Carbon Tiller
- Thread starter thor
- Start date
Merrily
Administrator
Yes, Thor, there are several great threads on making a carbon tiller from old golf clubs and such. On the bar find the word Search and click on it. I put in the terms -- golf clubs carbon -- and got about eight hits. Good luck with it!
Merrily
Administrator
Yes, Thor, I was thinking of tiller extensions. I don't know if there is anything on making tillers. You have not incorrectly assumed. 
Hi Merrily
Thanks for that but I am assuming that you are talking about 'tiller extensions' is that right? I have tried to not assume too much these days cause generally it makes an ASS of U and ME
Anyway that gets me thinking about upgrading to a carbon tiller extension!!
I made a fibre glass tiller as a costing/trial/model for a carbon option.
it was balsa cored, wrapped in glass/carbon, then peel ply then clamped tightly between straight edges to meet the rules requirement. The tiller head end was built up with balsa them skinned with glass and filled to shape.
If you can get the carbon cheap enough, it would be something worthwhile. The wrap/balsa method eliminates moulds/mandrels/vacuum bagging etc and is as easy as rolling up a 12" x 3" roll of cloth.
If you have to pay retail for the carbon it works out about the same as buying one from a dealer.
The hockey stick idea was for tillers. Have a search for that. Sounds the cheapest.
it was balsa cored, wrapped in glass/carbon, then peel ply then clamped tightly between straight edges to meet the rules requirement. The tiller head end was built up with balsa them skinned with glass and filled to shape.
If you can get the carbon cheap enough, it would be something worthwhile. The wrap/balsa method eliminates moulds/mandrels/vacuum bagging etc and is as easy as rolling up a 12" x 3" roll of cloth.
If you have to pay retail for the carbon it works out about the same as buying one from a dealer.
The hockey stick idea was for tillers. Have a search for that. Sounds the cheapest.
LooserLu
LooserLu
Hi Merrily, there is some information.
Look this thread (my posts No 3 and 7 f.e.), please.
http://www.laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=3078
Ciao
LooserLu
Clive Humphris
ILCA Technical
I have done a bit of work on this and would like to relate my experience so far.
I started first by working out the key parameters for a good Laser tiller design. I decided on three :-
1. Low height at traveller – really the key feature – Roosters website has a really good explanation of why. See :- http://www.roostersailing.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=ltill&Store_Code=1
2. High stiffness vertically such that the vertical force imposed by the traveller does not deflect the tiller downwards to the point that the underside of the tiller touches the traveller cleat. The higher the stiffness the lower the clearance to the cleat can be set and hence a lower height at the cleat.
3. Low weight.
I then measured two commercially available tillers I found on boats at my local club and also the standard aluminium component.
Std Aluminium_______60-Height at traveller(mm) 1.48-stiffness(N/mm) 360 Weight(gm)
Commercial 1________42_____________________1.85_______________370
Commercial 2________40_____________________1.59_______________383
Please note these are one off measurements and are thus indicative only.
I then did some design work, optimising the geometry and Carbon layup and decided on some targets that I thought would be achievable:-
Target______________27____________________>1.48 _____________<300
I made a male plug to this design, made some female moulds and pressure bladder and made 2 prototypes:-
Prototype 1__________27 ____________________1.48_______________220
Prototype 2__________27 ____________________2.12_______________240
I have completed testing of these across the last Australian summer season and have had no breakages and am, at this stage, pretty happy with the design.
Next steps, when I can find a bit more time, are to further refine the design and finish, and possibly produce some more for sale.
I started first by working out the key parameters for a good Laser tiller design. I decided on three :-
1. Low height at traveller – really the key feature – Roosters website has a really good explanation of why. See :- http://www.roostersailing.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=ltill&Store_Code=1
2. High stiffness vertically such that the vertical force imposed by the traveller does not deflect the tiller downwards to the point that the underside of the tiller touches the traveller cleat. The higher the stiffness the lower the clearance to the cleat can be set and hence a lower height at the cleat.
3. Low weight.
I then measured two commercially available tillers I found on boats at my local club and also the standard aluminium component.
