14.2 before you bought it, or think that you could tame it? Why did you buy one? I'm a total newbie... to the 14.2 and sailing, can't wait to learn to sail, and am alert to the "flaws" of my boat, but not afraid to give it a fair shot. If it's not for me, then that's the way it is, but I'm not going to blame the boat... too many very happy owners! You sold yours, good luck, and adios!
 

fan

Member
Bye troll

Moose ,
Happy to hear you sold your boat, now move along as you have turned into a troll. No one likes trolls and I suggest to the board members to ignor the moosetroll in the future. Go find an electric powerboat or better yet a soft chair in front of your tv where you can have some cheese with you whine.
 

Solarfry

Member
This is a pretty old thread but you should know that Catalina makes a 14.2 with a fixed keel that is used in many rental fleets. It is self righting so you don't need a hobie bob and as stable as a dinghy can get. When buying a boat please remember that salesmen will say anything to get you to buy a boat and paper holds anything you put on it whether true or outright lies..
 

aquaman

Active Member
This is a pretty old thread but you should know that Catalina makes a 14.2 with a fixed keel that is used in many rental fleets. It is self righting so you don't need a hobie bob and as stable as a dinghy can get. When buying a boat please remember that salesmen will say anything to get you to buy a boat and paper holds anything you put on it whether true or outright lies..
I sold my Catalina 22 years ago (due to wife issues) but have kept in touch with sailing ever since. Just picked up my version 1 last October. Was aware there is a fixed keel model on the market, which was much better in the stability arena, but decided to chase a swing board version because:
1. $$$ I am on a tight budget and grabbed mine for $1200, only a 5 hour drive to seal the deal. Most of the ones I saw for sale would have posed a major transportation problem getting to Chicago.
2. Being a singlehander, I preferred the beachability and ease of the lightweight boat for launch/retrieve/and general trailer handling.
3. Out of the 3 times I got out last October one of them was in 20 + winds. Sailed with main only and with vigilance was able to keep good control. The boat handled well. Even got my treasured hat
knocked off and was able to retrieve it while underway!
4. Since I bought mine for cheap that left me with some $$ to invest in improvements. Specifically to address the "tender boat" problem. So I will:
a. Modify jib to roller furling. That will give the option of jib usage depending on my take on wind speeds, even if I'm underway.
b. Install reef points on the main. Then I could decide how to set up the main before leaving the dock. I think running under reefed main only would tolerate some pretty strong winds.
c. Do the "Hobie Baby Bob" option for the top of the mast to guarantee no turtling.
d. Install boarding ladder on the stern to make recovery easier after righting the boat. Plus being able to cool off on hot light air days.

As previously stated, I would have preferred to have the fixed keel version. But only if it was possible to wet moor it for the season. Mine will be stored on trailer at a small local park district lake, all rigging left up and ready to go. Also will be doing a lot of "grab and go" trailering as there are a lot of nice medium sized lakes within close proximity and I plan to get out on those also. Even Lake Michigan when the forecasts are favorable. So I'm confident I can make this work!
 
The first thing that occurs to any nonsailing person, when looking at sailboat underway, is that it is potentially risky. I have friends who will never join me for a sailboat ride because of the fear that the boat will capsize and toss them into the drink. As sailors, we understand the risks and mitigate the danger by adjusting the controls and balancing the forces. So the fact that one must be ready to let the sheets out, or shift their weight, is all part of sailing experience. There is a point; however, when the continuous application of control seriously suppresses the pleasure of the sailing experience. Sailboat characteristics that reward the racing sailor with speed, may be an annoyance to the casual daysailor out for a simple pleasant cruise.

My point is this:

The 14.2's hull, despite its width, does not have a hard enough chine to provide fundamental stability. Passenger weight shift is more critical than most sailboats, but you get speed.

The sail plan is too big for a boat with a 340 lb. weight and a hull of this configuration, but its good in light air.

The standing rigging is too heavy and may make it top heavy in a turn, but its as tough as nails.

