Iraq?

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by Goonie, Nov 5, 2002.

  1. CDN Sailor

    CDN Sailor New Member

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    It has not been proven that Iraq indeed has nuclear weapons. With the crude technology that they have it would take months to enrich enough uranium to make a working bomb.
    Last time I checked Iraq was not involved in the terrorist attacks of September 11. The US has provided no hardcore evidence that they were. And how exactly is Iraq going to drop nuclear weapons in my or your backyard?
    Instead of taking out governments that are widely supported in their respective countries due to personal opinion and bias, which in the end causes more hatred of the US, the United States of America should work on their foreign policy to reduce hatred in the countries, that do indeed hate the United States.
    The only way a country can be truly safe is if all countries not on the US big ally list, which isn't so big with this issue, cease to exist. That would take out almost the entire world.
     
  2. kwilson

    kwilson New Member

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    Only a matter of months ago there was a significant case of what was then called a "dirty" bomb. A bomb with radio active material that can be constructed on site and has the ability to inflict significant damage / casualties. These are the type of threats that the US are concerned protecting against. Am I worried that Iraq is going to "drop" a bomb in the literal sense.....no, but nobody ever expected two aircraft to be hijacked and flown into the WTC either. It is true that there is no direct concrete evidence supporting the claim that Iraq had anything to do with 911....and I am not making the claim that they are either. However it is widely recognized, and founded by American as well as British secret services that certain factions within the Iraqi government have supported terrorist, terrorism and anti-American sentiment for years. The American government has, for many years, been reactive to such bold threats and only since 911 have they decided to be proactive hence the push against Iraq and it's "policies". We (USA) had the opportunity to "replace" the Iraqi government years ago for obvious complicit behavior and did not instead allowing the United Nations to perform their diplomatic duty; which the Iraqi government has scoffed at time and time again. Our own government has tried for years, via diplomatic means, to deal with the "Saddam Regime" and has failed ....over and over to "reduce the hatred".

    The ideals and freedoms that the United States and Canada enjoy is what people envy. The government policies that countries like Iraq enforce, with a vengeance, on its own people through scare tactics and violence all the wile pointing the suppressive finger at the US reek of fascism and dictatorship. The regulation of such obvious unstable "dictatorships" is the only way to ensure that innocent people do not die; most of all the Iraqi people that do not support Saddam but cower in fear and oppression. I believe that empathy is a lost feeling, unless you have ever experienced what we (US) are going through you really have no idea what it's like. Only when 911 occurred did the US really understand what Israel has been going through for so long.

    As for the support of other countries; public opinion is not high and this is understandable.....most threatened military action is not supported. How long do we wait for the diplomatic process to work. Our (Canada & US) sanctions against oppressive countries inflict pain and suffering on the people of these countries and without a flinch from their respective governments......as long as they can sit in their castles and get fat they could care less that their people starve. This is obviously not the answer; to threaten the root of this evil with military force is the only way. To garner support from "protected" countries means nothing, only action from a scorn leader will win against evil in the end.
     
  3. Bradley

    Bradley Administrator Staff Member

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    Great discussion....Lets move it out of Juniors though....
     
  4. CDN Sailor

    CDN Sailor New Member

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    Thankyou kwilson for responding with an accurate response. In fact I agree with 80% of your points. What I was trying to do was to get people to think why it should be done and not just follow what other people say should happen.
    In my opinion having an opinion based on someone elses is a very dangerous thing to have around. It is obvious that you (kwilson) have thought about the issue and have come to a sane and rational response.

    Now to stop this pro US/ anti US topic
    what do you all think about the UN's acceptance of the new resolution about Iraq. What do you think the US and the World should do now. Obviously we should wait the 1 month period in which Iraq has to disarm, but what after?
     
  5. Bradley

    Bradley Administrator Staff Member

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    Ken, thats an amazing story. You are in the same situation as the class president, Ryan, who was working in downtown NYC when it happened. I tend to agree with Ken. We must protect ourselves so that we don't have another Sept. 11.
     
