Rule 69 in a club race

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by OliLaser, Jun 17, 2009.

  1. Kratos

    Kratos Member

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    I guess we'll agree to disagree then.

    People have to stop thinking that kids don't know swear words, that it will somehow damage them and cause them to start saying it all the time.

    I wonder if anyone scolded any of the Pittsburgh Penguins who swore when they were hoisting the Stanley Cup?

    There a few "F*** yeah!" and one or two "F***in' right!"

    That was on live TV and I'm sure there were a ton of families watching. I'm also sure no one cared.

    End ramble.
     
  2. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    (Begin ramble - again 'cos I feel strongly about this)
    I would disagree on the grounds that this is about sailing and not teaching people and enforcing good language. Maybe we should start getting protests for bad grammar. I go out to sail. I tend not to curse but on occasions I do and in the heat of the moment a bit of language does nobody any harm.

    I would also argue that banning bad language in Europe contravenes people's human rights. It effectively discriminates against certain types of disability (e.g. Tourette syndrome). (Maybe you have to live in Europe to get the "Human Rights" thing).

    And I know I'm getting stupid here, but so are people who start thinking others should be disqualified for something like uttering a F word. Try not to but keep life in balance and enjoy the sport, even if you do happen to overhear a little language. Get penalised for breaking the rules of sailing (and for Rule 69 is says GROSS). Don't start disqualifying people for their vocabulary - maybe try to discourage it but Rule 69 !! If somebody is OTT - well that applied to life, the person next to you on the train, etc. and has nothing to do with sailing.

    I really think if protest hearings started because somebody uttered a swear word at somebody else in frustration - I would give up the sport and it would have become just silly. Loads of other fun things to do where people can be themselves, relax and have fun.

    Ian
     
  3. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    Did I end up in Sailing Anarchy somehow?
    :confused:
     
  4. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    So, if you were a female and someone called you an
    "effing stupid c**t"
    during a regatta, that would be ok ?

    How about if you're the 10 year old opti sailor who is called the:
    "effing little pencil d**k"
    by a 13 yr old opti sailor ?

    What about verbal threatening with /or without swearing.
    "If I find you in the boat park, after this race I'll beat the bloody snot of you"
    Maybe funny if this is being said to you by some snot nosed pimply teenager and you are the 220 lb mixed martial arts champ, but what if it's the other way around ?
     
  5. Kratos

    Kratos Member

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    Those examples you gave are nowhere close to the context in which 'f***' was used in situation found in the opening post.

    They are also the extreme of the scenario. Basically, you used examples not completely pertinent to the thread.

    If I'm a MMA champ, what do I care what I say to someone, or someone says to me? If they want to get tough about it, I touch'em with the jab.

    How did that even come up? Wehn would you encounter a MMArtist on the race course?
     
  6. Kratos

    Kratos Member

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    So, because this thread deals with swearing, it somehow only belongs on SA?

    I'm sick of people saying that shit on here.

    "OMGZ, are I on Sailing Anarchy???"

    Oh wait, no. I'll make the 49857389 thread on roll tacking, the 4523456457 on sailing by the lee, the 76855345 thread on hiking pants...You get the idea.

    Stop with the Sailing Anarchy whining.
     
  7. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    I used examples in line with the comments by Ian as I quoted. As usual the thread drifted off the original poster's issue long ago, but I think it's important for everyone to look at how swearing can be seen as a non-issue and also as grounds for a rule 69 hearing.

    People also need to realize that not everyone shares the swearing or verbally intimidating person's viewpoint. What may seem like blowing off steam to them can be seen in a completely different context as my examples show.
     
  8. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    So, if you were that girl, (or perhaps another competitor who heard her being called that) would you consider filing a protest ?

    And why or why not ?
     
  9. Kratos

    Kratos Member

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    If I was another competitor, I would do nothing.

    If she wants to file a protest, I'm sure she will, but if she doesn't care enough to file a protest, why should I?

    I wouldn't anyway. Not my business, so I'm not getting involved.
     