The rudder is too small to afford quick, and sometimes critical, directional compensation, but it is light and easy to turn.

You can add a larger rudder, and reduce the sail plan, (as members of our forum suggest), but you can't do anything about the hull or the standing rigging.

In short, if you want to have a great day-sail and a relaxing afternoon, you better get a different boat. I learned the hard way. I bought a brand new 2007 14.2 only to find how sensitive the boat really is. I did not believe that Catalina would sell a boat like this and market it as a "Family Daysailer". I tried to contact the factory about my concerns three (3) times without any response. Odd, because when I had questions about a possible purchase, they contacted me in a matter of hours. Fact is, they know about the capsize ratio being poor, (3.58). Why do you think they introduced the fixed weighted bulb keel model? Even that did not do much good.

I am so convinced of this problem that I am selling my new boat. If you think otherwise, and are looking for a new 14.2, then check the classified section of this website. I can give you a great deal on aboat that will keep you busy.

Mooseman
 
Oh dear, sorry about that... I must’ve clicked the post reply button accidentally, this is my first post, can you tell? ;-)
I know this thread is 11 years old but I just wanted to take a moment to thank Mooseman for this thread and his kind cautionary words of wisdom. After reading all of this thread, it has settled a question for me (and because of this, my husband will be thrilled!). I just bought my first sailboat! $250 for a Holder 14. It’s in great shape, just needs to be cleaned up which I will do today... the sails are in great shape, the trailer is old and my husband will have to work on it but he likes doing that sort of thing, for the most part. There is a Catalina Capri 14.2 for sale on craigslist an hour away and I have been obsessed for the last 24 hours thinking I should go buy it for $1,000 and sell my “new” little Holder 14 (even though I haven’t sailed it yet! Because I don’t know how to sail! ). My attraction to the Capri 14.2 was that I wouldn’t have to duck to avoid the boom. Thanks to Mooseman, I understand now that the Capri 14.2 is definitely not for me... a shaky new sailor ( living with a slightly more experienced sailor and three boys). I am 50 and I don’t really want to go in the drink. If I don’t have to. And I’d like to take my gal friend out (with our dogs) eventually and I definitely don’t want us all to end up in the drink!
I thought it was unfortunate that the other Capri 14.2 owners had such fragile egos (speaking of tender!) that they had to bash his attempts to help new folks like me. I really appreciated his honesty and thoroughness. He saved me and my husband a lot of money, time and frustration. Now I’m free to fully embrace and learn on my sweet little Holder 14 and move up to a bigger boat only when I’ve earned my stripes. That’s what these forums are for. Thanks Mooseman, if you’re still out there! You are my hero!
 

Winston29

Active Member
I find my Mod 2 (1992) Capri 14.2 to be anything but tender. It's a very stable boat that only tries to dump me in the water if I'm stupid enough to go out in winds above 20mph... And even then I have to do something dumb, like fail to sheet out when it starts to tip over.

In light to moderate winds, the conditions the 14.2 was designed for, it's just fine... but to each their own.

Congratulations on the new boat! :cool: I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun with it.
 

tjspiel

New Member
This is an old thread, I know. I ran across it when I was looking for information on Capri 18s.

Obviously Moosman felt misled by Catalina's marketing of the 14.2 as a family boat. And he's an experienced sailer but clearly is used to something quite a bit different.

I belong to a sailing club that owns 5 Catalina 16.5s, a boat that is probably more tender than the 14.2. We put Hobie mast floats on all of them. After any kind of storm we'll find a couple of them knocked down at their moorings, - especially if the rudder was left down. But lots of boats get knocked down in the same conditions.

Everyone in the club has to go through a capsize drill before they're allowed to take a boat out on their own so that they know what to do if it happens.

If like me, you grew up sailing performance boats like Flying Dutchman, Lasers, and various cats, getting wet and yes, capsizing is part of sailing. But not everyone wants that kind of sailing experience, - which is why I'm now looking at a keelboat, - mostly for my family. But, I still love the more raw experience of smaller boats. Moosman maybe does not.