  6. kwilson

    kwilson New Member

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    Thank You. I think that the ball is in Saddam's court. If he fully complies with the UN I think that the US may let him go. But for how long...?? He (Saddam) is so irrational that its only a matter of time before it all starts up again.....or worse he attacks and people die. He was just "elected", unanomously, by his people to continue his terrany. I wonder what happened to the people that voted for the other guy.....was there even an another guy?

    I only hope that the terrorist of this world are watching and see that the US is taking it seriously this time. I don't think we are going to lay down this time.

    More later.....I'm going home.
     
  7. CDN Sailor

    CDN Sailor New Member

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    Bradley I disagree. I think that you must go into Iraq for the good of mankind. Saying to go in to protect ourselves is selfish. You should be going in to stop the injustice that is occuring in the country, and protect EVERYONE from the possible threat.
     
  8. Bradley

    Bradley Administrator Staff Member

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    This is also true, and yet another reason we should go into Iraq. I by no means disagree in anyway with an attack on iraq.
     
  9. CDN Sailor

    CDN Sailor New Member

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    On the ballot where Saddam was the only candidate it was a YES or NO option.
    However if I were taking that vote I would put yes whether or not I agreed.

    PS: I do have some knowledge of the pain that you are all going through. My sister lives in NYC and was in NYC on September 11th and for a few hours I did not know where she was. So don't just think I'm some person without feelings or emotions speculating on things he knows nothing about.
     
  10. Goonie

    Goonie Guest

    Why was it moved out of Juniors? I had it there for a reason. I wanted to see what other young people had to say, and see if they just 'spat' out what they heard on tv!
     
  11. Goonie

    Goonie Guest

    "Only a matter of months ago there was a significant case of what was then called a "dirty" bomb."
    The bomb wasn't in Iraq. They found all the plans in Afghanistan!

    "It is true that there is no direct concrete evidence supporting the claim that Iraq had anything to do with 911....and I am not making the claim that they are either. However it is widely recognized, and founded by American as well as British secret services that certain factions within the Iraqi government have supported terrorist, terrorism and anti-American sentiment for years."

    Terrorist in Al-queda would have nothing to do with the Iraqi regime for one reason and one reason only! Saddam doesn't follow Islam the way they do. He is not religous! Now, for a minute, think about all the people the United States has killed in Iraq. All the neighboors, children, mothers, fathers. With the sanctions imposed, Iraqis couldn't even get basic medicine to keep them alive. All the bombings done by the US. To the Iraqi people, Saddam is an angel compared to the US.

    "The American government has, for many years, been reactive to such bold threats and only since 911 have they decided to be proactive hence the push against Iraq and it's "policies". We (USA) had the opportunity to "replace" the Iraqi government years ago for obvious complicit behavior and did not instead allowing the United Nations to perform their diplomatic duty; which the Iraqi government has scoffed at time and time again. "

    Would the US allow Iraq and the UN to search american military secrets? Remember the time the US was friends with Saddam. The US has a HORRIBLE reputation of putting dictators in place and supporting them, then dropping them, and finding ways to 'get' them. Would you like any examples? Why doesn't the US go invade Israel for ignoring MANY UN resolutions on settlements in the occupied territories?


    "Our own government has tried for years, via diplomatic means, to deal with the "Saddam Regime" and has failed ....over and over to "reduce the hatred"."

    I have told you why Iraqis hate you, now I will tell you why people like Osama hate you. YOU ARE IN SAUDIA ARABIA! One of the most scraced place in the Islam religion.

    "The ideals and freedoms that the United States and Canada enjoy is what people envy. The government policies that countries like Iraq enforce, with a vengeance, on its own people through scare tactics and violence all the wile pointing the suppressive finger at the US reek of fascism and dictatorship. The regulation of such obvious unstable "dictatorships" is the only way to ensure that innocent people do not die; most of all the Iraqi people that do not support Saddam but cower in fear and oppression. I believe that empathy is a lost feeling, unless you have ever experienced what we (US) are going through you really have no idea what it's like. Only when 911 occurred did the US really understand what Israel has been going through for so long. "

    You are right, they are not free. But as we have learned in the past, Western countries CANNOT get involved in the process of the people FREEING themselves in the middle east. They will get to democracy in their own way and time and the US should not interven in the middle east whatsoever. Not in Saudia Arabia even.