Std Aluminium_______60-Height at traveller(mm) 1.48-stiffness(N/mm) 360 Weight(gm)
Commercial 1________42_____________________1.85_______________370
Commercial 2________40_____________________1.59_______________383
Please note these are one off measurements and are thus indicative only.
I then did some design work, optimising the geometry and Carbon layup and decided on some targets that I thought would be achievable:-
Target______________27____________________>1.48 _____________<300
I made a male plug to this design, made some female moulds and pressure bladder and made 2 prototypes:-
Prototype 1__________27 ____________________1.48_______________220
Prototype 2__________27 ____________________2.12_______________240
I have completed testing of these across the last Australian summer season and have had no breakages and am, at this stage, pretty happy with the design.
Next steps, when I can find a bit more time, are to further refine the design and finish, and possibly produce some more for sale.
CHumphreys
New Member
my friend has a realllly sick one thats wayy lighter than my acme. ill see if i can get a picture of it tomorrow. it CAN be done. his was made from scratch.
its an oval carbon tube, with the top end extending flat to attach the tiller extension. he might have used an old acme end piece (where you stick it in the rudder), but i would bet he made that too. i'll ask him about it tomorrow.
for the wear plate, he just put a strip of kevlar (which he is about to replace after about two years of wear)
its an oval carbon tube, with the top end extending flat to attach the tiller extension. he might have used an old acme end piece (where you stick it in the rudder), but i would bet he made that too. i'll ask him about it tomorrow.
for the wear plate, he just put a strip of kevlar (which he is about to replace after about two years of wear)
Clive that sounds really interesting. If you dont mind you you be able to post some pics or send some through? I am really interested in the whole construction process and how much it cost you in the end. Any chance when you get a chance to go into detail about the shape and sizes and all that interesting stuff. Inparticular how you got the shape of the end of the tiller to go into the rudder box and the angle. To me this seems to be the critical part of the whole process as if you stuff up the angle it is a lot of re-work. I also like your methodology behind your design.. I take it your from an engineering backgroud?!?!?!
Thanks
Thor
Thanks
Thor
Clive Humphris
ILCA Technical
Thor,
Thanks for your interest. Attached is a picture of proto 2 and the male plug (white). The shape is optimised around the various constraints of the geometry of the boat and the rules. The rules stipulate that the top of the tiller must be " straight along its topmost edge between a point 30mm in front of the forward edge of the rudder head and the cockpit end of the tiller". The rest is designed to give adequate clearance to the cleat and deck while minimising the height at the traveller. For instance I allow a nominal clearance to the cleat of 20mm which reduces to about 15mm with the sort of traveller tension I apply and the vertical stiffnes I have been able to achieve. The result, is I believe, about the best you can achieve within the constraint of adequate stiffness and robustness. I have spent more than the cost of a commercial tiller in materials, but have enough material to produce about 5 off. The exercise has been largely about just rising to the challenge of producing a better product. There are tens of hours involved in producing plugs and moulds before you can even start moulding. So, depending on how you cost your own time, there needs to be more in it for you than just "getting a cheaper tiller".
I am an automotive engineer with experience in structural optimisation, aerodynamics and product design and development. I have also been part of a solar race car design team where I gained experience with carbon structures.
I treat this as a hobby project that progresses when I find some spare time!
Thanks for your interest. Attached is a picture of proto 2 and the male plug (white). The shape is optimised around the various constraints of the geometry of the boat and the rules. The rules stipulate that the top of the tiller must be " straight along its topmost edge between a point 30mm in front of the forward edge of the rudder head and the cockpit end of the tiller". The rest is designed to give adequate clearance to the cleat and deck while minimising the height at the traveller. For instance I allow a nominal clearance to the cleat of 20mm which reduces to about 15mm with the sort of traveller tension I apply and the vertical stiffnes I have been able to achieve. The result, is I believe, about the best you can achieve within the constraint of adequate stiffness and robustness. I have spent more than the cost of a commercial tiller in materials, but have enough material to produce about 5 off. The exercise has been largely about just rising to the challenge of producing a better product. There are tens of hours involved in producing plugs and moulds before you can even start moulding. So, depending on how you cost your own time, there needs to be more in it for you than just "getting a cheaper tiller".