Just about any boat, especially a daysailer, is going to get knocked down when pushed too far. How much responsibility lies with the boat maker and the salespeople to explain how likely this is for a given boat?
 

DeereJ18

New Member
This is an old thread, I know. I ran across it when I was looking for information on Capri 18s.

Obviously Moosman felt misled by Catalina's marketing of the 14.2 as a family boat. And he's an experienced sailer but clearly is used to something quite a bit different.

I belong to a sailing club that owns 5 Catalina 16.5s, a boat that is probably more tender than the 14.2. We put Hobie mast floats on all of them. After any kind of storm we'll find a couple of them knocked down at their moorings, - especially if the rudder was left down. But lots of boats get knocked down in the same conditions.

Everyone in the club has to go through a capsize drill before they're allowed to take a boat out on their own so that they know what to do if it happens.

If like me, you grew up sailing performance boats like Flying Dutchman, Lasers, and various cats, getting wet and yes, capsizing is part of sailing. But not everyone wants that kind of sailing experience, - which is why I'm now looking at a keelboat, - mostly for my family. But, I still love the more raw experience of smaller boats. Moosman maybe does not.

Just about any boat, especially a daysailer, is going to get knocked down when pushed too far. How much responsibility lies with the boat maker and the salespeople to explain how likely this is for a given boat?
Tjspiel You made some good points. I love my 1999 hull #4680 14.2!
 

KansasPaul

New Member
This is a really old thread but I feel a need to respond. I'm new to sailing - 3 years experience. I learned to sail piloting an MC16 - fast, stable and forgiving boat but not immune to capsize and 90% of those result in turtling. I've owned Laser Bahia which had less stability but never turtled. The fact is that centerboard class boats will tip over, some more than others. At my age (61) I don't relish the thought of going on unplanned swimming events, but those do happen on centerboard boats. I lead a class for the introduction of sailing to new people - that class includes the righting of a capsized boat. This is a reality. Being prepared for a capsize is why we train for it. I sailed for 2 years without having a capsize, in year 3 I had 4 in a 2 week period. My point is that this happens, especially when sailing in heavier winds but a capsize can occur in lighter winds if the pilot makes a mistake. It happens. If your want to avoid the possibility of capsizing your need to go to a bigger boat with a fixed keel. Blessings.
 

aquaman

Active Member
One last word about the "tenderness" issue. Now pre-Capri days I used to rent Barnett 14's and rip around on a small lake. Barnett has a pretty flat hard chine hull (like a Sunfish) so you get that stable feel when compared to the roundish hull of Capri. Likewise the same for the American 14.5 that I sailed with a friend.

With the Barnett type hull you feel more stable but remember than when it has had enough it will just pop over like a rubber band stretched till it breaks. Capri heels with wind changes and between rudder, ballast, and sheet handling can gracefully handle the blasts. Also helps to get a few seasons under your belt, then everything becomes instinctive. Even when I've screwed something up that could cause capsize if you let the boat go where it wants and hop around in the cockpit correctly it will forgive. Also should mention that reef points in the main are golden! I've handled some dicey conditions with that up only.

The American 14.5 felt more stable but the drawback is more drag. Capri accelerates nicely when wind picks up, feels like you're driving a Ferrari while the American was more like a truck.

Mine's a 1986 Mod 1 which was bought cheap and I've put a fair amount of time and $$ in to make her something special. Plan on keeping it for years to come.

Cheers!
 