  10. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Virtually everything is life is a continuum. You can always come up with something slightly worse (or slightly better) and all such "but what ifs" do is to discuss the position of the line. One thing you can say is that one example is "trivial" (e.g. saying f***) and something else is unacceple (e.g. "If I find you in the boat park, after this race I'll beat the bloody snot of you")and thus that the line is somewhere between the two. Exactly where will be different for different people. Coming up with "what ifs" does not really add anything as we can come up with such forever and never make progress.

    For example, "If I find you in the boat park, after this race I'll beat the bloody snot of you" is to my mind acceptable use of a swear word (bloody - hardly a desperately offensive word). It is not the language that is unacceptable but the direct threat.

    Maybe one needs to distinguish between swearing (bad language through e.g frustration) and abuse/threats. I personally think the examples you gave represent abuse - which to my mind is something different from swearing.

    As in many aspects in life we have to stand on our own two feet. It is a sad person who has to keep running to hide behind the rules every time somebody says something they don't like. You cannot legislate for every phrase in every situation and spoken tone that people might use. Common sense needs to prevail. Fortunately most sailors have plenty of common sense and just get on with life. We all say thing in the heat of the moment that on reflection we wish we hadn't - hence the going over to the person after the race, apologising and buying them a drink at the bar, etc.. What concerns me is when some rule makers sitting in an office (or some over zealous club officials) start to interpret rules in ways that go way beyond practicality, will at best be totally inconsistent and open to wild variations in implementation, etc.

    Insults says more about he person doing the insulting so most can just ignore them with a smile. Might not be ideal but life is like that (not always ideal but more fun if we make the best of it)

    Ian
     
  11. nateowens

    nateowens District 12

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    Hi Folks,

    Any debate of the rules should list the rule..

    "When a protest committee, from its own observation or a report received from any source, believes that a competitor may have committed a gross breach of a
    rule, good manners or sportsmanship, or may have brought the sport into disrepute, it may call a hearing. "

    Sailing is a pure sport. It should be you working with or against the wind, water and waves to win races. It is not an on the water pissing contest. It is an inherently different environment than the pub where we meet after the races. There is no place on a race course for anything but proper seamanship. Before a race you sign that you understand and will abide by the rules. Don't lie. If you lie, god kills a kitten.

    Cursing is not a good mannered course of action. It can bring the sport, your club, your sponsor, your boat or you into disrepute. It is clearly not allowed. Don't curse.

    On a more formalized point, the only entity that can protest breach of rule 69 is the race committee. A competitor may only make a recommendation to the race committee that a protest is filed.
     
  12. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    You have to consider the word GROSS in the rule. Is a curse in frustration a GROSS breach of the rules ? Its a question of degree. We do the sport to have fun so over enforcement of the rules will just stop it being fun whilst achieving nothing. I've been sailing (mainly racing) all my life; dinghy regattas, national championships, overseas, offshore, etc. and you might get an occasional incident you ignore after 30 seconds, but the vast majority of sailing is good natured (or people would not do it). We do not need to solve a problem that really does not exist. OK there might be an occasional curse - so what. We cope. I agree the rule is needed s there have been stories about quite disgraceful behaviour (punches being thrown etc.) - so I don't disagree with the rule, I just believe the GROSS bit is important.

    (On a technicality it is the Protest Committee who can invoke a Rule 69 hearing not the Race Committee - not a major point and not trying to be picky so please don't take my comment the wrong way. It is relevant because many club races don't have a protest committee until somebody protests - and thus the protest committee does not exist to observe or receive a report until a protest and nobody can protest under rule 69 ..... An interesting side effect of the rules ?).

    Ian
     
  13. Bungo Pete

    Bungo Pete Member

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    I must admit that I am a real novice when it comes to racing rules, protests etc. In my limited experience it seems that one need only indicate a protest, make a mental picture of what happened and where everything was, and move on. This is mostly what I have seen and encountered. Now this is certainly easier said than done, and I have without doubt done my share of fist pounding either at someone else’s maneuvers and/or at my own foolish mistakes (mostly the latter).

    However, it is my firm belief that the use of foul language in public is the surest sign of a weak mind; and I have instilled that in my children. I have also communicated this assertion to those who seem to think it a sign of maturity to use one word as an adjective, verb, interjection, noun, adverb, pronoun, imperative, or general metaphor for anything the least bit disagreeable. Therefore, if a person or committee wishes to invoke #69 or any other rule as a method of controlling this kind of boorishness, particularly at the club level, it is OK with me.

