Traveller Cam Cleat / Hikingstrap Shockcord

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by LooserLu, Oct 26, 2009.

  1. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Hi

    The Summer sailing season for me now is over here and the frostbite series still didn't began now. It's a good time for me, to reviewing the past season for a few things to optimize at my Club Laser.

    Here in the moment I am thinking of a change of the Camcleat for the traveller. At the original cleat the hikingstrap shockcord do not hold well down to the deck and hinder the traveller line if the traveler line runs into the cleat (view photo in attachment, the red arrows there).

    I am not shure, if the lower both Camcleats (upper: original "Racing CL211 ...Mk1", meddle: older "Racing Junior MkII", lower: "Racing CL211 Mk2") at the 2nd photo are permitted by the actual ILCA rules to use. I prefer to change to the Camcleat in the meddle of the photo. It allows the traveler line to run more independent of the bungee for the hikingstrap at the Camcleat.

    Do the rules permit me the change to the "Racing Junior MkII" Camcleat? Your opinion please, thanks.

    Ciao
    LooserLu
     

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  2. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm interested in this, too. I have the same shock cord problem as Lu. I don't know if I'm enterprising enough to actually swap cleats though!
     
  3. Kratos

    Kratos Member

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    A lot of people use thicker shock cord make it go like that on purpose, if I'm not mistaken.

    When you pull the traveler tight, and then have the shock cord pull up like your first picture, it makes it that extra bit tighter and helps the cleat hold it in place. (The cleats slip to a certain degree.)

    But yeah, some people (myself included) do that on purpose.

    I see nothing wrong in your picture.
     
  4. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Rule 26(b) does not permit you to move away from the standard cleat. Further, if you think about why you're changing the cleat i.e to give you a bigger lip to prevent the shockcord riding up over the front of the cleat is changing the essential characteristics and shape of the cleat, hence prohibited by 26(a).
     
  5. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Thanks Alan, and I'm afraid, also rule 3-"a"-"vi" does not allow. "Sh.t".... Okay. I don't want to go into a useless discussion here, what is: "...identical size and shape...". I want to get a decent solution (and Merrily sure want to get such a solution, too) to sail with, in future.

    How do the "pros" do handle this? Or, do they "just don't care" and always pull the traveller to maximum tension before they go out and never change this duning their sailings?

    Is it perhaps permitted to tape the shockcord to the CamCleat in a way that the shockcord do not "cleat" the traveller line before the traveller line runs into the Camleat hole?
     
  6. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Guess I'm not understanding the need to worry about adjusting the trav. line. At least for racing there are just two settings, tight and super tight (the difference in line movement is less then 3 cm) and the shockcord doesn't impede the movement enough to cause problems adjusting it. It's pretty rare to adjust it while racing, at least in the areas I sail in.
     
  7. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Thanks. But exact, when loose a bit from super tight to tight the shockcord "pinches" the traveller line at my boat. This is, if one sails in gusty situations, where not always it is blowing constant, but sometimes strong and then, in longer periods, the wind is lower (typical lake sailing conditions, where I sail at.). Then I loose the t-line a few (those 3 cm), to make it easier for the t-block to move over the tiller if I roll-tack etc.
     
  8. Kratos

    Kratos Member

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    Lu, did you just completely miss my post?
     
  9. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Are you saying you have so much tension on the hiking strap shock cord that when the trav is eased, it's able to take up the tension on the traveller (in effect causing the trav to be tight again so your blocks have trouble clearing the tiller ) ?

    If that's the case, I would back off the tension in the shock cord

    What tiller shape are you using ?
     
  10. Kratos

    Kratos Member

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    Judging by his picture, I don't think he should loosen the shock cord.
     
  11. Zoophyte

    Zoophyte New Member

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    Hi Lu,

    Is it possible that the ridge of silicone (or 5200 or whatever the green arrow below is pointing to) is contributing to the issue of the bungy slipping off the cleat?

    As the bungy is only needed to hold the hiking strap away from the bottom of the cockpit I use quite a thin bungy that is not much higher, if at all, than the rear of the cleat (maybe 3mm). I also make sure that no silicone escapes out when replacing the cleat. As a result, I don't recall the bungy ever slipping off my cleat.

