Rule 69 in a club race

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by OliLaser, Jun 17, 2009.

  1. OliLaser

    OliLaser Guest

    Was sailing last night on a keel boat another boat tacked in front of me and forced me to sail above closehauled within 3 boats and i was fetching. I told him protest and that i was above an f ing closehauled coure I also called him a big baby becasue he said rules 69 when i said the f word. to put things in perspective I am 18 and he is 45+ now I am protested under rule 69 for swearing ? any thoughts
     
  2. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    Happened to me. You gotta be careful, some people take the game faaaaar to seriously. Just brush it off, its a club race.
     
  3. LaserBill

    LaserBill Member

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    You are probably guilty of a R. 69 breach, depending on the norms of the club in which you were racing. I would go to the hearing and be honest about what you said, explain your frustration with the other boat having fouled you, apologize and be as nice as you can be. It should either get dismissed, or at worst I think you would get a warning. I don't see many other choices. Good luck.
     
  4. Eric

    Eric New Member

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    Nobody except a Protest Committee can initiate a protest under rule 69. However, you can be protested under rule 2, Fair Sailing, as swearing can, and often should, be considered verbal intimidation to gain an unfair advantage.

    Obviously, you should have just said "Protest!" then zipped it. You can expect to be hauled into "The Room", apologize, and accept a score of DNE. Your sincere apology will probably prevent the PC from initiating a rule 69 hearing.
     
  5. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    The Protest Committee can initiate a Rule 69 hearing also upon receiving a report of the alleged infraction; RRS 69.1(a).

    And please, don't brush the incident off, OliLaser; rather, try to learn from your 'mistake'.
     
  6. Kratos

    Kratos Member

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    Whatever man.

    You said it in the heat of the moment. My opinion is that unless that guy can honestly say he has never cursed at someone during a "heat of the moment" situation, he should just let it go.

    Mind you, you should have just hailed protest and then said nothing else.

    I wouldn't stress over it.

    Actually, you didn't even really swear at him. I mean, you did, but not really, you know? If all you said was: "I was above a f****** close hauled course" and not something like: "You're a f****** idiot", then yeah, he is being a pretty big baby.

    Just brush it off. He was probably looking for something to counter the fact that you were beating him and then hailed protest when he fouled you.

    By calling him a baby, you were only telling the truth.
     
  7. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    All sounds a bit OTT to me - I mean bringing in Rule 69 for a swear word.

    However, "Seems a pity he did not hear you properly as you said Fracking (bit like on Battlestar Galactica 'cos they cannot use the F word on prime time TV so use something that is not the F word but ...). If he cannot hear you properly then it is hardly your fault"

    In practice it sounds like the sort of threat somebody might make when they have done wrong and don't want to do a 720 and don't want to retire and so, by threatening you back with something more hope you will back down from your own protest. Basically trying to bully you out of pursuing it.

    I have only once had a protest committee invoke a rule 69 hearing against me and it gets kind of formal. The problem started when, after a collision, at the protest hearing the other boat skipper just lied about what happened at the mark. I did not accuse him of lying, but the protest committee decided one or other of us was lying and they considered that Rule 69 worthy (against both of us !!). They immediately adjourned the hearing. As the other skipper said there was a boat rounding outside both of us, the hearing was adjourned until the following week when the other skipper wanted to get the other boat crew in. Following week Rule 69 hearing started, witness crew called in, told it the way it happened (as I had been telling the Protest Committee i.e. they agreed that I had rights and other boat could and should have taken avoiding action) at which point the Protest Committee backed down, dropped the Rule 69 issues and decided to penalise us both for the original incident (despite the witness bearing out my own story). The "political" problems they faced was that the boat we had been hit by was a military boat (Royal Navy - we were in larger boats not Lasers) which meant that crew had several days paperwork whatever (same bureaucracy as e.g. running an aircraft carrier onto rocks). When somebody invokes Rule 69 against you it does get kind of worrying as the consequences of it being upheld can be quite severe. However, so are the requirements on the protest committee.

    If you've read my waffle and got this far, did:
    1. For a Rule 69 hearing the incident must involve GROSS breaks of rules, sportmanship, etc.
    2. The Protest Committee notfy you in writing of the Rule 69 action (they have to notify you promptly after they have received the report of an incident). Only a Protest Committee can call a hearing under Rule 69 - anybody can report an incident to the protest committee but they have to decide whether or not to call a hearing.