Calm Seas

New Member
I ran across this thread searching "Precision 165" which as of now is what I think I want to buy in distant, but not too distant, future. My story: I'm now in my 60s, a life-long surfer, and dabbled in sailing. I had friends with a rental concession back in the 80s who taught me elementary wind theory and let me windsurf whenever I wanted. In the 90s I had a used sunfish and had fun for a while. I'll rent a Hobie cat every now and then. I recently made the plunge back into sailing buying a 8 ft wooden dinghy with a lug sail (65 lbs and fits in my van, no trailer!) as a means to have a life while locked down by our governor and "socially distancing." I live in Delaware. we have very shallow protected bays with the wide open Atlantic on the other side of barrier islands. I plan to spend a few years getting my sailing chops down enough so my wife trusts me enough to go for a ride with me. I thought I wanted a Catalina 22 or a West Wight Potter - I want a little cabin when I finally get a "real" boat but got talking to some local sailors and they have me thinking hard about the Precision 165. As a lifelong waterman I have endless respect for the water and the wind. My instinct is to go small so to be well in control and to navigate the very shallow protected bays. Would the Precision 165 have the stability I want? Are there any other boats in this particular niche? I've heard many many things about the Catalina 22. they say the main thing is PARTS are easily available which is why they're so popular so I want to avoid an affordable used boat I can't find parts for to repair and maintain. But with our shallow waters and respect for (avoidance of) open ocean, I fear it would, even at 22 feet, be too big and the Precision seems to be the "Goldy Locks" just right craft for me when I get my chops tight.
 

DeereJ18

New Member
I ran across this thread searching "Precision 165" which as of now is what I think I want to buy in distant, but not too distant, future. My story: I'm now in my 60s, a life-long surfer, and dabbled in sailing. I had friends with a rental concession back in the 80s who taught me elementary wind theory and let me windsurf whenever I wanted. In the 90s I had a used sunfish and had fun for a while. I'll rent a Hobie cat every now and then. I recently made the plunge back into sailing buying a 8 ft wooden dinghy with a lug sail (65 lbs and fits in my van, no trailer!) as a means to have a life while locked down by our governor and "socially distancing." I live in Delaware. we have very shallow protected bays with the wide open Atlantic on the other side of barrier islands. I plan to spend a few years getting my sailing chops down enough so my wife trusts me enough to go for a ride with me. I thought I wanted a Catalina 22 or a West Wight Potter - I want a little cabin when I finally get a "real" boat but got talking to some local sailors and they have me thinking hard about the Precision 165. As a lifelong waterman I have endless respect for the water and the wind. My instinct is to go small so to be well in control and to navigate the very shallow protected bays. Would the Precision 165 have the stability I want? Are there any other boats in this particular niche? I've heard many many things about the Catalina 22. they say the main thing is PARTS are easily available which is why they're so popular so I want to avoid an affordable used boat I can't find parts for to repair and maintain. But with our shallow waters and respect for (avoidance of) open ocean, I fear it would, even at 22 feet, be too big and the Precision seems to be the "Goldy Locks" just right craft for me when I get my chops tight.
I currently own a 1999 Catalina Capri 14.2 . Believe it or not, I have also been looking for a P165. As of last week I almost went to North Carolina to buy this one> 2006 Precision Boat Works 165 sailboat for sale in North Carolina

I love my Catalina Capri 14.2, but I would love to have something a bit bigger with a cabin. I ended up having a friend talk me out of the P165. I am glad he did. I do most of my sailing on inland lakes here in Michigan, with every now and then going out on the Great Lakes. The P165 is a great boat for what it is, however the 2.1ft draft that it requires due to its keel is a big issue for me as I like the ability to beach my sailboats (my Capri 14.2 has a raisable centerboard). The P165 is impressively stable for what it is, but keep in mind that a 16ft boat can only be so stable. I can confidently say first hand that the Precision 18 is much much more stable than the Precision 165. Just know that the P18 has a backstay and it can take a bit longer to setup at a boat launch. The cabin in a P165 is small as well. Much more comfortable cabin in a P18. I have considered a Catalina 18 Capri, but it has a wing keel, so I am unable to beach it.

Another reason that I'm glad I didn't pick up that P165 last week is because around a month ago I called Precision Boat Works. I called them for information on part availability (I know that with sailboats it really isnt a big deal but im the kind of guy that always wants parts available). The company has stopped the production of boats as the builders have retired. They are, however, still selling parts. I personally do not like the insecurity of a company selling parts, but no longer producing boats. The value of these boats probably dropped since they no longer produce boats too.