    Just my 2¢
     
  14. nateowens

    nateowens District 12

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    Hi Deimos,

    I thought about your comments and we have a great discussion going. Gross is a very subjective word. It's meaning is in the eye of the beholder. Imagine if other ISAF rules were as subjective. [i.e. rule 42]

    On the water we are fully responsible for abiding by the rules, policing ourselves and ensuring the safety of our boat and the fellow boats. If it becomes a question of how questionable the breach was then as a sailor you should simply not do it. Cursing, albeit a small infringement, does not change the unalienable fact that it is not allowed.

    ISAF takes an alleged infringement very seriously. Alleged cursing would more than likely not result in a disciplinary action. That does not make cursing less against the rule or less objectionable.

    When someone is fouled they have a decision and a right to protest. They can make that decision quickly and be in the right. When someone is fouled they have no right to curse. That is also a decision to make. There are far more acceptable and well mannered alternatives to cursing.
     
  15. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    I tend to take the attitude that it is more the intent than the words used that is important. Somebody using the F word in frustration is not a big deal. It is a question of bad language rather than anything else. Others might not like it but it is really unrelated to sailing. However, people can say all sorts of things using no swear words yet the intent might be ttally unacceptable.

    e.g. "Thank you for f******g messing up my race" (bad language but not really Gross misconduct)
    or e.g. "You can ruined my race you silly incompetent woman and I will in future make sure that ... - which is why we never trust female drivers" (more of a threat and intended insult as no bad language there - yet I would find this unacceptable).

    Probably other examples closer to "the line" and there will always be the grey area. But I certainly think we need to keep Protest Committees focusing on sailing and not taking forever penalising people because "they don't speak polite like wot we want them to". Some people tend to swear a lot, others don't and I'm happy to sail against both.

    Ian
     
  16. Bradley

    Bradley Administrator Staff Member

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    I realize this is a hot issue. I went back and undeleted most of the posts just replacing the f word with f***. I think this is an important discussion as I find myself in the same "heat of the moment" situations- especially on the water (and maybe, every once in a while, in the car ;) )

    So, what we need to do is determine where the line is. The hard part is the line is different for every person. However I think the word "Gross" in the rules means that a fleeting expletive in the heat of the moment would not be grounds for a protest.
     
  17. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    Are there auto-censor adjustments to handle this? I've been on other forums where people just type whatever they want, and the bad words are automatically replaced with something more benign. That way nobody gets offended, and you can usually figure out what word the offender originally used.
     
  18. Bradley

    Bradley Administrator Staff Member

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    There is an auto-filter, and I HAVE enabled it. I think this might be a good compromise for everyone involved. Thoughts?
     
  19. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    I'd say turn it on and try, it can always be turned off again.
    And thanks for restoring the posts
     
  20. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Obviously we all have our own opinions on what each of us find acceptable and not acceptable.

    It would appear that ISAF and the national bodies are are in effect saying with rules 2 and 69 are:
    "We want the game to be played fairly and we want EVERYONE to feel that the game was played fairly when it is over. If ANYONE feels it wasn't fair because of a competitor's actions, they have the right to point this out to a protest committee. The protest committee can then debate and decide if there is merit to this and hold a hearing and decide on a penalty - or- they can decide there is no merit to and do nothing to the results"

    In effect, the protest committee is going to do exactly what we are doing here, debate over what was said or done and decide if punishment is needed and if so, what it should be.

    To me then, I need to only look at some facts:
    1. Protest committees are made up of people. These people can have varying experience sitting on protest committees and knowledge of the rules. They can also have varying opinions on what is fair/not fair.
    2. There are existing cases where competitors have been penalized for swearing, verbal abuse, and physical abuse, both on the race course and in the boat park.

    Knowing that, I can then decide to avoid committing those actions and have no worries from those two rules
    -or-
    I can roll the dice and take a chance that my swearing or verbal/physical abuses will cause someone associated with the event to report me and at that point cause me to lose all control over my outcome in the race, event and possibly the participation in the sport for some period of time.
     

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