    Then, they can do nothing or warn you (which is a slapped wrist and does not even penalise you in the race - no disqualification, no time penalty) or invoke a penalty. If they invoke a penalty (e.g. disqualify you, ban you from races, etc.) they get into more work as, for any penalty at all they have to start notifying the National Authority about the incident and you get the right to appeal, etc., etc. (and what are the chances of that happening !!). That is how I have always understood Rule 69 anyway.

    Of course one should never swear at another competitor, or show any emotion that could be interpreted as being ..... but we live in the real world and it is a competitive sport and on occasions an inappropriate word might slip out. To the other helm I would say "If you can't stand the heat stay out of the fire". The other skipper in you have the incident with kind of annoys me as it is being so OTT. If the trend continues we will soon be getting protests "because he looked at me in a strange way" or "he shouted starboard in an aggressive manner" ...

    If it was me I would protest him for the incident (assuming he was in the wrong and did not do 720's and I could be bothered - which means by the end of the leg I would have forgotten about it all) and call his bluff about the Rule 69. When you sail incidents happen. Don't get wound-up about is as we do it for fun and getting in a stew about is makes it no fun.

    The aspect of getting people worried can also be a trick some competitive types may use to improve their results. On the water, if they start to get you thinking about a rule 69 protest, you will probably be going through what happened in your head, trying to remember the details of Rule 69, what the penalties might be, etc., etc. which means you are not thinking about the race which means you will quickly drop back through the fleet. On the water, when an incident happens (which it will), act if you must (e.g. 360/720) but then forget about it and get on with the race. Then after the race apologise, protest, fill in the insurance claim form whatever.

    Ian

    Oh, and if the Protest Committee do go through a rule 69 hearing I would change clubs. e.g. Boxing club and 45+ goes into the ring - objection; he tried to hit me, behaved in an aggressive manner, etc. There are bigger issues in the sport than even a club protest committee getting tangled up in rule 69 over a f word.
     
  8. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    You should ahve jumped on his boat , shoved him in the water and turned it the right direction....then stood for a bit pounding your chest and screaming" I am the man!!!."

    ...then simply stepped onto your own boat and sailed off screaming and jumping up and down.

    if sailors don't soon learn to do stuff like that, we will never be as popular as the WWF.

    Oh yeah..get a spandex costume and a manager in a tastless suit before your go to that hearing
     
  9. vtgent49

    vtgent49 Member

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    69 doesn't apply, IMHO. Rule 2 is a stretch, since the applicable Appeal is about a 30+ adult intimidating a 16 or so year old, not the opposite.

    Did you say Protest, then file? If not, you really screwed up. Assuming he fouled you, not fileing tends to look bad. In addition, any trip to the ROOM is a 50-50 deal, no matter how it actually went on the water. Ask any experience sailor.

    Procedures matter, such as the "P" word, flag if over 19', etc. Filing under the wrong rule, such as 69, doesn't exonerate anyone, as I recall. Any valid hearing opens the parties to whatever rule may eventually apply. But, 17+ "F" words, but no "P" words, and you don't have a valid protest!

    "F" words to a 45 yr old American male? Well, not too bad. To a Brit? Probably less. To a boat full of kids, owned by a 45 yr. old? Hmmmm....

    Did he do circles? Then protest? If so, then it's over, I'd say.

    Otherwise, get used to close lee bows at the WM or whatever. The new 3 Boat rule just makes the whole game a bit more vague than it was.

    BTW, the "F" word doesn't appear in the rule book, and is seriously discouraged in College racing, and above. So, lose it. I personally love throwing Rule numbers out. That always get's them thinking, usually enough to let me roll them and be gone.

    Also, when you get a chance to do some beer can PHRF race on a keel boat, then I'd assume the other boat......
     
  10. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Whagt s this F word?
    Freedom?
    Foul?
    Fantastic?
    Flame?
    Figure?
    Fall?
    Fling?

    So may onptions!!!

    I think anybody who uses the term F word has serious mental problem.

    I believe the word you describe is a slang word for to botch or bungle and is often used with up.

    it is also a great word extender, modifier, and etc.