I am currently looking for a Catalina 22 (1990 or newer) due to the fact that the company is still in business and because I love my current Catalina Capri 14.2 . I have considered the McGregor 22 and 26, but they just dont seem like the right boat for me for some reason. And after reading some build quality issues about the McGregor, I got steered away. I also previously looked at a West Wight Potter 15, but didnt end up buying it because it sailed so slowly and the cabin was far too small. I would be interested in a West Wight Potter 19, but I personally think they look ugly.

I have been interested in a few Hunters. Specifically the Hunter 19. Ive read online that this boat has poor sailing characteristics. I would be interested in a Hunter 22 or Hunter 26 possibly.

Ultimately, it is going to take time for me to find the right boat. I am looking on Craigslist daily for a post-1990 Catalina 22.

Hopefully this wasn't a waste of time for you to read!
-Jarrett
 

KansasPaul

New Member
I ran across this thread searching "Precision 165" which as of now is what I think I want to buy in distant, but not too distant, future. My story: I'm now in my 60s, a life-long surfer, and dabbled in sailing. I had friends with a rental concession back in the 80s who taught me elementary wind theory and let me windsurf whenever I wanted. In the 90s I had a used sunfish and had fun for a while. I'll rent a Hobie cat every now and then. I recently made the plunge back into sailing buying a 8 ft wooden dinghy with a lug sail (65 lbs and fits in my van, no trailer!) as a means to have a life while locked down by our governor and "socially distancing." I live in Delaware. we have very shallow protected bays with the wide open Atlantic on the other side of barrier islands. I plan to spend a few years getting my sailing chops down enough so my wife trusts me enough to go for a ride with me. I thought I wanted a Catalina 22 or a West Wight Potter - I want a little cabin when I finally get a "real" boat but got talking to some local sailors and they have me thinking hard about the Precision 165. As a lifelong waterman I have endless respect for the water and the wind. My instinct is to go small so to be well in control and to navigate the very shallow protected bays. Would the Precision 165 have the stability I want? Are there any other boats in this particular niche? I've heard many many things about the Catalina 22. they say the main thing is PARTS are easily available which is why they're so popular so I want to avoid an affordable used boat I can't find parts for to repair and maintain. But with our shallow waters and respect for (avoidance of) open ocean, I fear it would, even at 22 feet, be too big and the Precision seems to be the "Goldy Locks" just right craft for me when I get my chops tight.
I think that the first action is to actually look at a P165 in person. That may be tough depending on where you live. Precision Boat Works was located in Florida and as such the largest availability appears to be in the Southeast US - not to say that the boats can't be found in other locations but I don't see many available here in the Midwest. If you research Precision Boats you will find that all of their boats were designed by a naval architect. I recently bought a P-15 and the build quality is excellent. The P-165 is on my "short list" - I don't want a large boat, I want a keelboat that is easy to "trailer sail" and I prefer not to have a backstay. I also want something with decent sailing characteristics. There are a couple of youtube videos posted by an owner of a P165 who sails off the California coast. He discusses the boat and some of the changes he has made since purchasing it. I feel its worth checking out.

Blessings,

Paul
 
I am sailing a 2015 Catalina 14.2K, Mod 3 14.2 with a 2 foot, 200 lb keel, and have found it to give me the stability of a keel boat, the rigging of a larger boat, and lots of comfort sailing single handed in most any conditions. The jiffy reefing system meets my needs if the wind kicks up and the roller furling jib makes it easy to douse the jib and sail with only the main, sometimes reefed. I fitted it with a topping lift for the boom, and the jib reefing is a single line system patterned off of the Harken system. Although I keep the boat at home at my dock on a large fresh water lake May through October, it is easy enough to launch and retrieve using a chain/rope line which attaches to my trailer hitch and allows me to let the trailer basically sink on the ramps. The boat and trailer are light enough that handling them at launch is not a problem. My more recent history is that I sailed a Tanzer 22 keel/centerboard model for well over twenty years, followed by a Cape Dory Typhoon ( 19 ft), and wanted a smaller dinghy type boat to transition to as I became older (73) but wanted to keep the feel of a fully rigged boat easy to handle but stable enough not to worry about turtling, etc. The Catalina 14.2K has been everything I wanted and should keep me sailing for many more years, health permitting. And, since it is still in production I was not as concerned about replacement parts etc. Good sailing wishes from VA/NC Kerr Lake (50,000 acres, limited development, 800 miles shoreline) which is essentially the old Roanoke River which was dammed for hydro and flood control.
 