    Seth
     
  12. Bradley

    Bradley Administrator Staff Member

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    I know, but to many non-juniors started participating.
     
  13. sui805

    sui805 New Member

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    More than 100'000 European citizien protested today in Italy against the plans of Goerge W. Bush. I just want to say that there are many people out there who don't like at all what Bush is doing. And not all of those people live in countries like Iraq or Afghanistan.
    The "axis of evil" seems to get bigger and bigger. Bush might have to include most European countries to the "axis of evil" pretty soon. So you might have to think about what the risks of attacking Iraq are. Even if you kill Saddam, do you really believe that it will change a lot? The hate against America in Iraq is big. And you can't destroy hate with a few cruise missiles or some tanks. The hate will stay in the people. Unless you're planning to eliminate all people who live in the Balkan area, your war against Iraq wouldn't help a bit to reach peace and freedom. And I don't think (and hope) that you're going to kill everyone down there. But you might get your oil, and sometimes it seems that's all what's important to your president in the white house...

    Bradley: You were talking about protecting your language, why don't you start protecting your language by learning how to spell... My English isn't perfect at all but it's not my first language.

    So, you might say that I'm just a young Swiss guy who hasn't got an idea about what's going on in America and in the world. But remember, the USA might be big and powerfull, they are the only real superpower in the world at the moment, but as such you also have to act responsibly and you can't just do whatever you want. Otherwise there'll be another September 11th for sure...
     
  14. phantomdarkness

    phantomdarkness New Member

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    ok, time to post the papere i wrote

    Reasons to Bomb Iraq

    Although Iraq may not appear to be in any way dangerous to some people, in reality, it is perhaps one of the most dangerous nations in the world. Iraq has said, and UN weapons inspectors have shown that Iraq does indeed posses both Chemical weapons, and is on their way to making a nuclear device of some kind. If Iraq gets their hands on a nuclear weapon, there are many different options open to them. The first, and most obvious, is to use it against a nation. The only problem with this is, there really isn’t a nation around Iraq that it could use a nuclear weapon on. The only target is Israel. But, however, if Iraq were to use a nuclear weapon against Israel, two things most likely would happen. First of all, Iraq would be immediately in danger for the use of a nuclear weapon. Secondly, Iraq would quickly be invaded in retaliation by Israel, and Israel would just as quickly be supported by the United States and the rest of Israel’s allies. Israel may even use one of their nuclear weapons against Iraq. Clearly, this is not a real use for the bomb if Saddam Hussein were to get one. Another choice is to hold it against the possibility of an invasion. This too, however, is not likely because the United States has stated that if Iraq uses a nuclear weapon against ground forces, the United States will retaliate with nukes too. The only option left open for Iraq is to use the bomb as blackmail against other nations, getting what they want out of its serious threat. The most terrible possibilities of Iraq having a bomb is that they give the weapon, or the information how to make a weapon of mass destruction to terrorists. This would be catastrophic to the world. Clearly, Saddam Hussein and Iraq cannot be trusted with a bomb.
    Despite all of the possibilities, people are still saying that they need proof that Iraq has nuclear weapons. I say, “WHY?!” We know that Hussein wants nuclear weapons, we know that he has an advanced nuclear program, we know that he is crazy enough to want to use it on invading forces, so why not get rid of that possibility? Some people also say that, “Why should we care? There is no real likelihood that Saddam can reach us.” My response is, “Why are you so self-centered?” This is not a matter that concerns just the United States, it affects possibly the whole world if Iraq teaches terrorists to build nukes. Invasion, people say is not the right answer.
    The people who are anti-invasion have many reasons they believe are correct. One of these reasons is that they believe that many civilians will die. In response to this, look at the Afghanistan campaign. Less than 1,000 civilians died, and those are heavily weighted in favor of higher numbers. In reality, the only civilian causalities that are likely to occur will be when Iraq places civilians around their military bases so that the United States does not bomb them. This is a despicable act, on par with what Saddam Hussein has done to his people as well. Hussein has gassed to death thousands of his own people, the Kurds most notably, and has oppressed the Turkomans and other sects of Iraq. This alone is a major breach of crimes against Humanity, and Hussein should be arrested and brought before a international court hearing, just like Slobadon Milosavich (Spelling?) was. Now, because the United States does not wish to have any civilian casualties, they will double and triple check the targets that they bomb.
    There are those people who believe that the UN weapons inspectors should be allowed back into Iraq to continue weapons inspections to another chance to Iraq. There is, however, one problem with this to me. Iraq has been given several chances. They signed the treaty with the UN saying that they would stop their nuclear weapons program, and would begin to dismantle their weapons that they already had. Iraq tapped the rooms that the inspectors stayed in so that they could hear where they were going next, and move all illegal substances and such away before the inspectors arrived. Also, 11 Presidential Palaces were declared a no-inspection zone, which includes over 12 square miles, where practically anything can be stored without anyone knowing about its existence besides the Iraqi government. Because of this, the weapons inspecting was not as effective as the UN had intended. Iraq kicked out the weapons inspectors in 1998, which was a breach of the treaty they signed, and so they have now gone approximately 3 years and 11 months without any form of inspection of their arms. The United States has no idea what Iraq may posses as far as weapons of mass destruction.
    Because of all the evil things that Iraq has done, there is no choice but invasion. I would hate to invade, but there is no other option available. If the United States agrees to allow UN inspectors into Iraq, they are sending a message that the United States can be stopped, and this would cause many other nations to “rebel” against the United States. Therefore, the United States must send a message to Iraq and to the rest of the world that they will not be crossed.
     