    Just a thought.
     

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  12. stick

    stick Member

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    a smaller diameter shock cord should help. after all it's only being used to suspend the hiking strap. also, a small bit of plastic tape wrapped on the bungie right where the bungie is wrapped around the cleat. this will reduce the friction from the slick traveller line.
    you just have to reduce the amount of bungie under the traveller. the current diameter of bungie looks a little overkill.
     
  13. Bungo Pete

    Bungo Pete Member

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    Hello Lu:

    I have experienced a similar situation. Below find a link to a page on the Clam Cleat website. This is the cleat I will be putting on my boat next spring. It is the same as the original, but has a hole which I think can be used for the shock cord.

    http://www.clamcleat.com/cleats/cleat_details.asp?theid2=98

    Hope this helps
     
  14. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    And you may find yourself being asked to remove it. This refers Bungo Pete's cleat (Rule 26(a) & (b)) and possibly Stick's tape, but a Jean Luc would need to see a picture of it to determine whether it's legal or not.
     
  15. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    I would say that maybe the shockcord in the pic is either:

    1) too tight
    2) too thick

    Haviing said that I have thick shock cord on my boat and do not suffer from the same problem so I reckon it is down to tension.

    You will never want that little tension on the traveller (I sail on a gusty, shifty gravel pit) or that much tension on the toestrap. remember all that shockcord is doing is lifting the strap up to make it easier to get your feet under it.

    Cheers,

    Paul
     
  16. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Hi all,
    thanks a lot, for the very much help. Am I permitted to say, I am not the only one that did had to think about this issue? ;)

    ----
    Shatty, I have read your reply but I first want to wait what others think. I'll keep your hint in mind, thanks.
    ---------
    @49208
    "Are you saying you have so much tension on the hiking strap shock cord that when the trav is eased, it's able to take up the tension on the traveller (in effect causing the trav to be tight again so your blocks have trouble clearing the tiller ) ?

    If that's the case, I would back off the tension in the shock cord

    What tiller shape are you using ?"

    Yes, the tension of the shock cord is high, perhaps to high, I guess.

    I use differnet carbon tillers, Greg. I am still testing, which one is the best personally for me ;) I sometimes use: ACME's Black diamond (I do not own it, but sometimes the club permits me to use theirs, no chance to by an own one here at GER in the moment, there is no dealer here for it), Lasers "oval" C-Tiller (identical with the one of Windesign/Optiparts, but my one is original of PSE), Lasers first C-Tiller (is not oval but has a circular diameter, it is very light and good in very low winds), the "Kiwi"tiller with the roller, made in NZL (as to be seen on the photo).

    Most problems I had with the oval C-tiller of PSE, altough it is the one I most like to use (it is my "VW beelte" under the C-tillers). The metal plate did fall off, 3 times in 3 times of sailing, in reason the blocks did hit to strong to the tiller there. To this I plan another TLF-thread in winter.
    ----------------------------------

    @Zoohyte

    "Is it possible that the ridge of silicone (or 5200 or whatever the green arrow below is pointing to) is contributing to the issue of the bungy slipping off the cleat?"

    Hmm, perhaps, but I did use other hulls this last summer, too. But there I have the same issue with the shockcord.
    ---------------------------
    @stick
    "a smaller diameter shock cord should help. after all it's only being used to suspend the hiking strap. also, a small bit of plastic tape wrapped on the bungie right where the bungie is wrapped around the cleat. this will reduce the friction from the slick traveller line. ..."

    Oh, yes, I guess I better try a smaller diameter in future. To use a small bit of tape is what I am thinking about, too, but is this class legal?

    Additional, my thoughts go to lead the (in future a smaller diameter but longer shockcord) around the triangle-edge (the edge nearest to the camcleat) of the traveller line (there where the small loop end / "halfknot" is).

    But is this permitted?

    (Additional I lead the shock cord, in the way Steve Cockerill do: through the eyes of the hikingstap-fixing at the rear wall of the cockpit)

    ---------------

    @ Bungo Pete

    "... http://www.clamcleat.com/cleats/clea....asp?theid2=98 ..."