Bob Paine

New Member
Perhaps one solution is to add outriggers to the boat (see by googling my "snipe hobie trimaran"). There was a post in the smalltrimarans.com blog from a sailor who capsized his 14.2 backwards and freaked out his wife and kid. He put this in the comment section under my posting of the "snipe hobie trimaran". He commented that he was going to build the outriggers and attach them. In essence, this allows a single sailor to sail a two man dinghy in almost any conditions. The Snipe sail plan has plenty of power to move the entire rig, and there are several days here in Florida where I sail solo with a reef in the main and no jib and have more than enough power. I also got tired of having the whole police force and fire department on my lake bank when some "so called" good Samaritan calls 911 as soon as I capsized. As most of you know, they are quick to stand on the end of the dock and yell "do you need help"; however, I have yet to have anyone jump in yet. I have even been caught in a squall and this little beast held her own. In essence, capsizing is not an issue. The rig may break apart long before this boat will ever capsize.
 

Bob Paine

New Member
The first thing that occurs to any nonsailing person, when looking at sailboat underway, is that it is potentially risky. I have friends who will never join me for a sailboat ride because of the fear that the boat will capsize and toss them into the drink. As sailors, we understand the risks and mitigate the danger by adjusting the controls and balancing the forces. So the fact that one must be ready to let the sheets out, or shift their weight, is all part of sailing experience. There is a point; however, when the continuous application of control seriously suppresses the pleasure of the sailing experience. Sailboat characteristics that reward the racing sailor with speed, may be an annoyance to the casual daysailor out for a simple pleasant cruise.

My point is this:

The 14.2's hull, despite its width, does not have a hard enough chine to provide fundamental stability. Passenger weight shift is more critical than most sailboats, but you get speed.

The sail plan is too big for a boat with a 340 lb. weight and a hull of this configuration, but its good in light air.

The standing rigging is too heavy and may make it top heavy in a turn, but its as tough as nails.

The rudder is too small to afford quick, and sometimes critical, directional compensation, but it is light and easy to turn.

You can add a larger rudder, and reduce the sail plan, (as members of our forum suggest), but you can't do anything about the hull or the standing rigging.

In short, if you want to have a great day-sail and a relaxing afternoon, you better get a different boat. I learned the hard way. I bought a brand new 2007 14.2 only to find how sensitive the boat really is. I did not believe that Catalina would sell a boat like this and market it as a "Family Daysailer". I tried to contact the factory about my concerns three (3) times without any response. Odd, because when I had questions about a possible purchase, they contacted me in a matter of hours. Fact is, they know about the capsize ratio being poor, (3.58). Why do you think they introduced the fixed weighted bulb keel model? Even that did not do much good.

I am so convinced of this problem that I am selling my new boat. If you think otherwise, and are looking for a new 14.2, then check the classified section of this website. I can give you a great deal on aboat that will keep you busy.

Mooseman
As someone who has several times experienced the thrill of capsizing (and the frustration - with the whole fire department and police squad on my lake bank when some "so called" good samaritan calls 911 before I have time to right her) I agree that it may be misleading and not entirely prudent to be advertising this dinghy, or for that fact any 15' centerboard or daggerboard dinghy, as a family sailing vessel. However, in light of the post by Kerrkat 14.2 extolling the virtues and safety of the 14.2 keel model (where he has sailed it for several thousand acres with and without a reef), do you have any evidence to support your statement that the 14.2 keel model is also unsafe -or was that remark just part of your frustration with Catalina?
 
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