  15. chris

    chris New Member

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    iraq

    all i have to say is that americans are war junkies and george w. bush is lacking in the brains department
     
  16. Bradley

    Bradley Administrator Staff Member

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    instead of just calling Americans names, why don't you back up your claim.
     
  17. kwilson

    kwilson New Member

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    Re: iraq


    Your missing the point.!!!


    It's not about Iraq....its about the message that you give those who are sympathetic to their cause.

    If you lay down when someone walks into your house and kills your family you set a dangerous presedent; they will eventually realize that you are weak and will attack at will. But if you do the opposite and show strength and are proactive then the message is clear.

    We must realize that the actions in Afghanistan, via Al-Queda, represent a small portion of organized terror factions in the world. Even in its suprisingly organized abilities they are poorly funded and organized in comparison to what a highly organized aniti - American country like Iraq can be and is. This is why Americans must do what we are doing.


    Actually the US has offered more in releaf than any other country....by far; and mostly to countries that we are in conflict with...ie Afghanistan, and Iraq during desert storm. . This is widely known.!! I am actually suprised to see a response opposing this well known fact.

    As for the rest I am weary of defending a ritous position.

    "all i have to say is that americans are war junkies and george w. bush is lacking in the brains department."

    I guess everone's entitled to their oppinion. It must be nice to sit in the relative shadow of the predominant super power of the world. !!! :mad: However we will be supressing no oppinions here today.
     
  18. chris

    chris New Member

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    iraq

    last time i checked this was a sailing form not wolf blitzers war room. americans super power? your economy is going down the drains, your president as i said earlier is a moron. iraq poses no present threat to americans, why doesn't george w. go after north korea, thay have admited to possesing nukes and they are an anti american state one of the axis of evil i belive. also attacking iraq will take attention away from afganastan where the real war on terror takes place. with that said if america goes to war with iraq i hope that saddam lays a beating on you punks while canada beats you on the laser course.
     
  19. Bradley

    Bradley Administrator Staff Member

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    I hate wolf blitzer I myself am a Sean Hannity fan! Live weekdays 3-6 on radio and at night at 9 on the Fox News Channel

    The president is working with Korea as well and Afghanistan. The United States is capable of doing more than one thing at once.
     
  20. kwilson

    kwilson New Member

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    Re: iraq


    Chris,

    Lets keep away from the direct counrty bashing.....thats when things start to get ugly.

    Thanks
     

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