I am an automotive engineer with experience in structural optimisation, aerodynamics and product design and development. I have also been part of a solar race car design team where I gained experience with carbon structures.
I treat this as a hobby project that progresses when I find some spare time!
Attachments
R
Ross B
Guest
man, from that angle its a dead ringer for an Optiparts tiller
Really?? From this link to me it doesnt look anything like it??
http://www.optiparts.com/products/WDlaser.asp
Clive,
Thanks for that. Great pic and it looks like the final product is top stuff. I know you have done all the hard work, research and a lot of man hours but do you mind if I pester you more about the cost and about the whole process? I am very green when it comes to carbon and exotic materials. I have however spent my entire childhood covered in fibreglass (I was lucky enough to learn how to sand fibreglass from a young age!) or resin.
So I am deadset keen to have a go at this and have a few mates that would also be keen to be involved with the outcome of the venture a personalised carbon tiller for each of us. Its just that we lack on the 'know how'.
Any more help or info you provide is most appreciated!
Cheers
Thor
http://www.optiparts.com/products/WDlaser.asp
Clive,
Thanks for that. Great pic and it looks like the final product is top stuff. I know you have done all the hard work, research and a lot of man hours but do you mind if I pester you more about the cost and about the whole process? I am very green when it comes to carbon and exotic materials. I have however spent my entire childhood covered in fibreglass (I was lucky enough to learn how to sand fibreglass from a young age!) or resin.
So I am deadset keen to have a go at this and have a few mates that would also be keen to be involved with the outcome of the venture a personalised carbon tiller for each of us. Its just that we lack on the 'know how'.
Any more help or info you provide is most appreciated!
Cheers
Thor
R
Ross B
Guest
I beleive that is a "Win Design" tiller
I have seen others branded "Optiparts" that look very similar to yours
could just be an older model I'm thinking of
I have seen others branded "Optiparts" that look very similar to yours
could just be an older model I'm thinking of
bel120343
New Member
the first generation optiparts carbon tillers looked like that, they werent very strong en stiff, that and because they work together with win design, they make a diferent tiller now.
And so what if it looks like an other kind of tiller, as long if yours is better and it's real cool that you made one.
I once made as a project at school a wood-epoxy Vaurien, wel know boat here in europe, so i can relate how fun it is to be working long at something, and when you see the result, it's a great feeling.
wanted to mak my one extension once, butt the prices are to expensive for carbon here in belgium. sticking with light wood-epoxy rudders for 420's then
And so what if it looks like an other kind of tiller, as long if yours is better and it's real cool that you made one.
I once made as a project at school a wood-epoxy Vaurien, wel know boat here in europe, so i can relate how fun it is to be working long at something, and when you see the result, it's a great feeling.
wanted to mak my one extension once, butt the prices are to expensive for carbon here in belgium. sticking with light wood-epoxy rudders for 420's then
R
Ross B
Guest
just sayin it looked like an OP
but either way good on ya
but either way good on ya
jamesfreedman
New Member
Looks great to me... I wonder what the cost was?
Clive Humphris
ILCA Technical
The cost of carbon, resin and kevlar patches is less than $50 - there is not much! around 260gm. The real problem is the material comes by the metre so you end up buying enough to make several tillers. The real cost is in the design and labour for making the plug and moulds. For me that was around 40 hrs. Time for making pre pregs, assembly, moulding, breaking out , deflashing, and fitting the tiller joint plate, steel rub plate and cleat for each tiller is about 2 hours. So, as i said, it really depends how you cost your own time.
Clive Humphris
ILCA Technical
Just looking at some prior posts now. My design is not a WIN design copy. It was designed from first principles to my own criteria. It is not in my benchmark set so would be interested in getting some data from one if anyone is interested in getting me some data on it. If you have one and are interested, send me an email and we can discuss what is required. Thanks.