    Somebody needs to grow up and it isn;'t the young guy.

    Certainly teh knucklehead on teh boat got cussed out. he fouled and ruined somebody else's race.

    UH...foul language?? When else do you sue it but when somebody FOULS???

    There is a reason they call it sailor language!!
     
  11. vtgent49

    vtgent49 Member

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    I think anybody who uses the term F word has serious mental problem.

    lol, well, the "F" word that I referred to was certainly not "Fred"!

    My point was, and it may have been too subtle, that unless the "P" word is used, meaning "PROTEST", then no future protest is possible, due to limitations on the procedures of protesting under the rules. Specifically, the word PROTEST is required, independent of whatever other words may have been used.

    It's interesting that you can point out my lack of using the word F***, without using the word F***. Well done, "F"red. :)

    Al Russell
    182797
     
  12. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    There has been at least one competitor that has been given a 2 year ban for using the F word in the context of "get that F boat out of my way" to a judge boat which was preventing the competitor from tacking.

    That said, only a protest committee can lodge a Rule 69 protest, but they can initiate that upon information provided to them. So the protest by the competitor is invalid, but that does not prevent the protest committee from initating their own protest. It also appears that you failed to lodge a valid protest for the sailing incident, which the protest committee can also initate a protest upon them being made aware of the situation.

    On how all the above is described, if I was on a protest committee where this information was presented, I'd seriously consider initiating a protest against both competitors. Firstly, tacking inside the 3 boat lengths is dangerous when in the vicinity of other boats and needs to be stamped out, second your verbal behaviour and aggression following the incident is unacceptable and also needs to be stamped out, finally you also failed to lodge a valid protest as did the other competitor. Whilst someone said that the other skipper was trying to intimidate you, I'd say the reverse with you calling him a big baby, I have less of an issue over the use of the F word when in the context used.

    I'd be more tempted to blow both of you from the race and for simplicity I'd do it over the tacking incident and lack of a valid protest, rather than the more messy (from the perspective of the official requirements involved) rule 69 incident.

    If you lodge a protest you stand a 50/50 chance of surviving. If a protest is lodged against you, you chances of surviving drops to 33%. It's better to avoid getting into the situation in the first place or doing your turns (and then protesting if you feel you were in the right).
     
  13. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Since we are now in the "what would I do with the two ninnies..." mode..
    I know exactly what I would do and I have done it.....

    I would take both offenders aside and try to explain this is a game. it is supposed to be fun. There are rules. People get upset when they are competing. there is acceptable behavior and stupid dumbass behavior.

    each person is well aware he played outside the rules or reacted like a ninny. ..or both...

    Since both showed the ability to be unsportsmanlike..but both have already shown a big interest in sailing, , I would suggest they become best friends, play the sailing agme as the sportsmen they know how to be, and enjoy the rest of their lives.

    If I were the judge in the protest room?? the hearing would not last long...

    My first attempt would be to get both parties to blow of any official action and act like sportsmen and solve the issue between them...and never ever let it happen again.

    If after continued attempts to get the two parties to act like adult sportsmen, I would recommend they get the hell out of the sport...then I would get up and walk out before I punched one or both of them.

    People who insist on uing the "cops" when rational adults could easily solve the problem really irritate me.

    Somebody else would have to preside over any hearing two nutcases like that would want to have held.

    Which is exactly why I don't go to protest hearings anymore.

    Protest hearings are generally caused by idiots. and always presided over by people who have better things to do with their lives.

    The race aleady happened and no hearing will ever add to the fun I already had



    I have plenty of pickle dishes and never will find enough time to hang out with my friends.

    .
     
  14. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Not having the rules to hand, I thought Rule 69 used the word Gross (i.e. your offence has to a major and significant). The use of F... or Big Baby is not really Gross (just work on a building site for 20 mins). How many parents have told their 4 year old children they are being "a big baby" and yet Social Services routinely fail to act on this and to my knowledge have never yet taken any children into care due to this "Gross Abuse" and if a 4 year old kid can take it I would hope a 45+ year old can survive without too much therapy.

