Traveller Cam Cleat / Hikingstrap Shockcord

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by LooserLu, Oct 26, 2009.

  1. Bungo Pete

    Bungo Pete Member

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    To which I will respond with two words, and they won't be "Bottle Port."

    I find it incredulous that something so inocuous yet which solves a simple problem and again, does not in any way enhance, alter or change the performance of the boat would be thought of as illegal. It would seem to me that if a rank amateur like myself could find out that Clam Cleat makes a version if the so-called "class legal" cleat with a hole in it, then Laser Performance or the esteemed members of the ILCA Rules Committee could do the same and take more of a proactive approach to this sort of thing. Otherwise, they will end up like NASCAR.

    Nevertheless, I will submit a pic of the offending infernal device to the powers-that-be for their assessment. Regardless of the outcome, I will be putting one on my boat.
     
  2. Mattcm

    Mattcm Member

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  3. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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  4. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Hi again,
    today was the last chance for me in this year to test a new setup for the shock cord of the hiking strap. Our Boats go in hibernation next Saturday.

    In attachment I did add some photos of today.

    I would like to take the set up with the tape in front of the Camcleat (Photo 2).

    Is it permitted to fix the shock cord at the traveller line ( like I already did mentio at my answer to "stick" above)? -> Photo 3

    To the photos: This is one of our old club Lasers you see and her hiking strap is to long, I know. Next season I use a different hull with a shorter hiking strap. So, at the photos you see a not optimal hiking strap adjustment. I did add the adjustment only for demonstration.

    BTW: Is it permitted (class legal) to fix the inhaul shock cord, like it is to be seen at the photo 4?


    Thanks


    LooserLu
     

    Attached Files:

  5. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Photo 1: Illegal, you can do either the eyelets or the cleat, but not both.
    Photo 2: Possibly illegal
    Photo 3: Illegal
    Photo 4: Legal, it's a recent new interpretation

    Mattcm as mentioned above, those cleats are illegal. You can only use the identical cleat to what comes supplied with the boat or is currently supplied with the boat (i.e. the original cleats were plastic and they can be replaced by the metal cleats).
     
  6. Bungo Pete

    Bungo Pete Member

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    Such Drivel. I obviously can't say for sure, but what if this Vanguard cleat came w/ a vanguard era boat? How could it be illegal?

    If you go to Mattcm's site you will notice that he drilled holes in his boom endcap to make sure water drains out after a knock down. Now according to the twisted logic applied to things like this cleat and the bottle port, the evil perpetrator has changed the function of the end cap from an endcap to a drain. OH NO!!!!!!! We can't have that sort of innovation going on! Call out the guards! Man the Parapets!! Smite the scoundrel!!!:eek:
     
  7. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    Ditto. ;)
     
  8. Sean

    Sean Member

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    You could achieve the same result as photo2 by just terminating the shock cord at the fairleads. Running the shock cord up to the traveller cleat serves little purpose.

    Lu, your original photo is how your traveller should be set up. Ideally you could change the rope from a braided spectra one to a slippery core type rope.

    Nothing wrong with using thick shock cord but generally 3-5 mm is adequate.

    If I understand your problem it is that the shock cord causes the rope to ride up and get in the way. Lessen the tension on your shock cord and tighten your traveller rope.

    You dont need the shock cord to do anything more than hold the strap up so you can get your feet under easily.

    In regard to drilling out end caps on booms or changing cleats to ones that are slightly different models, why bother? Yes, your boom now drains better but it also fills up far quicker(maybe why changes like this are illegal). The same clam cleat design has been on the boat for 25+ years now and does the job.

    2 things to keep in mind when rigging a Laser:

    1. KISS. Keep it simple stupid. Self explanatory really, most people make their boats unnecessarily complicated.

    2. Unless you have a very good, well thought out and improved method of rigging your boat, set your boat up like the leading sailors do. If you have a lighter or simpler way of setting up the vang for e.g it will soon be adopted by others.
     
  9. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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  10. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Hi
    Okay, I understand, thanks Alan. Perhaps all the variations I did mention help others also, to not get a surprise at the next official measurement at a big event. For me it is new, that the way it is shown at photo 1 is not class legal. I got this idea from a photo of TLF (~2004) and it was said under the photo it is the way Steve Cockerill did lead the shock cord. I can imagine he was doing it illegal.

    Me would help to be permitted to tape the bungee, like shown on phtoto 2. I can't imagine, taping a bungee is not class legal.

    Ciao

    LooserLu

    @ Sean (You did post your reply meanwhile I was writing this reply. ;) )
    Thanks for your advises. In generally I admit to your thesis "kiss", but since 2001 things have changed a bit (f.e: Harken power vang, Harken power equipment for the vang and Cunningham/Outhaul and, many more). I do not want to discuss this here in each details. I only want to keep a simple solution to the pinching of the shock cord to the traveller line.
    The other (now obviously illegal) ways I did add, is: to show others, too, how better not to do it, to not make the same faults like me. Perhaps my photos are something for the ILCA Homepage at the "cheating" photo album ;)

    In future I take the smaller diameter and less tension for the shockcord, and lead the bungee the common (legal) way. Perhaps I add a small piece of tape like it is shown at photo 2 (If the measurers in future say "it is not permitted", it is easy to put the tape away).
    As shown on the last photos, I now use a "core type rope". I can't say what type it is, I got it from a pro.