    Oh, this is a nice Camcleat! But, I "feel": it is in the same way "not class legal", like my "Racing Junior MkII". Both do "change the essential shape" of the original Camcleat and rule "3 (a) vi" does not permit that (also Alans rule "26 (a)")

    Would it be successful to send an official offer for a permittion to change classlegal to such a Camcleat to Clive and the technical board of the ILCA? I guess the boat dosent gets more fast by this Camcleat and it is the same size of the original Camcleat (only the shape is a bit different). Perhaps Tracy keeps this in mind for the next votes for changes at the class rules.
    -------------------

    How ever, I gues I have to take a lower diameter of shock cord and a bit lower tension. and do test if it is better (for me) to lead the shockord through the eyes for the hiking strap. I let you know here, if this works for me or not.

    Again, thanks for all hints above

    Ciao
    LooserLu
     
  17. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Paul, thanks, if it is blowing strong in gusts constant and the periods of low winds are few, I agree.

    But, I guess we often sail in the same winds (they are only a few hours earlier at you, then at my pont more to the east on this line of latitude :)) ), don't you have this situations, too?

    If there are peroids of big tricky gusts where you have to hike hard and quick have to go in and out and out and in of the cockpit etc. Then one needs a super tight traveller. But, then there are larger periods where the wind lulls down. Then it is a need to ease the traveller, to allow the boom to stay more to the side, where you want to have it on an upwind course. If the traveller line is not to tight, in such situations, it is also easier for the blocks to get over the tiller druring a roll tack. If I pull the traveller line again, if the windforce rises up suddenly for the next big puffs that I see to come over the lake, the eased the traveller line doesn't run well through the Camcleat in reason the shock cord pinches it. I lose some concentration (for to separate the shock cord from the travellerline) that I better need for other things to do on the boat in such moments ( f.e. trim optimal the Cunningham control / outhaul control) to be prepared for the next fight with the tricky gusts... You understand? If I then have not pulled the traveller line early enough to "super tight", I later on nearly have no change to do it, while hikning out hard (mainsheet nearly block to block) to hold the boat flat and "steering out well the windshifts". It is "in contra production" then, to sail with a not super-tight traveller line but "block to block"(Sorry, it is not easy for me to translate into English such situations, I hope you understand in general, what I try to express.). That's why it is a need, to have separated decent, the shock cord and the traveller line.

    I have another idea additionally: to knot a small loop (a piece of low diameter dynema rope) to the bridge of the Camcleat and lead the shockord through this ... do the rules permit that ?

    Ciao
    LooserLu
     
  18. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Unfortunately the rules do not permit it. The rule 17(d) permits a single piece of shockcord and nothing else.

    I suspect that you're easing your traveller too far if you are experiencing this problem. While the shockcord will always ride under the traveller rope, it shouldn't be impacting on the traveller rope.

    For what it's worth I use 4 or 5 mm D12 rope for the traveller and 5mm shockcord. The traveller has a large bowline tied at one end and the rest of the rope is then feed through the fairleads and a half hitch used to tied around the original bowline and then the tail is feed through the cleat. The loop formed by the the half hitch and the fairleads is as tight as I can make it. For adjusting the traveller, you are probably just easing it at most by 10mm, but it goes from being tight to super tight. The shockcord for the hiking strap is also very tight.
     
  19. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Okay, I understand.

    See photo below (its the full photo of my first words in this thread). I use "FSE Wega 3000" rope, diameter 5 mm.

    Thanks
    LooserLu
     

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  20. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    I tend to tension the traveller very tight and then go out for a sail before the race. The only time I find I need to ease it is if the blocks will not go over the tiller without getting stuck.

    My traveller is nothing special rope wise just some 5mm pre-stretch I had floating around. It seems to work well with the new Harken traveller blocks because they fall across nicely but do not seem to creep like I have seen on the more 'slippery' ropes.

    The lake i sail on is so small that doing things like messing around with traveller tension will lose you a lot more than it will gain you. Best to concentrate on getting the shifts right and driving the boat ashard as you can.
     

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