    Re: your own protest about the tacking "but I thought he did 720 on the next leg". After an incident you cannot be expected to watch every move of the offender. Thus, a Committee initiated protest over a failure to protest would be unproductive. In my experience protest committees like to avoid protests. I had to sit on a protest committee in Cork week one year and one major incident (several boats protesting the race committee) and we all wanted to throw it out even though the Race Committee was technically wrong. Decided desire to go along with the spitit of the sport rather that the technical detail (in the end I seem to remember we found against the Race Committee and awarded the protesting boats some trivial time compensation that changed none of the results).

    It is a competitive sport, people get a bit wound-up and after the race is over, it is over. Maybe they shouldn't but it happens and a few exchanged words is an aspect of the sport.

    Maybe there are cultural effects happening here. When I lived in France, about 6 months after moving there I was out to dinner on the night the French rejected the EU Constitution - and the arguments. People shouting at each other, arm waving, scary stuff. Then once the discussion was over, everybody best of friends and life goes on. No apologies, no "lets agree to differ", no kisses and make-up. It was just accepted that you can have an argument without needing to be enemies and without the need to resort to physical aggression. Maybe different cultures have different thresholds on these things.

    Ian
    (Sorry I'm going on on this thread, but it is something I feel strongly about. We can get over-sensitive sometimes.)
     
  15. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    What's acceptable in one situation is not necessarily acceptable in another. Go tell a police officer or a judge to F' off or that they're a big baby might get a completely different response to what would occur on a building site. From my understanding from discussions with IJ's, ISAF is wanting to move to a zero tolerance on swearing and bad sportsmanship, while I doubt it will ever be policeable, I'm still strongly in favour of seeing the standards of behaviour on and off the water improve in our sport.
     
  16. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    I think we are in broad agreement on the issue of sportsmanlike behaviour. I think we differ on where that line be drawn. I tend to think we live in the real world and sometimes people can get a bit frustrated and words slip out. Maybe they shouldn't but it happens, the race goes on and fun can be had by all. To introduce a rule that cannot be policed can only result in inconsistency which is a lot worse than drawing that line is a sensible place. People (most) curse; sometimes at themselves, sometimes at others and sometimes justifiable. Rules have to be practical and enforceable and allow people to have fun. Nobody is hurt or damaged by the occasional swear word. Swearing has little to do with bad sportsmanship (anybody might get irritated when somebody breaks the rules and messes-up their race and expressing that verbally is really not an issue).

    With a zero tolerance of swearing I can see where our sport would go - have a club race followed by 3 weeks of protest hearings whilst each utterance is analysed and penalised. America's Cup might take decades in courts to sort things out :)

    Ian
     
  17. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    I'm in full agreeance. Zero tolerance is unpoliceable and should not be invoked. There is a balance, but where it is will always be difficult to determine, both for competitors but also juries. However, the level of sportsmanship has severely dropped in sailing, I suppose it's because of an atitude that there are cattle stations/ranches/farms up for grabs. Gone are the days that you do penalty turns because you thought you might have infringed someone or touched a mark, instead you wait for someone to call protest who you know might protest.

    :)
     
  18. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    I am with Alan on this one. Many years ago I used to be a hothead and was always getting myself involved in incidents and occasionally involved in arguments on the water. I appreciate in the heat of a race it can be hard to keep a cool head. Just simply shout 'Protest' and let that be the end of it. Ignore anything they might say and concentrate on sailing the race as fast as you can. You lose more time and distance by arguing the toss on the water because you are distracted from what you should be doing.

    I do always call protest if I am infringed and then have a quiet word after the race with the other person. If it cannot be resolved that way then I do follow it through. Purely for my peace of mind that I have got the rules correct.

    In my opinion swearing on the water within earshot of other boats whilst racing is a cardinal sin and should be stamped out. There are far too many excuses made for bad and anti-social behaviour. I have called protest on another competitor who was delivering a tirade of expletives to another boat. he did apologise to myself and the other competitor sincerely after the race.

    We all agree to be bound by the rules when we sign on to compete.

    Just my 2p....
     
  19. Kratos

    Kratos Member

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    I hope you're not including a crew swearing amongst themselves...
     
  20. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    I am...but if they are being quiet about it then it is no problem. The lake I sail on you can hear someone shout from the far side on a still day. We also have lots of family and youth members so I feel we should lead by example.

    FWIW I do occasionally curse to myself when I have made a silly error (normally resulting in a swim).
     

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