    Additionally, I did already mention above, that I use a diferent hiking strap than shown on the last photos. I usually use the Zhik hikingstrap (I am not permitted in the moment to install it to a club Laser here), that is less in length (and weight) like the one that is to be seen on the last photos.
     
  11. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    Hi Alan,

    You are inconsistent here. You say photo 1 is illegal becase the cleat and fairleads are both being used then you say photo 2 is possibly legal but if you look you can see that the way the shockcord has been led is exactly the same as photo 1 just with some tape round it on the cockpit side of the cleat....

    Useful to know about photo 4 though, I may be having a fiddle with my inhaul shock cord as it does foul a little bit...

    Can you clarify please?

    Cheers,

    Paul
     
  12. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Do you mind sharing? I really can't be bothered replying to some posts here because of the poster's attitude.
     
  13. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Thanks for pulling me up. :)

    Photo 2 is illegal as it is set up because the shock cord runs through the eyelets and also utilisers the cleat. I had only noticed the tape, which I believe is possibly illegal.
     
  14. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    Thanks Alan :)

    In my opinion taping the shockcord as in photo 2 (but having it go straight to the strap legally) is more likely to make it 'pop' up on the cleat because of the increased tension.

    Just my opinion mind you.....
     
  15. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    From memory at the Terrigal Master Worlds in 2008, we did pull Steve up for something, but I can't remember what, I think we also got Tracy, but you'd need to ask him as my team measured 400 boats in 3 days.

    There is definite benefits of avoiding surprises, the ILCA website has a new measurer's area where Jean-Luc is trying to be pro-active with the whole measurement thing. When things come to intrepretations, you'll find some measurers will mention it and others won't, this is also probably the case even when there is no shades of grey. When measuring large numbers of boats, things will get missed on some boats.

    As for the tape, unless the specific rule says you can use tape, such as 14(d) for the centreboard, then it's covered by rule 24, whch specifies you can use it to secure shackle pins and clips, bind sheets, lines and rigging, the shockcord for the hiking strap does not meet any of these criteria.
     
  16. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Hi
    In this case I did understand your words of my photo 2, that with the tape. Of course, if photo 1 show an illegal way to lead the shock cord, it is illegal at photo 2, too.
    Well, it seems rule 24 would probably let open a big discussion. I do not want such discussions. (Such as: "Do I really construct a new fitting..."? / "Do I really "modify the function" of an exsisting fitting..."? / "Is a shock cord not even just a "line" / part of the "rigging", that I bind to secure to its place..."? / "In which way the tape makes the hull more fast?"... etc. ... etc. ... Although, if one says / defines: The gudgeons are "fittings", too (this is not explicit said in the class rules!) LP-Europe themself "modify" this fitting "upper gudgeon", because they now fix it "topside down" to the transom to give the rudder pintle a better lead. In my opinion (and viewing to this issue here): "illegal" .. but... Does Jean Luc ever would forbid the original builder to do something they like to change? I guess: No ...). So, finally there is no other "exit" for me than to not tape the shockcord, finally. So, I'm afraid it is better now go and join 49208's smiley to eat a big bag of "chips" today (salt or pepper? what do you prefer)....

    Cheers
    LooserLu
     
  17. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    And yet you have done so.

    No offense meant on my part. Just enjoying the show.
     
  18. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    No, I still ignored to post of the person who is merely trolling, but replied to those who were serious in their questions.
     
  19. Mattcm

    Mattcm Member

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    Just to point out if you haven't noticed, this isn't my site is a site that has featured on the forum before that I found some parts to be useful. As for that cleat, I thought it was legal as it is vanguard but thankyou Alan for correcting me.

    As far as I'm concerned, I do find a few rules silly but rules are rules. Relaxing rules leaves them open to exploitation and I think that if you don't like the system, there are other classes more expensive classes to join.
     
  20. Bungo Pete

    Bungo Pete Member

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    Alan, et al.
    It appears that my attempt at satire did not have the hoped for effect, And for that I apologize. In re-reading my post, I realized that I gave the impression that Alan's posts were not to be taken seriously, and that was certainly not my point. Again I am sorry for this and it will not happen again.

    At this juncture, I should point out that I am a club racer at best, yet I still use builder supplied hardware and a class legal sail. This is because I am a firm believer in the rules which are in place to protect the integrity of the class and in the one-design philosophy. My aim above was to point out the absurdity (IMHO) of applying these same regulations to items which have no performance enhancing effect whatsoever on the boat yet solve practical problems and otherwise enhance the experience of sailing a Laser. I fear this situation will stifle innovation, and I have seen parallels to it in the motor racing world.

    If there is no alternative to the rules as they stand and are applied, then perhaps there should be a quick approval protocol which can be used in cases like the Bottle Port or a Clam Cleat with a hole in it.
     

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